Tesla's Model 3 cheaper than Toyota's Camry in California with tax benefits | Hacker News Reader

Tesla's Model 3 cheaper than Toyota's Camry in California with tax benefits

reuters.com

57 pointsbelltaco64 comments

Buying a Tesla Model 3 with a $7,500 tax credit is tempting, except you're still paying over $40,240, plus $1,390 destination fee, plus $250 "order fee" at $41,880 before tax and registration(!!) for a compact executive car to later receive a deduction on your tax liability.

Then you need a wall connector, and you'll of course want a mobile connector, and you'll need to call your electrician if you have one, or else you'll need to search for one and have the wall connector install at an undetermined market rate.

Don't forget insurance; you'll want full coverage.

Oh and after that, that's all just the base model, without Tesla screwing you for another $6,000 for Enhanced Autopilot, or $15,000 for Full Self-Driving Capability.

You're still spending all of that money. It's not like these credits immediately apply at the point of purchase.

Just buy a Toyota Corolla. It too will steer itself on streets and highways, and Toyota doesn't hype their self-driving by calling it autopilot.

> Don't forget insurance; you'll want full coverage.

Most people in the US buy cars with loans and don't have a choice about insurance. So I don't see any point involving that in the comparison.

> Then you need a wall connector, and you'll of course want a mobile connector, and you'll need to call your electrician

I don't yet have an EV, but I expect to buy one soon... so I've been thinking about this scenario.

* While not optimal, charging from a common 120v will likely get you 30-40m of range. That would be fine for me since I don't drive much.

* For those of us with electric clothes dryers in their garage with 240v power - it's possible to use an adapter to plug directly in or for $200-300 purchase a smart splitter device that disables the dryer and routes power to the car.

Personally I like the idea of not needing to wait for my car to warm up - not everyone does this, but I'm into cars and try to take good care of mine. And I like the idea of not needing to waste time going to gas stations - for the foreseeable future I will have an ICE car for very long trips and towing, but expect to have an EV and almost only charge at home. Very rarely would I ever need to use public charging facilities.

One thing I don't like about EVs is the trend toward paying extra for self-driving features. I'm very much against idea of SaaS/monthly fees for that.

What makes you think warming up a car is good for a newer car?

It warms the oil. My BMW tells me when it’s OK to start driving.

Note this does not warm the transmission fluid. So it’s still good to take it easy the first few minutes of driving.

Right, but why do you think this is useful for a modern car.

> Most people in the US buy cars with loans and don't have a choice about insurance. So I don't see any point involving that in the comparison.

often times this cost multiples of gas car

> I don't yet have an EV, but I expect to buy one soon... so I've been thinking about this scenario.

definitely check your future insurance rate to avoid surprises

I wonder how many solar panels does one need to stop depending on the grid, and on the fuel. The car would have to be parked next to the installation for a significant portion of the day though.

Charging a long range electric car dwarfs normal home usage - maybe equivalent to a weeks worth of home usage. To cover it practically you'd need a really large solar installation.

On just one point, you probably don’t need a wall connector. An electrical outlet will do. Unless that’s what you meant with the scary wording?

Obviously 220/240 is faster than 110/120, but whatever you have, adding a fancy wall connector won’t make it faster.

A mobile connector cable 25 feet long and with some high tech circuit protection in it runs $200, and is all you need. No installation. It comes with common plug adapters or if you have a really strange wall outlet you can buy other adapters as a set or on an individual basis.

Only outlet in reach already occupied by something you absolutely can’t unplug? Well then gosh you do have something to figure out. Maybe you do need an electrician in that case. If your 220 is already used by a dryer, don’t overlook nearby 110s.

In short it’s worth mentioning that not everyone is going to need a wall connector installation.

A proper wall box charges twice as fast as a plug in adapter. For cars with larger range this is likely to be a pretty significant difference (requires a full day to charge vs can charge overnight).

Not true. It all depends on the circuit that backs the plug in adapter or “proper” wall box. A proper slow wall connector or box as you call it can be slower than a high amperage plug. Just slapping a box around the plug won’t make it faster. And if you are going to do upgrades for installing a box, you can just as easily do the same upgrades to the same power for the same charging speed at less cost by simply upgrading the circuit and the plug (not that even that is needed usually). Adding the box after this does not make it faster. Just aesthetically more impressive looking.

Perhaps it depends on region or perhaps you're referring to driving plugs outside of standard? Where I am a normal plug can drive around 3kw while a dedicated circuit drives about 7kw (both for single phase, more for 3 phase). When we had the dedicated circuit fitted it needed to sense the load from the rest of the house so it could dynamically back off to stay within our overall safe limits. Obviously I'm not saying that putting a box around something magically makes it better, I'm saying that something that plugs into a standard domestic plug (which is what I thought you were taking about) will not supply power at the same rate and that difference can be significant for charging times.

it's not scary wording if people _need_ the range to commute or to have peace of mind. there _are_ considerations needed for the EV transition and many people don't know much about voltage at all so it's important to share that.

i just bought an EV and am super keen about it, but it's important to be educated.

