Comment by yieldcrv | Hacker News Reader

Comment by yieldcrv | Hacker News Reader

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The stance isn’t about whether Howey can be applied literally everywhere

The stance is that applying it to digital tokens as unregistered securities means applying it to other places, like Nike shoes and baseball cards, just because any random individual expected to profit when they bought one

that this framework is not applied everywhere, specifically how congress exempted spot commodities and commodities derivatives from the SEC framework specifically because it was untenable

That there is a difference between a digital commodity and a digital security that is mutually exclusive, but the SEC has provided no way of understanding that distinction, and now has resorted to just arbitrarily claiming random assets are securities in cases against the people that trade those assets, instead of taking up cases against the issuers of those assets and letting those issuers defend themselves or reach a definitive conclusion

That it is impossible to comply if it was applied everywhere, as registered security status inherits tons of unrelated regulations to protect incumbent intermediaries

That the SEC will never achieve congress’ delegated mission of investor protection and only hurt investors

And that actually inconveniencing everyone will put this framework under a constitutional test that the SEC probably needs to avoid, but I’m all the SEC going after the entire sneaker trading ecosystem as unregistered broker dealers as fallout to their crusade just to prove they aren’t just trying to debilitate crypto

(The staking program has a separate evaluation)

Why would a sneaker fall under the terms they're using to define a security if not every digital token does?

> Why would a sneaker fall under the terms they're using to define a security

because the sneaker trade market focuses on sneakers that are released with artificial scarcity, where many participants in that market buy with an investment of money, with a reliance on the issuer and others to keep them scarce and valuable and promote them, with an expectation of profit.

the SEC is basically saying if any random person has an expectation of profit guiding their purchase at any time, the entire asset and all transactions is a security and everyone that is trading it needs to be a registered broker dealer or registered promoter, and then even if they could be registered they would not be allowed to trade unregistered securities, or even registered esoteric securities like shoes and digital commodity units because the Self Regulatory Organizations are too permissioned for shares and bonds exclusively.

> if not every digital token does?

that's the point. there is either a way where a digital asset is exclusively a commodity, or there isn't at all and every corporate controlled unnatural commodity inherits the same regulatory framework that the SEC is trying to impose on digital assets and the entire trading ecosystem.

They wouldn't. 'yieldcrv is not demonstrating knowledge of the Howey test, and appears to be heavily focused on a narrower reading, "buying something with the expectation of increased future value" -- which they're setting up as a strawman's Howey's test.

Sneakers would not meet the Howey Test: An investment contract exists if there is an "investment of money in a common enterprise with a reasonable expectation of profits to be derived from the efforts of others."

The four parts of the Howey test, distilled down to plain English (and therefore losing a great deal of nuance in the process):

- It is an investment of money.

- The investment is in a common enterprise.

- There is an expectation of profits.

- The expectation of profits is solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party.

Buying the latest Yeezy's is not a common enterprise. The fourth point is debatable.

that’s an interesting use of strawman to invalidate the observation

The howey test doesn’t need all prongs satisfied and avoidance is based on probability only

The SEC and securities industry has enjoyed a symbiosis for 70 years, where things that blurred the lines didnt exist, were never imagined, or were never challenged. Challenging one challenges them all.

> Buying the latest Yeezy's is not a common enterprise.

And yet buying a token is? What's the distinction here?

Nike shoes and baseball cards are clearly commodities.

If you were to stake your Air Jordan's with coinbase and Coinbase told you in a years time you'd have 2 pairs, it would become a security.

like I wrote, the staking program has a different evaluation and my post was not about that. we agree that any asset can be transferred in a way that is a securities transaction.

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