Ask HN: Tired of being a software engineer, what next?

Stop chasing dreams instead. Life is not a Hollywood movie. Not everyone is going to get a famous billionaire. Adjust your expectations to reality, and stop thinking so highly of yourself, stop judging others.

Assume the responsibility for the things that happen in your life. It is kind of annoying to read your text, it is always some external thing that "happened" to you, and it is always other people who are not up to your standards. At some moment you even declare with despair: "(...)at this point I had just become like everyone else". And guess what? This is true and false at the same time, in a fundamental level most people are not remarkable, and you probably aren't too. But at the same time, nobody is the same, you have worth just by being, and other people have too.

I don't care about your engineering skills, while they are good enough to warrant you a job at a FAANG company, by 40, it is clear that you are not some John Carmack, a Dave Cutler, or a Linus Torvalds. So stop this bullshit about wanting to work with people who "care as much as I do", as if you are some hero descended from Olympus forced to work with those lowly mortals.

The impression I get is that you must be someone incredibly annoying to work with, and that your performance is not even nearly close to what you think it is, and that you really need to come down to earth.

Stop looking outside, work on yourself instead. You'll never be satisfied just by changing jobs. Do therapy if you wish, become acquainted with stoicism, be a volunteer in some poor country, whatever, but do something to regain control of your life, to get some perspective, and to adjust your expectations to reality.

Touche!

>The impression I get is that you must be someone incredibly annoying to work with

I don't get this impression at all, but in any case it seems an unnecessary and rude remark.

Well, if it was possible I would kinda both - upvote and downvote you here !

I think you are absolutely right about the responsibility. Although you seem to argue that he should lower his expectations, I would rather say that he can choose - he can also take the responsibility for the 'I just want a job where I can flex my engineering skills without BS' part - it's not going to just happen magically, but it's totally possible. But it does have a price that one must be willing to pay.

Hmm I guess what I said can come off as condescending. But I was trying to condense all of my experience in less than 4k words, and I guess I came out sounding a bit like an asshole based on your comment.

Trust me, I don't think that highly of myself. Even when I was getting good perf reviews, I constantly was critical of myself as not doing a good enough job. I had bad burn out for several years and it made me feel like I couldn't do my job anymore. My self confidence was very bad, and I still struggle with imposter syndrome in my current role.

Many of the things I described above, I used to blame myself for as if they were entirely my fault. It was only after working with a therapist I was able to reframe these events as being out of my control. Which helped me get out of the hole I was in. So I disagree it's bad to blame external events - I actually think that's a very healthy way to look at the bad things that happen to us.

By saying I want to work with people that care like I do, I mean people who are passionate about engineering and want to do a good job. I've found that incredibly hard to find. Morale in general just seems to be poor.

I probably just need to be realistic. It seems the kind of dream team I want to be on is very rare. I had it once in my career so far, and didn't even realize what I had at the time.

> The impression I get is that you must be someone incredibly annoying to work with

I'm actually a pushover, which is a problem. I go out of my way to make everyone I work with happy, at my own expense. Despite being an introvert, I'm the person organising social events, checking in on my team members who seem down, and trying to help everyone to get along. But I guess my inner dialogue makes me sound like an asshole, which is fair enough. I think I can be overly critical of others (and myself, first of all).

> Stop looking outside, work on yourself instead.

Yes, this is a good point and what I'm trying. I find my FAANG job very stressful, and it makes it hard for me to relax outside of work. Maybe my next challenge is just learning to disconnect from work as much as possible. Easier said then done.

I am glad to hear that. I was hard with you because I've seen too many good people enter into similar cycles and some of them never come back.

Yeah, I don't know if this at-your-face style of communication could help you, but if everyone was just parroting feel-good stuff at you, I had to try the intervention style.

That said, maybe this particular company is not good for you. I once worked in an ad-tech company and my life was miserable because I could not come to terms with what I was helping to build. Maybe you despise the product you helping build, idk. Do some soul-searching, and if that's the case, changing jobs can help a bit, as long as you don't see it as a miracle potion. Generally, the stuff you do can produce mostly marginal improvements, don't expect giant improvements on any single change you do. And above all, tread lightly. Maybe change teams first?

But man, please, just take a breath, and care less about stuff that actually doesn't matter that much in the great scheme of things.

I really don't know what will help you, but just try a lot of stuff till something works, and all the while try to see the big picture. Man, we are just another animal on this small rock in a very non-remarkable planetary system, orbiting a very average star. Life is fucking short, try to enjoy it.

Money is good, but it is only as good as the use you make of it, and you have to be careful because overly indulging in material desires gets old fast, and then you see yourself surrounded by junk that just depresses you. Try to avoid that trap.

I wrote a crappy but working LangChain script to make comments like this less spicy. This was one of the outputs it stopped on: "I see your perspective, though I view things differently. Life often doesn’t meet our hopes and expectations. Rather than judging yourself or others harshly, try understanding differing life experiences. We all face difficulties, but together can support each other.

Finding purpose and meaning brings more fulfillment than chasing dreams alone. Reflect on what matters most to you – what gives you inner peace. Make choices each day to be your best self. None are perfect, so avoid harsh self-judgement.

Life presents challenges for all. Focus on what you can influence; together we navigate them. Stop looking outside yourself for answers or blame. We share this difficult world, so take responsibility for yourself through reflection and accepting life as it is – not by changing external factors but by understanding ourselves and reality.