This is a pretty weird headline. Why single out one car at random, and not even the car with the most impressive discount? Even after these rebates the Model 3 is still kind of pricey. The Chevy Bolt goes for $11,500 if the customer can claim the full rebate, which is a ridiculously low price for any new car.

what? The bolt is like ~27k for a base model, and then you get like 10k max from the government bringing you to 17k?

where is the last 5-6k coming from?

FTA: The CA+US credits total 15k max.

27k-15k =12k ~ 11.5k.

the CA rebate depends on which income bracket you fall within.

I didn't know the details so just looked it up. Sharing here for others who don't know...

The federal credit seems to have a single income threshold to get full credit or no credit at $150k single/$300k married. There is a base CA rebate at $135k single/$200k married.

But there is a lower threshold to get what they refer to as the "increased" $7.5k rebate. This is set by household income rather than simply single or married filing status. The household income threshold is around $54k/$73k/$92k/$111k for households of 1/2/3/4 persons and this included roommates sharing an address.

It seems to me that these limits exclude most Californians who are typically going to be buying new cars, whether Corolla or Model 3. Or is the used car market still so broken that they don't really have choices?

Bolt has been discontinued, so it's not a great example vehicle.

Model 3 is the best selling EV. Camry has been the best selling sedan in the US for decades. Pretty reasonable comparison (despite the size difference. Model 3 is more Corolla size).

>Bolt has been discontinued, so it's not a great example vehicle.

No, it will be discontinued. That's not the same.

No surprise; Chevy dislikes making good cars.

They have already closed the book on dealer orders. It's dead.

Not as far as I can tell. My dealer is still getting them in.

Dealers are still getting deliveries. They can’t ask for new allocations, which is what the order book is. GM will keep manufacturing them until the end of the year but if a dealer doesn’t already have allocations coming in they won’t be able to get one for a customer.

Because the Camry is a pretty classic example of a car that goes forever and maintains its value. If someone wanted to replace their sedan for an electric one, the Model 3 is the closest bang for their buck they can get, and is also one of the top (right behind the Model Y) EVs in the US.

Granted the Model S is the real Sedan counterpart to the Camry, but I think it's interesting that a Camry is now at the point where it's more expensive than a Tesla. That was unimaginable to me years ago.

Because the Camry is the best selling car (sedan) in America, and has been for a long time

In Canada a Tesla 3 with all wheel drive (Canada eh!) will run you $65,000 plus 13% sales tax.

A new Mercedes e-class sedan with all wheel drive is $69,000 plus tax.

If I had $69,000 plus tax to spend on a car (I do not) there would be no contest.

i wanted an EV sedan/not suv and didn't really want a tesla. the options were mustang mach-e, tesla m3, cheyy bolt, gmp (hyundai ioniq / kia ev6) but tbh there were a lot of tradeoffs between each car. i don't need 800V charging, i'm pretty anti-elon, and the mach-e was too slow for L2. i've driven in an ioniq and just wasn't a big fan.

then i discovered the bmw i4 and fell in love, bought one, and am glad to say i made the right decision. the driving assist is legit awesome and the car feels just like a regular 4 series

But Toyota is a real car with real controls while Tesla has a steering wheel and a monitor.

Yes but Tesla has FSD. If you can't swipe around and find the defrost control, it doesn't matter because you don't need to see out the window.

I'm like 99% sure this comment is satirical, but that 1% uncertainty is bothering me.

It's satirical but also true. I have a tesla model y. I only use the autopilot feature to quickly take over when I'm going into the U/I to do something complicated... like adjusting the window wipers (buttons are too small for me to hit accurately at speed).

“complicated”

You have a physical wiper button on the stalk that brings up the UI without fail. One physical press.

And you can learn to adjust the UI for wipers with muscle memory since they always are in the same position by the closest corner after you just push the physical button once.

You can grasp the corner and press a remembered spot on the UI. The buttons don’t jump around. Maybe you won’t do this on day 1, granted, but you can do it.

> You have a physical wiper button on the stalk that brings up the UI without fail. One physical press.

It's pretty amazing how many Tesla drivers don't know this is a thing. There's even an icon on the stalk for it.

That said, Tesla is getting rid of stalks, so that's going away.

It’s probably moving to a button on the steering wheel. Or they’ll add more sensors for auto mode in cars without stalks, or both.

