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Comment by danpalmer | Hacker News Reader

I'm surprised that more isn't done to sell these. I'm a tech enthusiast with disposable income, but the last headset I tried was an old Oculus one about a decade ago. I could see the promise of the tech but need convincing that it's come far enough for me to buy one.

And yet... trying these out just doesn't seem to be a thing anywhere. I can walk into any tech store and see a non-working unit in a glass case, or if I'm lucky pick up a slightly sticky broken controller, but I can't try one out for 5 minutes to see if I like it.

I'd bet that Apple's headset will be announced with a store experience to go along with it. I'm sure it'll be by appointment only to begin with as they'll have many more people wanting to try it than who will want to buy, but I'm sure there will be a way to experience them before buying. The Apple Watch was effectively a new product category where people needed a new level of persuasion, and Apple had fitting appointments that were very well done, and Apple Stores have always been known for being primarily focused on using the products, even letting you try AirPods, so I can't imagine these will be stuck in a glass case.

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Well, they've sold 20 million Quest headsets [1]. This compares with ~38 million PS5s, and ~18.5 million Xbox Series X/S.

That's multiple generations of headsets, but given they iterate quicker than consoles, that still seems a somewhat fair comparison.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_cons...

That number seems astonishingly high. I’d be curious to see info on the demographics who buy these headsets (compared to PS5 for example).

People with kids, I'd guess. I bought a Quest 2 a couple years ago as a toy, as much for myself as for the kids, but they've dominated usage of it. Which is fine, because I didn't find anything that was a huge draw for me. But they fight over the damn thing every day, and use it almost as much as they use the Xbox.

It's strange because somehow, all the kids I know don't even know what the Quest is, but can rattle off all the upcoming titles for PS5 and XBox and Switch.

That’s because meta’s marketing campaigns are both terrible and targeted towards adults. Children are the largest demographic who just get it. They don’t need to be coaxed into trying the Quest 2 and its isolating form factor doesn’t intimidate children as it does most adults. They’re also the most consistently active user group. It reminds me of who the NES was most popular with

Man, that's interesting.. maybe Graybeard Palmer Luckey will finally get the recognition he deserves once those kids are all powerful adults ~30 years from now

+1 this entire thread. Bought it for the kid and I to share, kid basically owns it. Games catalog isn't even as good as the Atari 2600.

I could see that. I don't think any of the neighbor kids knew anything about VR until they came over to visit and got to see our Quest. But they get hooked, and it's becoming a regular thing for them to ask to come over and play on the VR while our kids play on the Xbox instead. I guess it's a failure of marketing.

A strange thing has happened, the Quest has become uncool among kids (my kids circles at least).

Don't think the FB association is helping. Most things FB are uncool among kids these days, even Instagram.

Strange as they probably barely know or care that FB is behind these products. I think they just gotta make it cooler. The Quest 2 is a bit like having a Wii strapped to your head. Not saying that it is easy to make it awesome but I do think awesome is what is needed.

Are they allowed to play on it for as long as they like or did you set a time limit?

Why must people continue to use the term "headsets"? You sound like you're 80 years old

What else would you call it? The official announcement of it calls it a headset.

Sorry. What do you call them?

I believe the young kids are calling them Virtual Visions Visors.

Not sure if joking.

I thought he was talking about phones my bad

What else? Goggles perhaps? That sounds more grandpa to me than headset.

These aren't HMDs, if that's what you're thinking. They're fully integrated systems.

"vr-goggles" doesn't sound that great either. on the other hand, alphabet could have "google goggles"

I've taken to calling them "VR Helmets" after reading a page on rutracker passed through google translate. Sounds just stupid and wrong enough to entertain me.

It's more impressive than many people think, but in context:

- The PS5 sales have been notoriously hampered by supply constraints

- The XBox numbers are considered to be a major disappointment [1]

- The Quest continues to be crushed by the Nintendo Switch, which counted selling 18m unites in a year to be a disappointing result of supply constraints [2]

[1] https://kotaku.com/xbox-series-x-s-sales-microsoft-next-gen-...

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/09/nintendo-full-year-earnings-...

Everyone who wants a PS5 can buy one now though. The constraints are long over.

Used PS5s are also common now.