Adjust your expectations to what’s actually possible. While life may not meet our hopes, find meaning by better understanding yourself and what you can control.

We can’t change what’s happened or always get what we want. But we choose how we respond to difficulties and support each other through compassion."

I'd be curious what people think! https://gist.github.com/lukestanley/881d3c30c64362126352a9ce...

Damn lol that was a lot of assumptions

> where I can flex my engineering skills without BS

Not to be snarky, but it depends on how good you are and where you are (and have a track record of being). I don't know you but when most people complain about "BS" they're complaining about the fact that they have to justify their priorities, projects, and timelines or interact with other departments.

This is exactly what high paid SWE work is these days. You can have less collaboration by moving to infra, but it'll still be the norm.

Usually the only way you're allowed to go live in your coding hole is by being way better than the median engineer and having an eye for changes that produce massive amounts of value. Some examples:

1. Guy who works at a node shop who mostly ships optimizations and improvements to V8. Generates >2 mil ARR in savings every year.

2. Engineer who goes around the codebase quietly removing scaling bottlenecks for different teams.

3. Engineer who sits around solves all the hard distributed systems bugs that come in. Something wrong with the paxos implementation you rely on? he can patch it.

If you can't be this person for a company it's much harder to step away from how the company actually gets run.

> work with good, competent people who care as much as I do

There are some mid-size startups that fit this description, but at larger companies your only hope is to find this at the department level. Remember that 27,000 SWEs work at Google. It'd be weird if every single department was mostly full of good, competent people who care.

If you want this in your work you generally need to be targeting engineering organizations at the size of 50-200 people.

> This is exactly what high paid SWE work is these days. You can have less collaboration by moving to infra, but it'll still be the norm.

As someone who made the switch to infra, don't do it. The same problems mentioned before will become uncontrollable roadblocks to you getting real work done and you'll have zero power to do anything about it.

You do get to provide enormous amounts of value but typically only when the stars align.

Unfortunately the only real way to make that difference is in software team management and then say goodbye to contributing code.

I believe there are still individual coders who make a real difference. It's vanishingly rare in server-side coding, but happens more often in niche fields such as game engines, compression.

I agree, but if you're in such specializations you likely don't have these complaints to begin with :D

> I kind of feel I have wasted my time/life on this career.

Software development has squandered the brightest minds on pointless work for decades. Your feelings are not wrong IMO.

Even back in the 40s this threat to Real Work posed by the computer's infinite ability to steal time from bright minds was basically already identified:

  > It's a very serious disease and it interferes completely with the work. The
  > trouble with computers is you play with them. They are so wonderful. You have
  > these switches--if it's an even number you do this, if it's an odd number you
  > do that--and pretty soon you can do more and more elaborate things if you are
  > clever enough, on one machine.... If you've ever worked with computers you
  > understand the disease-the delight in being able to see how much you can do.
  >
  > - Richard P. Feynman

>It's a very serious disease and it interferes completely with the work.

what he noticed is playing with computers can steal time from your other work, yes... but if your work is the computer it's not stealing time from anything

I'd argue that he was already catching a glimpse of the engineer trap that is a machine you can spend all your time playing with "engineering" in plain sight because there's no physical waste byproduct for everyone to see is clearly happening.

What amount of "software engineering" actually ship in products that see the light of day? How many "real job" programs have been written that were executed in production for longer than it took to implement them?

There's an endless mountain of wasted "work" in this field. The computer provides this infinite engineering puzzle and IMNSHO it largely serves as a huge mental effort sink depriving the rest of society of bright minds that could be doing something far more productive.

Software folks are regularly burning endless hours on effort to make something nobody knows ever existed six months later.

How many major projects has Google alone funded development of then terminated?

The "I will be happy when" trap is a dangerous one. Work on being content with that you have. Your health, your family, your friends, your hobbies. The fact that you live in 2023 and have the entire world of entertainment and information at your fingertips, something no human in the previous 200,000 years had.

> Everyone says ... a true engineer's paradise.

I've never had this impression of FAANG. I always figured there were a tiny number of people working on amazing projects, surrounded by a much larger number of people keeping the lights on, or working on very periphery projects that either no one cares about or which will never ship because of politics or business whims. Did you really think it would be ... paradise? Thinking that about ANYTHING is a recipe for dire soul-crushing disappointment.

> I've never had this impression of FAANG.

I have. It was a popular myth when I was coming up. I'm the same age as the OP (40, graduated in 2005). Back in the early 00s, google was seen by most as the promised land. Facebook was too, for a while. Those initial impressions, even though they were formed from afar, can be hard to shake.

It kind of still is in terms of compensation. And many equate promised land with compensation unfortunately.

It was more than money. Back then the crazy Faang pay bump was less of a thing. But the chance to be trusted with broad autonomy and work with brilliant people on projects that could help billions of people is something very special. People were drawn there by 20% time back in the day. This is barely a thing now, but the difference seems to be covered by the increased FAANG bucks.

By “20% time” do you mean the recommendation to spend 20% of your time learning?

>”Work on being content”

Is that a thing? I don’t think that’s a thing (separate from working on creating the conditions for contentment, which you might have a wrong idea about, but which are nevertheless real and out in the world).

Re. FAANG I feel this must have been true at some point? I knew people who worked at these places in the 2010s and they loved it. I think I must have missed the golden period. There are probably still great teams with great culture at these places but they are difficult to get into and are the minority now.

