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caconym_

> massive

> sweaty

> strapped

> instead of [...] their family/friends

> generated avatars

> kids [...] grab my headset, strap it on [...] or just go join them?

> cutting myself off from the outside world

> half-assed substitute for consuming the same content

> Show me the actual future

It seems like you're trying very hard to convince yourself this will be a bad product that is unpleasant to use and carries unavoidable antisocial externalities. It could very well be all of that and more, but I don't really understand why you would bother with this level of self-assured negativity before there are even any unbiased hands-on impressions out there. Apple is historically very good at execution.

> Would I rather work on this all day instead of a laptop?

You know, I very well might!

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I don't think all those points seem like "trying very hard", they totally seem to me like the base case, and it's up to the product to rise to the occasion and show how this is all wrong.

/ˈpredʒədɪs/

Not that it's morally wrong in this case, I just don't see the upside of deciding what it's like now rather than waiting for data.

We have data: all the marketing materials they released are data. It is perfectly reasonable to look at what they have put out as "these are the use cases we're explicitly highlighting" and find them wanting. Especially because it's not a new class of product. Many of the people bringing criticisms have used past products in this space, and these are their criticisms of those products. This is not some hypothetical thing, VR headsets already exist. This looks like a very solid, probably class leading, iteration on the product, but it's still just an iteration.

This is not a VR headset. AR means you can seamlessly interact with your local environment without taking off the headset.

I think that was a lot of words to say some people just enjoy confirmation bias :)

I don't think so? It's just reasonable to say "this doesn't look like it solves any of the already known issues with other products in this space". And I think it's weird to respond to that with "you have no idea until you use it!". We do have an idea, because this is not a new thing.

Their points aren't really even about the product at all. They start off with (paraphrased) "I can't imagine using this myself" and then launch into a hilariously negative caricature of a hypothetical experience using it. It's heavy on the negatively-associated words and light on actual critical analysis beyond the hype. Like, of course you can't imagine using it! You seem to be really really really convinced it sucks hard. Who would imagine themselves voluntarily having an experience like that?

I mean, it doesn't matter. The product will come out either way and I have no stake in it. But this is the internet and we post things.

> a hilariously negative caricature of a hypothetical experience using it.

That's what Apple has shown, no?

It appears like that is not the case for many people. You aren't the target market.

If you have spent much time with other VR headsets you can absolutely imagine yourself using this, and while this version is excessively negative, I came to essentially the same conclusion. There is a big hole where the experience should be.

It’s like they tried to be the next Nike and build a better sneaker except no one actually has a need for face-shoes to begin with.

Apple is a company is among others in having a history of attempting to create a market.

MP3 players were bad, but everyone listened to music. Smartphones were a convergence that everyone was working on and wanted, and everyone needed a phone, but the experience was lacking. The dominant cool-kid response was not “why?” but “finally” when the iPod and then iPhone dropped.

They still have a year — perhaps there is more coming — but this does not have the feel of “finally” for VR/AR that still seems possible, and no one needs VR, yet.

The original iPod didn't officially run on PCs, at the time easily the dominant platform and only became fully compatible with the third generation model. iPhone didn't ship with an app store and while it nailed a bunch of UI paradigms, it was limited compared to much of the competition for the first year or so.

I think it'll take longer than that for Vision to bake, it seems rough, it's just that the idea that Apple products are released fully formed has never been particularly true.

Fair points — I guess my main point is at their core they served known, simple functions and people knew what they did. There had been music players and phones in mainstream use for decades.

The correlate here I suppose is “watching things” or “using computers” but the function together with the price point so far feels to me more like PARC than Apple.

Sure, "don't knock it till you try it". But that just makes more sense for an entirely new product category. But this isn't a new product category. We all know the many drawbacks of these headsets. So, from the marketing materials released for this new entrant in that category, does it look like it has overcome all those issues? It doesn't, to me.

How much do you know about VR? I can assure you, as someone who uses a VR headset every day, most of these generalizations are false.

I don't even like wearing over-ear headphones because they make me feel too hot. Assuming the worst for a large headset is not a stretch at all.