That’s a pretty recent development as of this year

The year is halfway over, not exactly recent

~4 months out of the total 31 its been out? that sounds recent to me

Meanwhile the PS4 shipped over 110m units.

PS2 laughs at 158 million

Switch is at 125 and isn’t slowing.

And the Quest is still at 20m.

quest just doesn't have a game library offering that compares to the switch. plus the switch is way less of an investment to get into a gaming session. (and I say this as a quest owner) to play my vr headset, I have to clear the room, calibrate my play space and the games just arent there. there's nothing in it that matches super mario galaxy or legend of zelda. I usually jsut play a few rounds of beat saber and call it a day

This sounds exactly like my experience. And speaking as a person who owned the Quest and now Quest 2, both of which barely ever saw/seen the day of light as most times I never had them charged up when I decided to clear a place to play.

My Q2 (mostly the kids) doesn't appear to sleep when turned off. If I leave it unplugged for a couple days, I'll get a message on my phone that the battery is getting low. That is crazy to me. It should be able to be "off" indefinitely unless it is a Facebook APT.

That is a well known issue, same with it not remembering the play area so you have to recalibrate every single time. The Quest software is just an absolute buggy mess

That's a fair point, but I still feel like the sales pitch is lackluster. I only know 1 person with one of these (or who talks about it), despite being surrounded by high earning tech workers.

On the other hand when I think back to the Apple Watch launch, despite early models not selling that well compared to other Apple devices I remember plenty of friends having them.

My guess as to why there aren’t more in-store demo units is because of the need for space and staff onsite for a smooth demo. Unlike Apple, meta only has one storefront. The issue of cleanliness also calls for the need for onsite staff

The best they could do is subsidize the cost which they have done multiple times in the past. The lowest price for a Quest 2 that I’ve seen is $229

> The issue of cleanliness also calls for the need for onsite staff

I'm not sure why this is being downvoted.

As anyone who actually tried to demo a quest 2/pro knows, this was absolutely true, and still is true [1].

During covid, there were no in-store demos that I could find for the Pro or Quest 2, in my city of millions. One large chain advertised demos, but it was by appointment, and not one within 100 miles actually went through with it.

Now, with COVID restrictions gone, the locations are far between, and require assisted demos, because you can't really leave a VR headset tethered to a counter and not have something break.

The only reliable way to try was to buy it and return it. See all of the subreddits for how widespread this behavior was.

I think the real issue is that HL: Alyx is an extreme outlier in quality, in VR gaming, which isn't good.

There aren’t just that many exciting games for the platform. There are a hand full of impressive titles, but they tend to be short and eventually get boring.

There are just so much more constraints to get an immersive experience right.

Which is why I tend to use my Quest 2, and now Quest Pro using Oculus Link for Sim Racing - it's a game changer, and very sticky.

For untethered, I tend to stick to fitness apps, which is a surprisingly fun way of staying in shape, and beats the boredom of the gym.

What are your favorite fitness apps?

Not parent, but I mostly stick to FitXR and BeatSaber. I wanted to give supernatural a try, but the whole give up a credit card in the app when the headset already has one is too shady. I haven’t tried as many as I wanted to (like the bullet one) since I’m pretty happy with my routine.

Yep - beat saber is a surprisingly good cardio workout, especially some of the tracks where you're having to squat lots.

I use it for warm up and cool down. I get my main cardio from FitXR, but if I’m just not feeling it beatsaber is easy to get into for some sweat at least.

Totally agree about FitXR and beat saber.

I tried Supernatural for a few months. It’s good if you want an instructor led workout and it looks great, but I could not justify the monthly sub

Other great workout apps are synth riders, punch fit, ninja legends, creed, until you fall, pistol whip, gorilla tag, and there’s more.

You’d be surprised to see what makes you sweat

how much does sim racing cost to get into with the quest pro?

I was able to get a Quest Pro on eBay for $800. Honestly, a Quest 2 is more than good enough to start. You’ll probably be able to pick up one used for less than $200 with the quest 3 announcement

If you want more immersion though, you probably want a wheel set for about $300 and a VR ready PC which ranges from $1200 - $2000 depending on sales and assuming you’re going for midrange. It is game changing though.

what community is good? reddit?