And you're right, my expectations absolutely set me up for failure.

I think a perspective check is in order. I assume you’re making somewhere north (maybe far north depending on level) of 400k a year which is about what the average person in the USA makes in a decade. Take a moment to appreciate how exceptionally fortunate you are.

As I see it your most rational options are the following. A) Learn the corporate politics necessary to get the work you want in the extremely privileged position you’re in. B) Phone it in, do the bare minimum, don’t stress at all, and collect until when or if you get pipped and let go. C) Combine the two. The highest review I ever got working for FAANG was for the year where I did the least work. Don’t misinterpret that as total slacking off btw, I still did good work, but I dodged every oncall shift I could and otherwise kept my work week in the under 40 hour range.

I’ve found two ways to rekindle my love for coding/programming after I experienced similar disillusionment:

1) switched to information security. I found reverse engineering, doing CTFs, and hacking things in general brought back the sense of joy I’d lost.

So I took a job reverse engineering/exploiting embedded devices with half the pay and loved it, which ended up being one of the best places I’ve worked (and the pay quickly increased as I loved what I did)

2) Eventually left that role (sadly) and built my own business — this is the only time I’ve truly had my building itch scratched, as the only limit was my ability.

Granted, this requires some soft skills like sales and business acumen to be profitable/sustainable (i.e. knowing “what” to build is harder than building generally) — but incredibly satisfying.

> switched to information security. I found reverse engineering, doing CTFs, and hacking things in general brought back the sense of joy I’d lost.

This really resonates with me. I did a binary exploitation class in my M.S. where we did weekly CTFs. I really, really enjoyed this - thanks for reminding me. Do you have any tips for breaking into the industry?

I did the OSCP, a 3-month course + exam that teaches an overview/the basics of infosec and more specifically pentesting

It’s a fairly well-regarded certification (and a tough 24-hr exam), and got me interviews for Senior Security Consultant roles at firms like NCC Group with no prior security background

I think a typical progression is something like Security Consultant/Pentesting at a consultancy and then transitioning to Security Engineer/Security Researcher at a more specialized firm

I was actually able to bypass this and somehow land my dream job (binary/IoT reverse engineer) immediately after seeing them post on the r/reverseengineering subreddit and just going for it

Besides the OSCP, what helped me land the role was playing microcorruption CTF

Happy to help if you have more Qs: ashwin@dopplio.com

You probably work at Meta. I am same age (over 40). If you are E6+, you have more lean-way on what type of projects you pick. Make sure to switch teams if you are not happy with your current situation/org, and make sure to get a good director (not, M1, or M2) to back you.

If you find a mature leader in your org, to back your initiatives, you will have a lot more leanway into what type of projects you pick and what type of work you do. It actually makes a huge difference. Also, don't get into the psc games, just do a good job, screw the ratings.

That's what I am doing, and it made me happier.

Ps. The alternative is to start a small project, that makes you happy. Something, very small and duable within a couple of months. (avoid over-ambitious projects). A utility, or a simple app. If it shows promise, develop it fruther.

I do not think many jobs will pay you $100k-$300k/yr with work from home.

> And you know what? It sucks. I could go into great depth why it sucks. But suffice to say, my expectations were sorely disappointed.

Working for FANG sucks. Go work somewhere else. Take a paycut settling for a different company.

There's quite a few - I've had three of those jobs at 29 years old (from pre-Covid). Look at angel.co or something similar to find startups hiring - they can be very remote friendly and rarely advertise < $100k.

Work on your marriage.

Stop pining for being 20something again; stop believing company PR.

You won a golden ticket; don't burn it.

This is a bit odd. I have completely turned my life around in my mid-40s by "pining" (well, actually acting on urges) for my 20-somethings again. I was helped immensely by some extremely good luck in a choice of company to work for that went public and netted me millions. But I took some agency, distanced myself from individuals and companies I thought were not aligned with my desires and needs, and am all the better for it.

More 40-somethings should have a little reversion, if you ask me. Society's ageist nonsense is psychologically--and physically, ultimately--harmful.

Exactly, there's no reason someone in their 60s couldn't also be as productive as someone in their 20s on technology that's only 6 years old to both of them.

The first point is more important. The second point mostly helps with getting the first point done. When other things get stable you can adjust things at your job, or just quit and do something else entirely.

Someone in their 20s often believes bullshit stories about productivity, and understands very little about the social practice of allocation of resources and rewards (aka politics). This can be easily observed by hearing statements like "you know, there is politics at place X!". Gosh, well I hope so, otherwise it would mean there is nothing valuable at place X (i.e. nothing to allocate), or there is exactly one person there.

> You won a golden ticket; don't burn it.

I'm gonna push back on this.

Assuming the OP was good with their money, they probably have a very nice little nest egg put away.

If he can take a pause and reconsider his career goals and aspirations without compromising his financial position, there's nothing wrong with doing so.

Staying in a role where you're miserable just because it pays well is just another way of describing a wage slave. A lot of folks have no choice but to live that life. But for those who have options (and if you're 20 years into a career and working at a FAANG, you probably do), there is nothing wrong with cashing in some chips, pausing, and reevaluating.

jesus. Some folks seem harsh here. You have one life, you're allowed to think critically about it, and weigh if you're getting from it what you want, etc.