I don't think they're either true or false, I think they're subjective. Some people will like this product, others won't.

Our experience is completely different then I guess?

Size changes but sweaty? Yes, you can even grab scuba glasses and humidity and heat will build up normally even if you stand in a living room. Strapped? Obviously. Makes you absent from the place you are at? AR can fix that I hope, but the feeling of being "somewhere else" is absolutely, completely there. A person can't just interact with you while you are using VR, you are in a different space in terms of interaction.

I've used VR dozens of times and all of these look like completely legitimate concerns.

I don’t know if you’ve used any existing VR glasses, but that’s a pretty accurate characterisation.

Modulo the whole isolation paranoia thing, sure. I preordered an original Vive way back in 2016 or whatever so I think it's fair to say I know how hot, sweaty, and unpleasant some VR headsets can get.

However (again, modulo the isolation paranoia thing which I think is just completely silly) I am not a person who thinks it's impossible to make a VR/AR headset that doesn't suck to use. What can Apple do for several times the price of any extant consumer headset? I'm interested to find out!

It may be paranoia, but it matches my experience with the PS5 vr. Amazing experience and I love playing it. You have absolutely no connection to folks in the room with you.

I'm talking about this sudden insistence that using screens by yourself, possibly in private, implies that you're some kind of antisocial shut-in.

In fact: I can spend 8 hours playing Elite in VR one day, go out with my friends the next, binge-watch LOTR with my wife the day after that, and then spend a day cranking out a 3000 word manuscript in total distraction-free isolation. These things can all exist in one person, and already do!

I think I agree. That you can use it for social isolation from those in the room with you is fine, in itself. But this is akin to promoting headphones because they increase your social/situational awareness. Which is laughably false.

Such that the complaint here isn't the "by yourself, possibly in private" implications. It is the "in your home, surrounded by family" implication. You may be surrounded by them, but you are definitely isolated from them.

I do think (to whatever extent Apple is pushing it) the marketing angle that this headset will enhance in-person social interactions is pretty silly. But I also see it as inevitable PR fluff and distinct from the real compelling use cases this headset could offer.

Fair.

I think in some reactions, there's an element of "I can't justify this cost, so I want to convince myself I don't want it." I can't justify this early version, but at $1k I'd be quite happy to strap on the headset and cut myself off from the outside world in the evenings, or for some of my work.

I can absolutely see a future where many adults spend idle evenings with a headset instead of a TV or iPad.

Lonely adults.

A growing demographic

Getting a bit triggered by all this "lonely adult" type language, some of us (maybe more than a few) are alone for "reasons", we might even have more cash because of that. There is no stigma/shame attached to living alone, at least I didn't really think there was. To catch this attitude, on hackernews of all places, is a bit inelegant imho.

I will grant you the cognitive dissonance though of Apple of all companies making the ultimate bachelor toy.

Do you really need to hug your kids or throw things at the dog whilst in the middle of a code flow or devops nightmare (or whatever focused work is your poison) ? Until some chick turns up and suddenly falls in love with me, maybe I can use that cash on this thing lol.

This does seem to be targeted at people being remote/isolated/alone; they probably could have saved some time and not bothered with those eyes and the virtual avatar stuff.

I'm married with a kid on the way and have a pretty good social life, seeing friends and family multiple times a week. When we aren't out, my wife and I regularly watch TV and movies together.

Based on the above, do you think I ever use screens by myself? As a programmer and a writer, would you claim that I have no use for a quiet, private workspace without distractions?

(It's crazy how many people are coming out of the woodwork to insist on this false dichotomy between being socially well-adjusted and having a use for a screen that can't be shared.)

Shoot, I would. I've been dreaming of a headset to replace my monitors for years now.

This, and we can say the same of the current present where, we, people behaves like zombies watching our own mobile phones without looking at the faces around. Not saying that this is a good future but the technology is sound and Apple execution excels and is well integrated within their ecosystem.

Apple isn't devoid of any past mistakes though...

Removing ports that re useful, making a computer that looks like a trashcan etc.

Just because it's apple trying to fit a use case doesn't mean it will succeed, and I too am skeptical about it to say the least.

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