Yeah, it has multiple sub reddits

You'll want a somewhat decent GPU (doesn't need to be a 4090 by any stretch, iRacing is pretty good at running on most things).

When it comes to wheel and pedals you can go cheap and all in one, like the Logitech ones, or push the boat out a bit more like I did with Fanatec gear. Then there's crazy expensive stuff like Heusinkveld.

The problem for Quest is not units sold, but retention.

The industry metric that’s most applicable is tie ratio (or attachment rate, which is related but specific to individual software titles).

Games sell game controllers, not the other way around.

When a sufficiently good experience is available for VR, which isn't usable without VR, then VR headsets will sell.

I've tried all the VR apps and games, and they all underwhelm.

I largely agree with you, however Superhot is the closest thing I've experienced to the "can't do it outside VR" games. I did previously play the browser version of the same game, and it was fantastic still, but there's something different about moving around in space like that.

HL:Alyx got close to the "only in VR" sort of mechanics, but change 2-3 big set pieces, and it could very much be done on a 2D screen.

Well, it doesn't only have to be "only in VR" mechanics, it also has to be a really really fun game compared to almost all the other games you could at the moment purchase and play on your normal PC with a normal monitor and no extra $1000 investment in hardware..

I've tested VR sporadically ever since the first Oculus Rift came out, and I just get a headache after 15 minutes and that kind of has ruined it for me forever I guess as I now associate VR with motion sickness, bad ergonomics etc. That's very personal of course, I know there are others who can run around in VR fine for a whole day without these reactions.

Anyway... the game has to be outrageously good for me at least to use a VR version instead of just sitting on my chair staring on the screen with a cup of tea next to me.

Weird to say the barrier to entry is “an extra $1000” when the headline is exactly half that, which is similar to the cost of a console or decent GPU.

Edit: and the Quest 2 will be reduced to $300 in a couple days from now

It was $300 before Facebook raised its price. Completely worth it.

I will buy the Quest 3 as soon as it is released, but just for my stack of fitness games that are in my daily routine.

You can get back into it. I get motion sick too with some stupid games (like X-Plane that has this really annoying opposite movement when it's loading, GRR). But just do it slowly and don't keep going the moment you get even a hint of sickness. Soon you'll be running aroudn with no issue.

> I just get a headache after 15 minutes

That usually means your IPD isn’t setup properly on your headset. It’s more common on HTC headsets or any others that have really fresnel lenses

I tried Alyx and it was just not fun. Not for the game or anything, but I was really just uncomfortable being in a virtual reality environment where I was hunting/being-hunted by aliens. That's really not my idea of a good time - more like a nightmare.

VR needs some less intense and some more fun, low-stress gaming experiences to draw in the casuals like me.

> VR needs some less intense and some more fun, low-stress gaming experiences to draw in the casuals like me.

You’re in luck because those types of titles form the majority of VR titles today. The more common complaint is the lack of AAA content like Alyx which is due to the lack of users

I think it's amazing. I played through about 5 times now. And a lot of the user-generated content too.

But I feel like there's a lot more for people like you. Moss, Beat Saber, Red Matter etc.

IMO this is true for all “games”, not just VR.

The industry is surprisingly conservative in terms of content/genre outside of indie studios. It’s basically Hollywood.

Bizarre that the industry keeps pumping out the same kind of games that alienate casuals like me as well as women. That’s a massive untapped market.

The only game my wife ever played was The Sims and was completely baffled when she learned there were no other games similar to it.

And yet they’ll spend $200M making yet another military FPS

It's not like other games in the broader genre don't exist. eg Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing, My Time at Portia all come to mind.

Yes they exist, with laughably meager budgets compared to “mainstream” games.

I’ll concede animal crossing is a good exception to the rule, but this only serves to prove our original point that there’s room for AAA-grade games in this market segment.

Stardew Valley is the perfect example. It took an indie game developer to make a game with broad appeal.

What are these big studios even doing? Why didn't their customer research tell them that there's demand for games like Stardew Valley?

You need to play Demeo.

They have a Non-VR version now so people without headsets can get in on the fun, but it's just not the same.

What makes Demeo great? I'm considering getting it.