I humbly propose that you start planning your exit from your software development career. Not forever, but at least long enough to rack up one or two alternative careers.

OR! I propose that the explosion of your marriage (and everything wrapped up in that) is the real gravitational black hole in your life (in a good way and bad way) around which everything else revolves.

My marriage recently blew up catastrophically, and it devastated me. I'm still not even sure what 'back to baseline' would look like, but I feel (disappointingly) fundamentally altered as a person. I generally believe we're all malleable enough, but I've got a lot of work to do, to recover a version of myself where I generally enjoy my own company.

Save money, reduce expenses dramatically, once you're at a 15-month runway pull the plug and leave.

I am in the same boat. 43 with wife and kids depending on my income but I honestly hate what I do. I am currently trying to focus instead of on my work but on myself. I have gotten deep into philosophy and ethics in particular. I will probably try to write a book or do a podcast at some point but I may just stay the course and enjoy having a not monetized hobby.

This is a good way to develop oneself. Doing the same work for a long time eventually takes the initial passion away but we can continue doing it for a living while working on other things. It's like earning a ticket to work on higher things. My job is boring as hell too but I grit through it after which I concentrate on things that make me grow personally. I do enjoy philosophy too but as a lurker only, but do have my own area of hands on.

This is a hard question because basically you're asking "where can I find joy?"

Which none of us can answer for you.

Elzbardico's comment is harsh, your response to it is totally fair, but I did want to highlight something in your response to them: "it seems the kind of dream team I want to be on is very rare."

I do think folks in this thread have a point that you are externalizing the source of fulfillment throughout your original post. Even now you have this idea that there is some perfect team of colleagues that will make you fulfilled. Another harsh way of saying it is: if you were good enough to be on that dream team, they would have pursued you at some point in your lengthy career.

You probably have enough money to have some freedom now. So... what next? Options:

1. Go volunteer, long term, committed, somewhere that truly needs help 2. Go full on hedonism for three months: travel, drugs, alcohol, sex 3. Go on short- to mid-length silent meditation retreats 4. Rent a car and drive around the country for a month with no plan

Eject yourself from the SE identity and see what's left. In that space, see either what brings you joy or piques your interest.

A year from now you might end up back as an SE, but it'll be with more intention .

Another way of looking at this is, skip town, hibernate while the job market sucks, come back in 2024 and maybe that dream job will exist anyway.

I appreciate this post, and while many parts of my career are different, I feel you. Sounds to me like you enjoy working hard with smart people…maybe try teaching hs math or something. The work is rewarding and you notice most incremental effort you put in. Staff vary but you can usually find a core group of coworkers who are passionate and idealistic. You’ll take a massive pay cut, feel exhausted after each day, and your soul will slowly heal.

Have you thought about counseling?

It sounds like you have a good income and might be able to afford one. Often people think they just help you with mental illness but they can help you figure out your goals.

+1 to talking with a therapist. If you’re in the US, you may have access to Lyra through your FAANG job, entitling you to a bunch of free-to-you sessions… but even if not, if you can find a therapist you click with, it’s worth the money, IME.

Yes I've done almost 2 years now of therapy. It's partially how I pulled myself out of my depressing hole and went after one of my dreams (join a FAANG). Despite how disillusioned I sound here, I'm actually in a better place now mentally than I was in the last 5 years.

You will not find meaning in executing other people's dreams

Who needs meaning when you can have fun?

I believe everyone ultimately does .. it’s like asking why people “settle”? Meaning IMHO ends up being more rewarding than fun

I don't know, people who say similar things imho haven't confronted death too much. When you keep examining "rewarding" things like that critically, I always end up realizing how temporary it is and how much I don't care about being remembered by people who would also be forgotten. I say you do you, whatever improves your experience of life without causing harm.

Ah.. I see where you are coming from.. I think most of the time I just live in a state of passive denial. You might see it as naive .. I can just say it personally works for me. But I think people who believe in an afterlife might also find meaning more rewarding than fun. I’m not saying either of us is right or wrong, just wanted to give you a hint of who might want to pursue some meaning in their life :)

I don't disagree with you, some of us just have a hard limit with a lot of those rewarding things. Living is better than dying and if you have to live then try to have a good time. Good things are pricey.

I am at the same stage! Currently in 40s, been software developing for 20+ years. Burnt out a couple of times. Now trying to get to a "just chill" stage. Still doing software development for a living (got family and life expenses), but no longer very emotionally involved in what I do. Fortunately, I am good at it, so everyone is happy.

Find a community, and serve: My community is golfers - people that want to play golf. I am serving it by building a side project that I know will solve problems... because I have those problems.

Another thing I have found helpful is meditation, and spirituality in general. Try it and see if that path is useful for you (tons of stuff on YouTube... start looking, and the right stuff will come your way)

All the best.

Let's turn this around a bit - what have you done that you feel proud of?

Use that to identify what you want to be next.

And in the mean time, they're paying you because it's work. It's an exchange - so just treat it as such; don't expect to always find meaning in a job.

I’m a medical doctor and I wish I became I software engineer instead.

You still can. And will probably be incredible as a developer in that domain.

Then there is absolutely nothing preventing you from doing that !

Your medical domain knowledge can be a very big asset. Where are you based ?

What's stopping you from changing right now?

Time and physical commitment. And probably the idea of job security if I'm being honest.

