Tesla Doubles Down on Model 3 Price, Now Among Cheapest EVs | Hacker News Reader

Tesla Doubles Down on Model 3 Price, Now Among Cheapest EVs

forbes.com

37 pointsbelter47 comments

With state credit included, you can buy a Model 3 for ~28k in Colorado [1]

There are a lot of reasons why Tesla is cheaper (Elon's risk of running Tesla for a loss for many years but investing in battery capacity and other supply chains has paid off, IMHO), but some fault lies with manufacturers for not realizing that manufacturing complexity [2] needs to be reduced.

this mentality of "same chassis, just swap the engine for petrol/diesel/electric" cannot work. They need to start shaving grams every day, for both cost and increased battery capacity purposes, and they need to start thinking of EVs as a absolutely new product.

We have seen this before where android manufacturers treated tablets as "phones but bigger" and lost, where as Apple realized iPad needed separate attention and won.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXl2QO9SQfs

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CQfADbJr30

One thing I think tesla does much better than other manufacturers is they don't do a yearly lock of updates the same way other manufacturers do, though that can be slightly annoying when trying to figure out the exact configuration a car has as a consumer.

A bit like DeLorean in that way, but hopefully not too much.

>but some fault lies with manufacturers for not realizing that manufacturing complexity [2] needs to be reduced.

They absolutely realize that. The UAW realizes that as well which is why they're silently freaking out over the transition to electric because lots of union jobs will be rendered moot once the switch is complete and the number of steps that require jobs are reduced.

It's hard to understate how much wiggle room Tesla has with the amount of profit they have in each of their EVs compared to their competition.

Being a dealer and manufacturer really provides a lot of profit. Manufacturing that don’t have this are going to be at a huge disadvantage

Someone did a bill of materials, the margins are humongous compared to other brands.

The product itself costs less to make, significantly less.

I've been looking to buy a Tesla, however I want to get an insurance quote before I get a new vehicle. I went out to Teslas website, and their current inventory page has no VIN numbers whatsoever. Legacy auto manufacturers do this, and it's really frustrating that Tesla doesn't do this.

This is great. May be buying my first car in the next couple months and being able to splurge a little and get an electric vehicle would be wonderful

This is also crushes resell or trade in prices for current owners.

But it also means when they trade in for a new Tesla they are paying much less.

This is good for everyone except other automakers: new owners, existing owners if they choose to upgrade, and the environment. Every unit sold is likely to displace a combustion vehicle somewhere. Ship the metal!

EDIT: (comments throttled, have to reply here) wrt charging standard, was already a done deal when Ford agreed to NACS [1]. Between Tesla and Ford, they have enough market power to drag the rest of the market.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36105641

Also bad for non Tesla ev owners because Tesla chargers captures more of the market

with ford migrating to tesla chargers I hope others do too (speaking as a EV6 owner with CCS type 1 charger). They're very, very similar just sell me an adapter, transition will be slightly painful for existing cars but lead to better experience for everyone.

All my friends who own teslas all say they wouldn't buy another one.

Tesla's goose is cooked imo once other charging networks come online.

I wouldn't buy a Tesla regardless of the price point. Mostly because of their data connection to the mothership, but also because of the stories I've heard from the people I know who own Teslas.

So you're only going to drive cars from pre OnStar era?

I don’t know if you know, ALL Toyotas sold in last 3 years do the same.

My next vehicle will probably be a Toyota Sienna if I even bother to get another personal vehicle. Tempted to just go carless and rent when I need one. May change my tune if I have to go back to commuting any time soon.

> All my friends who own teslas all say they wouldn't buy another one.

I don't believe this is of material concern. Tesla is able to undercut every other automaker due to their robust margins and vertical efficiencies, and some legacy automakers are unlikely to survive the transition to EVs due to Tesla's lead and ramp rate. There is a buyer for every unit built, and the global auto market is ~66 million units/year. If there is softness in a market, they can quickly reallocate units to other markets.

It is unlikely other fast DC charging networks won't come online at scale, because there is no way to make them profitable. Building and supporting them is a marketing cost to sell EVs.

https://electrek.co/2023/05/25/tesla-model-y-is-now-the-worl...

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/22/tesla-just-passed-4-mil...

https://evannex.com/blogs/news/the-real-threat-to-legacy-aut...

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-con...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27906795

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36106271

I actually cancelled a Model 3 order and went with a Kia EV6 instead, but doesn't Tesla have the strongest brand loyalty?

https://insideevs.com/news/668470/tesla-best-brand-loyalty-o...

And how does it feel to pay more for less?

At the time, the EV6 was $4500 less. The EV6 has some advantages over the Model 3: USS, V2L, CarPlay, etc. The Model 3 of course has advantages of its own, but the Model 3 isn't the slam dunk leader that those emotionally invested in the vehicle suggest.

Model Y was about $6k USD cheaper here over Ioniq5/Ev6, but:

* has remote control app

* phone as a key

* autopilot

* heated steering wheel & seats

* power liftgate

* panoramic sunroof (which turned out a huge con)

For some reason hyundai/kia doesn’t have app nor it’s version of autopilot here. V2L is very nice feature, but I realise I’d use it maayyybe once a year. China made Teslas still have USS. Also turns out I didn’t need CarPlay - Teslas maps are good enough.

Now, or in September 2022? At the time I bought my EV6, the Model Y had an MSRP of $66k. My Model 3 I cancelled had an invoiced price of $56k. My EV6 was around $52k as I recall.

I'm not sure where you're getting that list from. (Perhaps you are looking at the "Light" trim, not the "Wind" trim) Kia has an app that allows me remote access (perhaps you're expecting a dedicated app; the Kia app is used for multiple models). It has a full suite of assisted driving, as most manufacturers do, that Tesla includes in "autopilot" (lane keep, adaptive cruise control, autobraking, etc). The seats are heated and cooled, and the steering wheel is heated. It has a power liftgate. The EV6 is available with a sunroof, but it has less headroom, so I opted for the version without.