If you have ever played D&D with miniatures, it's like that, only the miniatures are glowy and sparkling and animated, and the board is very detailed. You pick the pieces up with your VR controllers and move them around.

Except you can zoom in to stick your face super close-up to the action to see it going down.

When you zoom out, you are, indeed, in someone's basement. When it's not your turn you can enjoy all the geeky easter eggs sitting around the basement.

It sounds cool like this, but I can assure you it's cooler than that. I first played it non-VR and enjoyed the game, and then played a game the second time in VR and literally said aloud, "Holy Shit!".

I see your point but I think both need to happen. My guess is that the best VR games will only show their real appeal when played, because people don't have a great frame of reference otherwise.

I can look at a PS5 game and decide to buy a PS5, because I know what controller based consoles are like, I know the types of games, I know what I like. I can't do any of that with a VR game because I don't know what sort of headset I like, how it feels, what's important in a VR game that isn't in others and vice-versa.

For me Beat Saber is that game. With mods and community-made songs/beatmaps which can be quite intense and it's how I get in some cardio on a regular schedule (~1h30m on a two-days-on-one-day-off cycle).

Currently I do this with a Quest 2 attached to a Vive Deluxe Audio headstrap with 3D printed adapters and a counterweight on the back to take pressure off my face (a setup dubbed "frankenquest"). It works well enough but there's a lot of room for improvement.

I think the experience just isn't mainstream enough. I think there are a lot of people that would drop $200-$300 to get a beat sabre experience if they were aware of the option. Is there any reason it should be less compelling than the "Wii as exercise" craze, for example?

The Wii was heavily marketed as a family entertainment system. A 'Family Computer', if you will. It's even in the name. People were buying it because it's something your grandmother could play alongside your five year old son. VR is still marketed as ages 13 and up, gives some people nausea and can only be used by one person at a time. There's also extra hygiene concerns that make them awkward to use at parties as you have the extra step of wiping the headset down between users. The controllers are also pretty intimidating for new users because you can't see them. I was showing PSVR2 to my dad and told him "Push R2 to select" before realising that if you didn't know where the R2 button was already, you had no hope of finding it because you're physically incapable of seeing the controller.

It's a long way from the ultra-casual Wii experience.

> you have the extra step of wiping the headset down between users

You wipe it down? Is that normal?

For germaphobes. If you have people at a party, the higher likelihood one will be.

I'm old; I ate dirt, swam in lakes and drank from a garden hose! My immune system is superman.

Huh. Wild. I'm unaware that I have ever even associated with anyone even close to that level of germaphobe.

People that are that level of germaphobe tend to avoid people that are obviously the opposite way. It’s easier than explaining and getting them to do it your way (because there’s no meeting in the middle in these scenarios, it’s either clean enough, or it’s not)

Fun fact about wiping the headset down —- there’s a study at Yale to determine whether the Oculus mask can be sufficiently sanitized for safe use in pediatric cancer wings (a high bar) because of it’s form factor and immersive experience. Turns out it absolutely cannot. Sanitizing that mask is practically impossible.

Yeah I highly doubt you could sanitize to medical needs levels but the casual user should be fine.

Is this with or without a silicon cover on the foam face guard? Silicon has worked really well for me from a cleanliness perspective.

VR just seems too intense. I legitimately don't want to immerse myself in a new world. I'm perfectly fine sitting in front of the TV for an hour and mashing buttons from a distance and walking away after I'm done.

In case you didn't know, the PSVR2 has a button on the front right side that switches the display to that of a camera coming out the front face of the unit so you can see around. It's a huge improvement over the previous generation. However, the resolution isn't great. While you certainly can see the controller, you wouldn't be able to read the "R2" imprint on it.

> For me Beat Saber is that game.

Yeah, Star Wars Squadrons was what sold me a VR headset. No regrets.

I didn't hear good things about that game... is it that good in VR?

I think some people set their expectations like it's a $60 + battlepasses live service game instead of a $40 game that got a complete release and had no plans for future content.

If you're looking for a long-lived multiplayer game, probably not. If you're just excited to sit in an X-Wing cockpit and blow up some TIE fighters then it's really great in VR.