Oh no, that sounds like a tremendous mistake. If you want to write software do so as a hobby on your own terms. Don’t stop medicine to do this for a job. Success in programming for a job is more an administrative focus juggling many different competing priorities and technologies. The people best at corporate software are average at many different things as opposed to being exceptional talented in a focus area.

In reverse the guy that took my tonsils out started out as a software developer and hated that work in the corporate world. He went back to school and became an ENT surgeon and is great at it. He has his own practice and is doing very well. The trick is that he realized he hated it while still in his 20s and had the balls to spend a ton of money starting over in an unrelated career. I am so envious.

I bet you have a lot of good perspectives on how software could better serve doctors and healthcare. Keep practicing medicine, but give coding a try in your free time. Web technologies are the easiest places to start and have pretty good resources on starting from scratch.

Get into AI. It's a gold mine for medical stuff and your domain knowledge will really make a difference.

I'm a doctor (ICU) who also does some IT stuff for work (nothing complex, mainly writing small web apps). I really enjoy writing stuff where you know the requirements, make all the decisions, write the code and maintain it. However, doing this has allowed me to get some exposure to what bigger projects with lots of moving parts, data sources, stakeholders, regulatory requirements etc look like - and it's seriously hard work. Nothing like "coding, the hobby".

I guess this commonly occurs in many fields at a certain level of seniority - the "managing a large system involving many people" aspect can dominate the domain-specific part, be it software engineering, accounting, manufacturing etc. As such I'm really glad I chose medicine rather than SWE (even though I've been writing and loving code for >35 years, and it was a real toss-up when I went to uni) because:

1. You can still stay very hands on, even as a senior clinician, especially procedurally.

2. If you so choose, there's a lot of variety in what you find yourself doing as a doctor (my mix looks like making clinical decisions / talking to patients / families / doing procedures / performing and interpreting ultrasound / going to other hospitals to retrieve super sick patients and bringing them back in ambulances / mentoring / teaching / coding / managing a clinical service / etc - but there are lots of other options too). I'm not sure if this kind of variety is as easy to arrange as a SWE? (though I suspect I'm about to be corrected, thanks in advance.) Variety is quite important if you're easily bored, which is a common problem for bright people.

3. Although AI is coming to all fields, I do think the impact will look more like "better tools", rather than "job replacement", or "vast reduction in number of people needed", for longer in medicine (at least in my area). As a breadwinner this is a not inconsequential consideration.

Hope you find the career you love, and that it leverages the work and study you've already done in some way.

You would very much enjoy these things for 10 years, or 20 but eventually you get bored of it if you have to do it over and over.

>Nothing like "coding, the hobby".

I can relate; I chose Wall Street (the finance side, not the IT side) and now work for myself. While I used and use my tech skills every day, I have never wanted to write code for money. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36027171>

I have a very good friend who is a medical doctor and swapped to engineering. He bought some books and self studied. He's now working his dream job at a biotech startup trying to extend life, using both of his skills simultaneously. Based on what he tells me I'd say there is a large demand for the niche crossover of M.D. + SWE in the startup space right now.

Love hearing that. Inspiring!

I'm an optometrist but I wish I would have become a software engineer (or at least have discovered programming prior to graduating optometry school :/).

I got advanced with Microsoft Excel over the years, then started learning Python in my first clinic after graduation to automate some stuff the front desk was doing every day. Didn't know anything -- what exactly Python was (my friend told me to learn it based on what I wanted to do), what front end or back end were, etc. But I started and quickly fell in love with it. A little over two years later, I'm still programming almost every day, currently building a full stack JS-based web app of my own with modern technologies (T3 stack, MUI design system, etc.), and have already built a couple others. Still loving it as much or possibly more than when I first fell in love with it, as I become more “powerful”, capable, and efficient with experience/knowledge.

I realized that while I always enjoyed learning about biology/science (and actually just anything… math, graphic design, etc. etc.), and even optometry while in school, the actual day-to-day life of a clinician is not very enjoyable for me, or at least not the right fit for me. In a more pessimistic light, you could describe it as a combination of adult babysitting and assembly line work, while also often being behind schedule. My mind/sense of satisfaction is much more suited for engineering type work -- continuous learning, problem solving, detail-oriented work, etc. (but it took me time and experience to discover that). That reality stressed me out for a while, having “wasted” all of that time and money, but I’ve been learning to handle that while also realizing that I can still make big career changes if I put in the required hard work (which I've done before) to make them happen.

I'm in my early 30s, and while I do plan on fulling transitioning to SWE in the near-ish future, having optometry as a default or backup is actually nice. It pays well overall, is decently flexible, and both of those things allow me to currently be part-time while I work on my programming. Not only that, but I now have a unique perspective and experience, and am the "expert" in the optometry niche, so I know where there are good opportunities for new software AND intricacies about how the UX should be for the end user. The app(s) I’m currently working on are optometry-oriented, and having full control over building them feels very rewarding so far. Also, if I do make the transition to SWE and I end up not being able to find positions or settings that end up being satisfying enough to make the career change feel worth it ("the grass is always greener...", "you don't know what you don't know", reality checks, etc.), I can default back to optometry and continue doing my programming on the side either perpetually or until the right thing does come up.

Main points: if you became a doctor, you can (still) become a SWE. Your time becoming a doctor was highly unlikely to be completely wasteful. Just another fyi personal perspective/experience. I love programming.