There's features I wish the EV6 had, some that Tesla has, some that other vehicles like my wife's ID.4 has.

This was about 2 months ago in New Zealand. For some reason they don't have app or driver assist here. Yes all the features are available for even more $$$.

Prices as of today in NZD:

EV6 Air RWD 76,990

Tesla Model Y SR RWD 71,400

Looks like the trims are different; looking at the Kia NZ website, my model is closer to the Earth trim, which is listed at $99k NZD. I would agree the base Model Y is a better value than the base EV6, but once you start moving up the trim levels, it's not as mismatched.

According to this article, last summer the prices were closer (I assume it was a similar situation to the US, where EVs were hard to find due to demand)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/129019916/price-increases-f...

Obviously I'm not familiar with pricing dynamics of NZ, like tariffs, tax incentives, or the role that the dealer network plays in influences prices.

Yes Model Y price drops are very recent hence it's such a deal.

One more thing I forgot - base Air doesn't even have leather seats (not that I like Tesla's vegan leather).

For incentives - we do get $7100 rebate which doesn't even cover GST you pay for car, but it's something.

All my friends with Teslas say they love theirs!

They are everywhere, here in South Australia.

Model 3 and now Model Y are the number selling car.

Not sure of overall or in class, but either way, they sell very well.

And it isn’t down to the charging network as such. Tesla’s are just the best value prop and offer a very cool modern experience.

All Teslas owners I know have garages and have installed charges. Teslas are town and school run cars.

People hate service stations, garages and car dealers.

Teslas mean they almost never have to deal with those places again!

Tesla is in huge trouble. Must be why they have the best selling vehicle in the world

You would be out of your mind to pick a Corolla or Civic over the Model 3 today, especially with the dealer markups on the Corolla and Civic (and other traditional ICE vehicles)

Even with the full federal tax credit this is still 50% more expensive than a Corolla or Impreza. (Civics are hard to find at MSRP still.)

The Bolt would be a much, much better Corolla-killer if they weren’t discontinuing it soon in favor of $100,000 land yachts.

TCO is a better measure than upfront price alone. People don't want to buy golf carts (wrt the Bolt), sell what people will give you money for.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/04/tesla-model-3-lifecycle...

Why would depreciation be included in a calculation like that?

So if you buy a $40,000 car one day, and the next day it's worthless, your TCO is somehow $80,000? That makes no sense.

Oh, and there is no way the average owner is spending $5000 a year in maintenance and repairs in the first 5 years on a car like that. I've owned multiple new cars over the past decade, and I bet I've spent that much combined.

Pretty magical and convenient that this person was able to adjust the TCO down to be comparable though, isn't it? Amazing that anyone sensible would believe it.

The TCO comes down to gas savings (substantial) and a difference in maintenance costs (backloaded in the Tesla). Here that's less than $7k.

> there is no way the average owner is spending $5000 a year in maintenance and repairs in the first 5 years on a car like that

If I need to put $5000 in a year into the maintenance and repairs of any vehicle, I'm calling that vehicle a lemon and ditching is ASAP.

Are those low MSRP Corollas or Imprezzas something you can actually buy? I was car shopping last year and all the "entry level" sedans were priced at $35,000+.

2021-2022 was a wacky time for buying a car. For the EV I've been looking at, prices have gone from $10k above MSRP last year to $3k-$5k below now

You can get a new Hyundai Elantra off the lot for less than $25k CAD. That's sub-20K USD?

Not a car I'd be particularly excited about. But they're reliable, decent standard options and really good on fuel (had a rental achieving 4 l/100km on the highway).

>Even with the full federal tax credit this is still 50% more expensive than a Corolla or Impreza.

Precisely. How are people unaware of what cars cost? I guess it's because people live in a bubble and pass around the same handful of Eletrek articles.

If you're trying to save money, you will need to save a ton of fuel to make up the price of a cheap Toyota or Mazda car with a Tesla. Years and years worth. It's certainly not a "no brainer" decision.

And what do you think happens when governments decide to tack a surcharge on the energy your at-home charger is using to power your car. That's coming, believe it.

We just recently bought a Hyundai Kona electric. While it was a good 10K more than similarly sized ICE vehicles (and the ICE version of the Kona), our fuel savings are >$100/month, and our monthly payments for the comparable ICE vehicles was not 100 dollars cheaper. And that's completely ignoring savings after the vehicle is paid off. This may not be true for all vehicle types/price points, but for the type of vehicle we needed, the electric was cheaper for us to buy.

Now yes, if all you need is _a_ car, you can get the cheapest ICE car for significantly cheaper than the cheapest EV. But if you need a specific type of car, that's not always true. At least for new vehicles. Used EVs are barely a thing yet, and so if you are willing to buy used, then ICE vehicles likely become much cheaper again.

> You would be out of your mind to pick a Corolla or Civic over the Model 3 today

disagree. in Canada a model 3 base is still ~60k for delivery in 2 months. Civic is ~30k not sure how long for delivery tho.

>Civic is ~30k not sure how long for delivery tho

It's been a few months since I've been looking, but Civics were touch-and-go in Canada for a while. Dealers were getting a few a month, most spoken for. But you could get one.

At my local dealer they were asking more for used Civics than the new models. I couldn't do it.

The Canada market and buying power is so small it’s mostly irrelevant in economics discussions

Why? Personally, I find a Corolla or Civic to be a much more attractive car than a Tesla.

Bingo. I find the styling of Teslas to be so boring and same-y.

I also hate the design laziness of "only a central display panel", and I really, really want buttons and knobs.

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