If you ever wanted to feel like you're flying in an X-Wing, it's pretty incredible. I play for a couple hours at a time with a basic joystick, a Lenovo Explorer headset, and an Nvidia 1070. I'd like a bit stronger of a graphics card but it's still very clear and sharp. All the control screens in the cockpit are quite large and easy to understand, not a lot of tiny numbers to squint at.

I think the issue is that Beat Saber has been the answer for the last four years and if you are not into rhythm games then... It's kind of a hard sell.

One issue is that Beat Saber is a waste of money if you don't get the custom songs/mods/etc. This is easy if you're playing on a PC, it's a one-click thing which has wink-wink tacit endorsement from the devs. It can be done on Oculus devices too, but it involves a convoluted jailbreak that regular users won't bother with, and without that Beat Saber runs out of appeal pretty quick.

I think the included songs are the best and I have bought many packs.

Yeah I agree. The first-party maps have been getting better since Beat Games started hiring from the community mapmaker talent pool, but prior to that the stock maps felt kinda clunky and lacked flow.

Also while the variety in stock maps is better than its ever been, it still doesn’t hold a candle to the thousands of community maps.

I only played stock for a long time

You're exaggerating.

> which has wink-wink tacit endorsement from the devs.

Is that true? A kinda competitor to Beat Saber is Synth Riders, and it's not wink-wink, there is official support for custom songs (and mods I think? I'm not sure). And when I get back to Beat Saber (because I like both Beat Saber and Synth Riders' game play), I feel like I'm owning an iPhone: a beautiful object but I can't actually do what I want with it

Tried Beat Saber once in a VR lab type thing, it's really hit and miss.

With some practice, you get fewer misses. :-D

Feels more like Half Life Alyx would be the killer app for VR instead, but I'm not sure what the replayability is. Maybe with a VR gmod based on it or something?

I played Alyx some and it was neat, but I didn't get terribly far into it as it wasn't very compelling for me. Maybe because I've never played the other Half Life games?

Absolutely. To truly appreciate Alyx, you need to know a few things about the Half-Life universe.

HL:A showed what a AAA FPS is in VR.

I wouldn't call it a killer app simply because these days, FPS is all about multiplayer, and a FPS multiplayer in VR is just...meh? It doesn't really work.

Really, any sort of action-packed combat is just not going to work in VR. Jumping behind cover works fine outside VR because the medium acknowledges the limitation. But in VR, trying to jump behind cover doesn't work when you have to worry about being next to the edge of your play space. VR tries to immerse you, but that immersion is limited when you can't touch your surroundings. Being crouched behind cover and peeking over it to shoot feels unnatural and immersion-breaking when you can't lean against the wall you're hiding behind.

Even as a VR supporter and owner of a Valve Index (And the HTC Vive before that), I don't know what the killer app for VR would be. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd even EXPECT there to be a true single "killer app" for VR, but rather, a collection of apps that work incredibly well in VR, or don't work without VR. Beat Saber comes up a lot, and it's fun, but I wouldn't call it the "killer app". It's just an example of something that only works in VR.

Super Hot manages to pull off immersive combat in VR like to other game, it’s absolutely fantastic - but it only works for this particular type of game mechanic.

SUPER

HOT

SUPER

HOT

SUPER

HOT

Yeah, SUPER HOT VR was amazing. It really makes you feel like you're in a kick-ass slow-mo action scene.

Beat Saber is the most successful successor to DDR. DDR worked without VR obviously, but requires an expensive and easy to break input device. Also, downstairs neighbors are less likely to complain when you are playing BeatSaber vs DDR.

From having friends try different things in VR, Beat Saber has been far and away the biggest hit with the most people relative to any other type of game or experience.

Out of ~20 people, I think there has only been one who liked something else better (the X-wing mission in SW:Battlefront).

> For me Beat Saber is that game. With mods and community-made songs/beatmaps which can be quite intense

Some people seemed hesitant to trust Meta due to it's Facebook account requirement (now removed), but for me their behaviour with Beat Saber is one reason that I'm kinda hesitant to trust them going forward.

e.g. Beat Saber has an update appear and all your mods stop functioning for a bit until verified to work with the new release. (From what I recall on the Quest version trying to mod results in some warning messages that stuff like this might result in your account getting banned, though I've never heard of them actually doing this to Beat Saber players). i.e. it's annoying and cumbersome to do, needs to be repeated for each update, and you're threatened with having your account banned (though I suspect that they'll continue to not follow through with those threats).