Thanks for this! It’s inspiring and I feel I can relate. My specific field is amenable to shift work (e.g. working certain night or weekend shifts, and then being off during the week), which I think will help.

Oh ya, I don't know your outside of work life obviously, but it sounds like you can potentially get a lot of time in to make happen what you want to make happen, then! How long have you been practicing, or how long have you been programming?

In my experience the bigger, richer, and higher status the company or role, the less actual work you're allowed to do. The book 'The Innovators Dilema' spends some time theorizing at why this might be.

On the other hand if you're willing to work at an unimpressive, low status startup you can often do a lot of interesting things. Startups also tend to attract nerds who don't really care for status or impressing other people. They're more focused on the engineering problem at hand.

This isn't always the case of course, but playing the odds it's more likely.

Startup work is riskier and won't impress people the same way but you get to do stuff. Not pretend work that sounds good or is meant to promote people, work that you think up over beers at 7pm and then go code the next day at 8am (or 10pm that night depending on the startup).

They have challenges of their own, but for a certain kind of personality they're much more palatable than large companies.

Keep in mind if the startup is successful it will eventually grow into something that attracts status seekers and shifts to derisking rather than weekly hail marys. But the fun years can last a good while before that happens.

I think you’ve seen about all there is to see in software dev. I’ve been doing it 25 years and passed that point a long time ago. From here, you can switch to something more fulfilling, which almost surely won’t pay as well, or just suck it up like most people and realize nothing is pleasant for 40+ hours a week and enjoy the oversize checks.

If you do manage to get lucky and find a place like you describe, realize that too will be temporary, so the problem will be back.

Learn to find joy in the little, bottom-up things. Curiosity and humility are relevant. If you don’t, you fail in an evolutionary sense compared to those who learn to do this (it’s why commencement speakers touch on finding your passion — your situation is one on which they’re talking about).

Humility: look in the under-looked places for finding joy. And realize there’s always more to learn and to teach. Curiosity: try new things.

What do you mean by bottom up things? Something similar to building software bottom up vs top down? Simple tinkering?

Yes, exactly right re: tinkering I think. Exploring adjacent areas to work or entirely new areas slowly with a beginner’s mind aimed at carefully understanding and appreciating building blocks.

I like that aproach as well, especially when exploring new spaces or building proof of concepts

I want to give my 50¢ of advice here since I am too on my 40s and also began coding as young as 30 years ago.

After a certain time I realised that I would never be hired to work with what I really love doing and focused on working to pay the bills and use my spare time to pursue my real interests on my own. Some of the apps I wrote got to see the light of day and some not. Did it bring me money or recognition, no, but I certainly felt realised knowing what I can achieve or even for the fun part of it. I currently work with more managerial tasks related to cybersecurity, with no coding skills required, but it never stopped me from coding at all. I expect no recognition for the work I do there (but someone will sure want our heads at the next breach). There is too much politics at the office out of our control and to me that's where most BS comes from.

I've had my M.S. some years ago and it may be great to improve the code you write, but I would recommend it more for the networking, meeting and discussing with new people and raising new ideas. Currently I'm in the middle of a new undergrad course in architecture (building's architecture, not software architecture), a newly found passion discovered almost by accident. And I'm even considering another M.S. in this area. What can I say, I love the academic environment just didn't get to be a professor (yet).

So this is what I'd give as advice: No, matter how much they try to sell it to you you're not family. You give them your knowledge and time and they pay your bills (extra hours are not free), that's the exchange you're in for. Your work is not worth your real family so be there for them, spend quality time with them, do family stuff together. Find out what you like doing. Pursue your passions away from the office and get in touch with real people whenever you can, be it in an academic environment or a local group (you can even try and start one if there is none in your area but even community work does it).

Look into working as a SWE on research projects at a university or government lab. You can find places where you are working with competent passionate people from diverse backgrounds, and it can be rewarding and fun. Pay is substantially less than FAANG but worth it… especially if it comes with a pension and great benefits

Just expect to be treated as an brainless execution monkey at those places. I have done it in the past and quit after 4 months. Have a new grad of mine who took a 1 year contract with a lab and I want him to quit within 6 months as the kinds of people who tend to become researchers are also jerks.

Each lab is like a different small company and they have very different cultures. There are plenty of kind and passionate researchers that treat people with respect, and there are also plenty of aggressive and abusive narcissists. Unfortunately, it can take a while to tell which is which until you are there a while.

> the kinds of people who tend to become researchers are also jerks

Blanket statements like this are ridiculous.

> Just expect to be treated as an brainless execution monkey at those places

Each lab has a different vibe - some will suck, some will be awesome. Totally depends on where you end up just like a startup.

> I have done it in the past and quit after 4 months

Sounds like you got unlucky.

Agree with your rebuttal. I worked for 17 years in the university environment as a Sr. Faculty Research Assistant. Loved it for the most part. Yes, there are assholes (that's DOCTOR asshole to you buddy), but you can choose them as much as they choose you.

> you can choose them as much as they choose you

The last part is key, and many people don't realize it. Don't accept abuse or poor treatment. It is very very hard to hire competent computational people in bioinformatics because of the low salaries, and PIs know this. No matter how junior you are, or how big of a mistake you may have made once in a while- you need to enforce hard boundaries about being treated with dignity and respect, and leave if they can't be met. I got stuck in this trap for years, being abused by jerks and thinking I deserved it (low self esteem)... not realizing that they were lucky to find me, and would be very hard pressed to find someone else that could do what they needed.