In Los Angeles, it's easy to tell when a Tesla is using AP or FSD: is the car driving erratically, like a drunk teenager on a learner's permit? If so, AP/FSD is engaged and one must avoid being within 100 yards of the vehicle, especially if you're driving a big rig, since Tesla's vision is still unable to identify big rigs.

Literally not true.

The hate brigade is still on Reddit.

Literally true, the number of Teslas getting into accidents in the LA area is legion; by automaker it's probably the single most represented car manufacturer in the Los Angeles area.

New M3 owner here. Honestly most of the things I do are physical controls. I was surprised.

but but... the Tesla has a REAL monitor!

From my understanding most other manufacturers either have slim margins, or are losing money on every EV sold. I sometimes worry that Tesla will dominate the EV market, as it's extremely difficult to compete at the current price point of the 3/Y.

I have a MYP and think it's an insane bang for the buck - to the point where I'm considering getting another.

nope. what i expect will happen is that proper car manufactures are going to move into EVs and make them cost effective. Tesla is vaporware compared to a BMW or a Ford.

What do you mean by 'nope'? Ford is losing money on EVs and said their EVs won't be profitable till late 2026.

I mean that the quality is so poor in teslas that I would not call them a car the same way I think of a car that is a ford.

This is good because there will be people who can afford to get an EV now, who might have gotten something else. I almost worry that Tesla's success and ability to lower prices to increase sales will discourage legacy auto, but GM does have those new SUVs coming out this year that are 30 to 40k before incentives.

How does the tax credit work? Do you need to earn enough to be paying 15k in taxes, to actually get it?

It actually has income limits. But assuming you make under the limit, it would reduce your tax burden by 7500

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-elect...

You need a garage to charge an EV. How many homeowners are under the income limit?

The federal credit is nonrefundable. In the case of CA at least it appears you could have enough tax to get the full credit while still being under the income cap. In other states such as PA it's likely not possible to have enough tax to get the full federal credit while also qualifying for the state credit.

How come I don't see any older (Model S) Teslas on the road? What happened to all of them?

Tesla didn't sell nearly as many of them. up to 2020 Tesla sold admit 250k model S globally. for comparison, that's about as many as model Ys produced in the first quarter of 2023. Tesla has produced about 3 million model 3s and xs since 2020 so if you see a Tesla, it's only about a 1 in 12 of being a pre 2020 model S.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks!

Wonder what are the prices in secondary market then?

how hard is it to get the tax credit? Do you only get it as a refund the next year after filing?

Yes*, but you could reduce your payroll withholdings now to effectively take home part of the rebate in each of your paychecks (at the cost of a smaller refund/larger payment due at tax filing time).

When we bought in Dec 2014, it was no great pain to just claim the credit a few months later at filing. If I was buying earlier in the year, I probably would have adjusted withholdings.

the Camry's value is in resale

I actually wonder about this. I know other electric cars had terrible resale value, but doesn't the model 3 have a good resale value?

With all the price cuts I doubt it

You don't get the dealer markup back on resale

Oh, I just meant that I buy used

How’s the Model 3’s build quality and reliability now? I used to follow it more closely but gave up when it seemed apparent that they weren’t taking those things seriously more than a year into production.

Much as I’d love to go electric, if I were in the market for a new car right now, I wouldn’t cross-shop a car famous for its longevity with a Model 3.

AFAIK Chinese-made Teslas are fine.

EVs have pretty good longevity. The powertrain has fewer moving parts and isn’t exposed to air and vibrations.

Tesla’s batteries generally age well, with 1-2% capacity loss per year. It’s gradual decline, they don’t just die.

Also I’m hopeful that in 10-15 years when it’s time to replace the battery, there will be cheap upgrade options already available. This has happened with Leaf – it launched with a 24kWh pack, and a decade later you can get 40kWh for the same price, and there’s 64kWh option.

It's more accurate to plot battery degradation as a function of miles, not time.

And from what I've seen, 1% per 10,000 miles seems to be a common measure. So after 150,000 miles, you might lose ~15%.

I dunno about you, but I wouldn't replace the battery just from 15% degradation. Even if I was, I'd be more likely to just buy a new car at that point.

at what point in time (or after how many miles) does the battery must be replaced? does the weather the car is driven in matter on battery life?

That's an individual judgement call. If you don't go on road trips, then even 50% degradation (representing over 500,000 miles of usage, an absolutely absurd number for someone that doesn't do road trips!) still leaves you with a usable car.

I don't know how weather affects battery life. I know that very cold weather reduces charging speeds, but I don't know if it reduces the life. The battery is liquid-cooled, so temperatures are still controlled in hot climates.

Generally, replacing the battery is not something any Tesla owner needs to worry about. Outside of failures that are typically discovered within the first year or 10,000 miles (and therefore covered by warranty), the battery will last FAR longer than any typical car. How many cars are driven past 300,000 miles?

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