They'd also previously promised they were gonna add custom level support on Quest (e.g. https://twitter.com/BeatSaber/status/1182645623683727360) but despite tweaking stuff like this multiple times in 2019 that support never materialized.

Net result is that I'm mostly a Synth Riders player and tend to advise people purchasing a headset to avoid Beat Saber when looking for rhythm games.

(Synth Riders, Audio Trip, Boombox all allow custom songs out of the box and Pistol Whip finally has that scheduled for release this month - https://twitter.com/PistolWhipVR/status/1664037754550771717)

This is why even though I'm using a Quest 2, I don't bother with the Quest-native Beat Saber and instead play the Windows/Steam version through PC link. Well that, and the Quest version will chug on some maps that are a bit too much for the Quest 2's midrange smartphone SoC to handle, while my PC tower doesn't even break a sweat.

On Windows there's several utilities to keep your Beat Saber version and mods frozen. The utility I use, BSManager[0], also symlinks your beatmaps folder so it's shared between versions, making it easy to switch between arbitrary versions at will.

With that setup I play one version for extended periods and only upgrade when custom maps start using frills from newer versions. I'm currently playing on 1.27.0 even though the current version of Beat Saber is up to 1.30.0.

[0]: https://github.com/Zagrios/bs-manager

bsmanager is a perfect name for the stuff it helps me put up with...

I'd agree, but Beat Saber with mods and community songs bumps the whole package to around 2000 bucks worth of material for someone who doesn't own a windows PC.

That's bummer, and it was worse when GPU were costing an arm and a leg, so I'd totally understand people being hesitant to jump in.

aka, there is no killer app in VR.

Some games give me that experience:

1. Thrill of the Fight. Boxing standing up throwing fists and blocking with precision just doesn’t exist with controllers.

2. Blaston believe it or not. I really enjoyed hiding behind barriers dodging shots and leaping out to grab power ups.

3. The table tennis game. Swinging my arm like a real paddle was so realistic and the shots are just not reproducible with such precision.

4. Golf with the cut down iron shaft. Again, the fidelity of the shots just isn’t possible otherwise. You can get the same thing at some sports bars but it costs way more :)

Try "In Death: Unchained". You'll be blown away. By far the best game on the Quest IMHO. It's exactly the kind of game I wish for as a kid.

I second this. I never tire of this game.

Thrill of the Fight is such an amazing game.

It's fun but it's also an intense workout, especially if you crank up the difficulty level. I've purchased fitness games for the Quest, and while I enjoy them, they don't give the same intensity of workout that Thrill of the Fight does.

I hope they'll make a v2 of this excellent game.

Thrill of the Fight is brutal. Never thought I would sweat so much in a VR headset. It's a great game and an intense workout.

They are making a v2! You can follow progress and add suggestions on their subreddit. I’m hoping that the apple headset is a target device for them as I think it would be an excellent pairing.

There is a killer app for VR which isn't usable without VR, it's just NSFW.

To be honest the way this is being eschewed is stupid. It's holding back the tech. Oculus bans it from its store, Sidequest had it for a while but caved in due to stupid pressure from payment providers and their deal with oculus.

Yet it's a perfectly valid usecase and one where VR adds value. Despite current tech not making perfect use of what VR offers (no 6DOF for example). There are also motion-synced peripherals available to add an extra factor to it. It's a booming industry.

Meta are shooting themselves in the foot by ignoring it. There's a big urban myth that VHS won over betamax because Betamax limited the types of movies available for its system. While I believe the story is BS, it was a component of betamax's failure and there is undeniably a huge market for it.

I’m still waiting for a good immersive VR game that I can just play while sitting on a couch… all those games that require me to move my entire body all the time get exhausting really fast.

Try Trover Saves The Universe from Rick & Morty's authors

More games have sit down modes now. Walking Dead Saints and Sinners, as well as I Expect you to Die (fun puzzler) are two examples off the top of my head.

I think vehicle sims are the best case for these things. They really do play better in vr.

Yet even so, of course you can still use a monitor, and of course that's good enough.