It's also important to have an open mind, and work to understand the subject matter at hand you are working with. If you make an effort to understand what you are working on in more depth, even if it's not your main area of expertise, your work will be much higher quality, and you will get a lot more respect.

Personally, I started out as a SWE in academia, and slowly learned the subject matter I had been working with until I started to have as much understanding and new ideas as the PIs I was working with. I then eventually got a PhD and became a PI myself.

Who chases their career to fulfill their dreams? "My dad growing up told me that you know work hard, get a good job, you know, make money. Nobody has fun working and then you can have fun with the money you make." -Jimmy Yang

But to your last point, yes, just not in the private sector. Join the dark side and work government contracts, the pay is decent and you get exactly what you're asking for. You get to be technical, unless you want to be management...boring, you work your obligatory 40 hours and when you're done for the day that's it, go home. Everything's classified and no one bothers you when you're clocked out. People are competent and everyone wants to get the product out and the mission done without office politics. TBH superchill environment for senior engineers.

I'm not OP but I'm interested in learning more about how to get into government contracting. I was once in the military but have been in the tech sector ever since. This is a long shot, but my email address is in my HN profile, would you be willing to drop me an email?

> Everyone says how these are the best places to work

No they don't. Many people believe these are the best places to work, and the vast majority of those people have never worked there. They also tend to not have a whole lot of experience working as a SWE. I know many people currently working at or having worked for a FAANG. It was not the experience most had hoped.

As for me, I enjoy solving what I call real-world problems. These are problems being experienced by many people. By solving them you're actually helping make the world a better place. That helps me get through the BS that's part of every job.

Idk, I've had a great career for 4yrs - getting laid off in January has been a death sentence. I've found some startup consulting work but the industry is either pretty shot or my resume is a death knell.

I (hope?) it's the market. Moving from the US to Europe so leaving my job (which I enjoy) and so far have had zero responses to my applications both where I'm moving to and remote. Normally I get around 50% interviews and from those around 50% offers. I've applied for 30+ jobs and had zero response.

This market has thrown my whole life into question. Like did I only get here because the inflated bubble?

Fortunately I've been getting by on consulting work - but it's really been getting to me lately.

I am not as smart as you but still after spending a decade in industry learned few things on my way.

- your job can'not satisfy you always. There are good jobs and bad jobs. But good job can become a bad one in overnight. Nothig is permanent. So don't get attached to it, instead love your craft.

- the software domain is the easiest one to experiment. Having a computer and internet is enough to build whatever you want. If you wanna have kick by writing good code, just get it from your own project.

> At this point in my career, I'm thinking what else is there for me? I'm exhausted - tired of chasing the next dream for it to be a disappointment. I just want a job where I can flex my engineering skills without BS, work with good, competent people who care as much as I do, and be able to relax when I get home, knowing I've done what was expected of me. Does this even exist anymore?

I think you will still be disappointed. Perhaps try working for yourself instead?

The Head Of IT at my employer insists when he gets sick of his job and completely burnt out of his career he's retiring to become an alpaca farmer.

Not a bad idea… alpacas and goats could serve a lot more of the west coast eating up a lot of flammable brush. He could even starlink a small office setup and get paid to be on call.

There’s a book called Orbiting the Giant Hairball which might help reframe the relationship between you and your employer. The kind of experience you’re looking for is exceedingly rare, to the point where it’s detrimental to search for it. If you’re in a good position you may be better off figuring out how to change yourself than to change what is around you.

Read Ecclesiastes. It’s a text written by King Solomon about the hopeless search for a meaningful/purposeful life.

Why not go into startups? Your skills will be most valued and you’ll have a say over what you build.

You’re energy for challenge is a classic problem for intelligent people. After it all, deciding what is worth building is a greater challenge than how to build it. IMO.

Have you considered switching to architecture role? Granted, you code way less but it’s still technical and you have more power over what is being built. And the toughest technical problems is for you to solve. Also you care more about quality attributes (security, performance, availability etc.) than functional requirements.

Maybe you can try to find the same experience you had at your HFT job outside of your career? Can you work to find a group of people who you can work with to build something interesting per your own desires rather than a bossman's? Or do you need someone to set your constraints for the good times to happen?

Start a company and work on something you care about. Or just do something random.

It doesn’t need to be VC funded where you have to pretend you’re some baller.

Just do something fun.

It’s even easier when you have a fat bank account. Open it and breathe a sigh of relief that if things go south you’re still set for a long ass time / life.

Your life is on the line. Not just any part but the most intelligent, powerful and authentic part, which you've just entered. I will assume you're asking ~is this thing called "engineering career" worth my life?~ If you're not, good luck. My advice: do not ignore this call.

Worth, meaning, value, etc, stems from the framework through which you make sense of the world, aka your worldview. If you're a scientific atheist, then heck yes, what a bargain! Your life is entirely worthless. Eventually you'll disappear, then your family line will, then humanity, the Earth, our galaxy, and in the end all information will be permanently erased in a big crunch or its opposite, when atoms themselves are pulled apart by gravity, science is yet to decide which. If you are a theist (Christian, Hindu, and many more), then an inextricable part of you is the deity itself, and your life is worth everything.

These are examples. Neither I nor anyone else can give you a worldview. You have to dig for it yourself. Your inkling is the calling of your meaning in life, the lack of which you express. Almost by tautology, meaning in life is the most difficult yet rewarding thing you can pursue. I can give you some leads.