It's hard to imagine what a vr exclusive that couldn't be enjoyable on a monitor or TV might actually look like.

What have you tried?

Into the Radius is that game I think.. It is like Stalker Shadows of Chernobyl in VR .. I just think lots of people don't know about it. But its the game

Beat Saber, Echo VR and Walkabout Minigolf are standouts

I agree but I understand why it's not happening. It takes money and experts to set up and maintain headsets in dedicated test areas, resetting them, maintaining hygiene since these touch your hair so hair products seep into the strap and people's faces sweat into the goggle frames, etc.

Apple will be able to do that easily in its own stores. But it's a lot harder for Meta to get Best Buy and other retailers to do it -- not only will they have to pay them a lot of money, but they just won't be able to ensure the quality.

Absolutely, this is definitely hard, especially for Meta as they don't have an existing network of stores. But it still seems like a big miss that they've seemingly not even tried to make this a thing.

Maybe they should have partnered retailers, maybe they should have pop-up demo spaces, maybe they should be giving these things away to places like libraries or other public venues. They could also define what a good sales experience looks like, provide disposable or reusable pieces for contact, and so on. There is all sorts they could be doing!

Before the pandemic, Microsoft had retail stores were you could demo the Oculus Rift.

However with physical retail generally on the decline, who would be the partner now? Best Buy isn't doing that great.

What is funny is that Meta did go through all the expense of setting this up with Best Buy for the Meta Quest Pro, and nobody even realized it was an option because they advertised it so poorly[1].

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/10/meta-quest-pro-hands-...

Ha, thanks -- that article is a perfect example of how bad the experience was at Best Buy, basically exactly what you would expect:

> I had to search the aisles until I found a lonely Quest display in an unloved back corner of the store...

> There was no special room or specific area set aside for the Quest demo at the store. Instead, the demo staffer awkwardly guided me to a small section of bare carpet...

> To make matters worse, about 15 minutes into my demo... interrupted by an abrupt "powering down" message when the headset ran out of charge. The demo staffer apologized, saying the unit "was at zero percent when I got it" and hadn't been plugged in for very long before our demo.

> The staffer running my demo told me that the Quest Pro is "more for business"... Unfortunately, without a linked computer or any linked 2D apps in the headset, I was only able to try out the (very unresponsive) stock web browser. And without a Bluetooth mouse or keyboard, scrolling and typing was not a natural experience.

I wonder if the apple vr headset is just a way to get people to visit their stores and buy something else

the stores are always so crowded i'd much rather try out the headset somewhere else.

Hygiene is a problem. These things are not really comfortable, so put one on and you will inevitably start sweating into the facial interface. Safety is another issue; casually putting a headset on a member of the public led to a lot of injuries when it was tried in the past.

They come with a silcone "condom" for the facial cushion now which is easily washed :) Unlike real condoms these are reusable.

It wasn't the most glorious solution for their allergy problem IMO. But it does have auxiliary benefits.

Apple lets you try airpods in their shop

Anytime I look, the game library is sub par. I am a pretty regular console gamer and own different platforms. I would love to have one but anytime I look at to games, the list is years old and looks like like a dead ecosystem.

Also, if you want to play games on Steam, you need a PC capable of running them so if I am dumping a few thousand into a PC as well, would rather get the higher rated Steam headset for a few hundred more than the Meta.

Lastly, I don’t trust Facebook at all. I think the recent update was the first you didn’t need an account but some people I talk to like me are sketched out of a device staring at your face and expressions and wasn’t rated too high for privacy.

Here in Barcelona there is a display area at the local FNAC in the city center where you could try them out. The display area is still there (including huge marketing wallpaper) but the attendants are gone so perhaps it didn't work out. There was always a queue while they were doing it though.

I think part of the problem was it was during the end of the pandemic and perhaps people were feeling bad about sharing a headset, though they were rubbing it down with alcohol in between.

But considering the area is still there: Perhaps they are not doing demos all day. I'm not there very often.

You can buy a unit and return it if you don't like it.

In fact, that's a good way of actually telling Meta that you are not happy with it. Not buying doesn't tell them much.

That’s what I did. It’s cool but to own it I’ll wait one or two generations. Maybe I’m picky as a PC gamer but it was kind of a blurry, ghosting, unfocused experience no matter what I did.

Did you use it with a PC with ebough power? what you’ve described sounds like you didn’t adjust the lens well enough to match your IPD. Unfortunately, you need to know your IPD or else you will get a terrible experience. The headset matters too. VR headsets from HTC are notorious for having really poor lenses that cause these issue

Yeah it was with a 3070 but it was the same in the standalone mode

It sounds like the IPD adjustment or the lens doesn’t agree with your eyes. That was actually my very first experience with the HTC Vive pro. I would get headaches and nausea within 15 min. I was only able to fix it with hardware mods which had some trade offs. Unfortunately, I am not aware of hardware fixes for any other models

The good news is that the new generation of VR headsets starting with the quest pro and Apple reality should fix your problem. The quest 3 might fix it too if it has better IPD config. The downside is that they are a lot more expensive than the entry level quest 2 with prices from two years ago

This is possible only in the US, I think. In most of the world, you cannot return a working device that you just decided you didn't like or want.

Agree. I have a Quest 2, and two friends have since purchased them after trying mine out. If potential customers could just demo the damn thing, many of them would convert into sales. There is very much a "wow factor" after trying it out, even if many users do eventually get bored.

In December 2016 I tried a demo of an HTC Vive at a Microsoft Store (remember those?), and a few days later did a demo of an Oculus Rift at a Best Buy. The demo at the Microsoft Store was well set up - they had an associate handling the demo, an area set aside to do the demo, a speaker, and a display to show observers what was being shown in the VR set. The Best Buy demo was not as put together but was still OK.

Not sure why they seemed to be demoing it more then than now.

Quest 2 has been fun for me, but only because a handful of game. My kid played beatsaber for a while. I played paintball - a mini game inside recroom. And I still play a team sport called Echo VR which is shutting down in August.

We've tried a few others but nothing else really stood out. If there is a compelling sequel to Echo I hope I don't need to upgrade hardware and will just quit.

With most technology these days you know what you are getting, you don't have to go play with the new iPhone in the store to see how good it is, you just know. But with VR it's different in that it's still pretty new (in the context of everyday consumers) so being able to try it out before you buy is crucial.

Exactly, at the beginning of a tech cycle the public need convincing that it's even a product category they need. Currently I'm not seeing much from Meta or others to sell to the masses, only to those who are already convinced they need a headset.

Yeah, like toy and electronics stores had console demo stations out so the kids could line up and try different games.

I have no idea how you’d do this at scale, but you’re not wrong. I bought a Quest 1 around when they were released after trying a friend’s headset, I’d been on the fence before that, but afterwards I was totally sold.

It used to be easier before Covid. I was able to try both the Quest and Vive in a Best Buy in 2019.

The PSVR2 is pretty decent hardware, with great controllers, but a lackluster game library at the moment. It's bulkier than the Quest 3 but it also has good haptic feedback (in the headset too) so I guess that evens it out.

I think there's significant fear that the first time experience can be a little jarring and will just scare people away. That said, given the right support from a retailer, this could be a huge boon.

> I'm sure it'll be by appointment only to begin with as they'll have many more people wanting to try it than who will want to buy

The sweat is going to be disgusting.

> Apple Stores have always been known for being primarily focused on using the products, even letting you try AirPods

No Apple Store in asia let’s you try AirPods…

For one thing it's not being released until September. Also, they did so a lot of hands on demos of Meta Quest Pro when it came out some time ago.

If they had a store where everyone could try out headsets they would probably have to invent some sort of one-time forhead cover.

Have you been in an arcade recently? These already exist

TIL!

This is an edge that Apple may have.

If it’s glasses instead of a helmet - that’s already going to remove a lot of friction to put it on and test it

The bigger value that Apple offers is a reason to use it outside of video games. At least that’s the hope.

Based on the rumored specs though, I’m not sure if it’s good enough for work since Apple Reality’s PPD is at 33 when the minimum for text is about 40. Retina is about 60.

> more isn't done to sell these.

Do they still require a FB account?

> And yet... trying these out just doesn't seem to be a thing anywhere.

If the experience of using them was actually marketable, it would be more of a thing.

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