Christianity and Platonism are the Western civilization, to which your engineering career and therefore you belong. If you are ignorant of those, you will be fundamentally lost. Study those. Because you devoted the first half of your life to rational pursuits, trace the birth of mathematics and physics from Platonism. I promise, this history is replete with meaning. Study the worldviews of Galileo, Newton and Leibniz. Study Einstein and Heisenberg. But study their critics also, very importantly the deeply flawed yet unavoidable philosophical response called Skepticism or Anti-rationalism. Finally study a new twist on rationalism that can be called Creative or Open philosophy, first expressed by mathematician philosophers Henri Bergson and Alfred N. Whitehead.

The scientific method does not give life meaning. Philosophy leads to it, and religion (broadly re-ligio = re-connection, as in with the deity) is it. Yet there is a source of deep meaning hidden within science and technology, which is the main reason it's so powerful. You can find it if you look.

Large organizations often hate philosophy and fundamental questions because they already have their "correct" foundations. They want human cogs in their system. Trash all ideologies, seek out people whose life is deeply meaningful in books and life, and think deeply about your own foundations with your own open mind.

Don't worry the "ai" will replace you, just gotta be patient a little.

If this doesn't happen soon enough, use your extraordinary salaries and go buy a farm with chickens pigs etc. and start woodworking, you'll feel better i think.

Why not try to do something related to teaching.

Helping others is a great feeling and a nice chance of pace.

This is the kind of thing I was thinking when one of the other commenters suggested counseling.

Counsel others.

Maybe as you would want to be counseled yourself.

You have many years of disappointment and one common thread: you.

You need to figure out what’s inside of you that’s making you miserable — it’s not all of these jobs and all of these people, it’s you.

Therapy might help. Not being snarky.

"Those who see action in inaction and inaction in action are the wise among men." Bhagavad Gita 4:18. Speaking plainly, you feel depressed because you're emotionally attached to the results of your work.

Why not go back to HFT or more general quant trading? In my experience the direct link between work done and profits or lack thereof keeps the skill levels high and reduces internal politics.

Hey, I feel ya, hard: I'd go small company/startup. You have an impressive resume, and its easy to explain 3 startups in 5 years if it takes a bit to find a fit.

I think the closer you are to bare metal the happier you are. I could be wrong but I'm trying desperately to hop into a low level position.

> It is stressful for all the wrong reasons.

Could you elaborate on this?

It's pretty much the performance culture. It adds a level of stress which impedes my ability to do a good job. I also see a negative effect it has on others and the org's behaviour.

if you're truely that good , you should be able to create a great product that people want to pay for. Work for yourself.

I totally understand where you're coming from. To answer your questions fully, you need to break it down a bit. I myself am a 40 something engineer who has reached the peak of what I would like.

You basically have 3 categories of companies:

  - Start ups - everything is loose and fast, the goal is to ship something before the company falls apart. Lots of coding, but high stress

  - Mid size - there is old legacy loose and fast code but things are in some phase of stabilisation. There are lots of problems to solve and coding to do but usually less stressful and starting to see sensible engineering practices and decent culture

  - FAANG - whole mix of stuff because these places are enormous. I've worked for Microsoft and enjoyed that. I worked for Amazon and hated that. The projects differ wildly and it's very competitive. The bonus is you get a paid a lot and there are smart people to learn from, but the con is the less nicer companies are good at forcing you to compete with your teammates and kicking people to the curb

In terms of "coding is the thing I like to do", this is a tricky one. As you get older the expectation is that you take on more responsibility. Your skills change from coding to helping other people code and coordinate work. For a company it is hard to justify paying someone with lots of experience to just do lots of coding - they can just find young enthusiastic people to do this. Your selling point is dispensing that experience and wisdom to level up your team.

I currently do way less coding at work than I would like which makes me sad, because of my seniority. However, I do enjoy helping other people do better and making things more efficient, which makes me happy. I compensate for lack of coding by having days booked out where I just focus on hands on stuff. I also do some private projects where I can build and do whatever I want.

If you just want to do what pleases you AND make money, your only real option is to start your own company. However the reality here is that you will likely invest a lot of time in non-engineering stuff (and learn a load more skills) just to make your company successful. If you just want happiness then find a private project to work on or contribute to. I have personally found happiness just going back to a midsize company that appreciated the injection of experience I gave and respected that I enjoy coding. They care more than most companies I've worked at. But remember that the relationship between you and your company is a mutually beneficial contract, everything runs on capitalism. You are free to screw over your company for a more lucrative contract just as they are to replace you (within reason), it is a free market.

You are essentially trying to fight against the natural transition of a less experienced junior dev to a more experienced senior one as you age and that's a difficult one to win. If you're above average then it's just common sense that most people you come across won't be as good as you :).

In summary:

  - Happiness but not money - work for a company that appreciates you and does nice things. Charity organisations are likely to fit in here but there are companies that don't have sociapaths as managers believe it or not :). The nice ones are more likely to be non-US ones

  - Medium happiness and medium money - midsize company that still tries to keep its employees happy. Good ones will have flexible work polices like remote work, etc.

  - Unpredictable happiness and high money - FAANG (experience is very dependent on project and team, Microsoft is a good one depending on your global location)

  - Unpredictable happiness and unpredictable money - run your own company :)

same. how about OE?