On the other hand, it could be that Google owning Go makes the bigger difference. I know that Ian Lance Taylor created several versions of generics that got shot down, which must have been frustrating. However, I don't remember hearing the slightest bit of internal conflict from the core team. (I pick on generics because it was the largest and longest "conflict" in Go's history.)
The primary language developers/owners work at the same company, so presumably they have more bandwidth (behind closed doors) and more financial incentive to provide a united front. Or, they're just a pragmatic group of engineers with drama turned to -11.
1) MS taking control of something the community doesn't want them taking control of
2) Important open source third party library switching to a proprietary license
Rarely do you see drama centered around specific individuals like you see in the Rust or JavaScript communities. So I think that lends some further credence to your theory that the design goals of the language help foster specific cultures around them.
I always felt like he wrote down those non-final designs more as an effort to discover & document why exactly each one wasn't good enough, so they might guide the future design(s). I think he was well aware of the various flaws and unwanted trade-offs, and wanted them to serve as a guide to the conversation.
These conversations just don’t make the front page of HN.
You're kind of stating this as if nobody in the Rust ecosystem tries that approach first.
The only way to free a project from such entrenched rot is an ultimatum; "You can have the builders or the schemers, but not both".
> I was able to reassure myself, by checking these private discussion places, that there were good people, fighting for the right thing to be done. That things weren’t irremediably broken. That there was hope for improvement in the near future.
I…don't know. What…could he do? What would you tell him?"
To shrug.”
Anime/furry culture has a significant overlap with the Rust community as far as I can tell as an outsider. E.g. there was that guy developing a Linux GPU driver for M1 Macs, narrating it with an anime "waifu" avatar and a speech plugin that makes you sound like a little girl from a Japanese cartoon.
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35251905#35252948
2. Bunches of other threads on HN/Reddit/Twitter.
3. I don't mean this disparagingly.
As far as I can tell, this "Asahi Lina" is a cartoon figure, that's used for lip-syncing with a voice effect. Are you saying the real person behind the cartoon is also called "Asahi Lina"?
On 4chan's /vt/ the euphemism for this is "roommate" discussion, and any posting of details about "roommates" is a bannable offense.
Of course being 4chan some users will eat bans (primarily when they're upset and want to spite other users), so some details of some known roommates do inevitably surface from time to time; but ultimately casual discussion of it is taboo.
Hope you understand!
I mean, I'm fine with people pretending that. But you can't expect or force me and others to play along... :D
If the creator wants to stay anonymous (for which the cat is out of the bag in this case, I'm afraid) we may refer to him as "the guy behind the cartoon", but I can't pretend that the cartoon is the real person... That's just stupid...
Like, let's say you're playing Dungeons & Dragons with your friend over the weekend, where you're an elven warrior or whatever. But you can't compel your colleagues or the Starbucks clerk to treat you as an elven warrior next Monday when you go to work :D
I have a friend who is going through this.
also, ironically, Starbucks makes it a point to ask for your name, or however you want to be called. you can tell them to call you Dark Moon or whatever. and workplace inclusion protips are also exactly about this topic, how to accommodate those who are different. small changes mean a lot to a lot of people. of course asking a whole team to WoW night elf cosplay with you every workday from 9 to 5 is not an easy ask, and it's reasonable to say no. where the line is unsurprisingly not an easy topic, but there are some usual minimum effort, like remembering the names of coworkers.
It's concerning that this needs to be spelled out.
it's not that big of a mystery that the new possibilities that have been opened up by this new medium might lead some people to feel they belong more there than in meatspace.
it's seems like the virtual version of putting on a fursuit and going to a con. no one is forced to watch/listen/interact with her, but if they do it seems evident to use the requested pronouns, etc.
(and I'm not talking about this meta-discussion of whether Lina is animated by Marcan, but even in this case, to me it seems common sense courtesy to treat Lina as her; like a character in a book, who might have different intentions than the author.)
Lol. I just stated what's already out there. It's like "blowing the cover" on the voice actor of Spongebob Squarepants...
Japanese Okama culture, for instance, is an entirely different animal. I don't know this specific person just thought I'd share that misgendering isn't as black and white as even a lot of trans people think it is.
Not that people should be shamed for their personal interests! Everyone should imbue some of their personal style in their work, that's how we generate creativity and so forth.
That being said, I think the problem is when personal style overlaps too much in what needs more professional separation and distancing. It seems like that can be a recipe for too much ego that creates rifts.
There is a risk that we start turning a serious endeavor into a personal project / hobby, or worse just treating it as a joke; leading to situations like:
Up until recently, I was part of two private online discussion spaces where a bunch of Rust people hung out.Garner's Modern English Usage
She's more of a "loli" character as far as I can tell. (Which can also be disturbing, but for different reasons.)
Note I'm not weighing in on the culture itself, because I don't care - I'm just noting it because it's kind of ridiculous to try and use it to dogpile onto the Rust ecosystem and what it's going through.
Whatever is going on in Twitter land and with the drama around conferences and boards is a different world, but they aren’t necessarily one and the same.
But on twitter, it’s all tribalism and attacking other languages and other people. Gives a distorted figure of what the community really is.
I guess if your passion is reverse engineering M1 macs and porting Linux to it, for free, there is a decent chance you are highly introverted and perhaps even a savant.
If you ask an average software engineer, or even a talented one to do it, most of them won't be able to crack the problem.
If not, can you explain to me like I'm extremely stupid and need a very clear step by step connecting of the dots, why it even remotely matters in the slightest?
Just look at the official and unofficial Rust servers on Discord.
I love this.
On one hand this is an indicator for our expectations. Adult stuff should be handled by adults, with wisdom and maturity.
On the other hand it is a sample of reality as it is (distinct from the shoulds we project) - no, corporations and adult organizations are not led/ruled by mature people, and not everyone acts wisely all of the time. This is the reality.
I like to believe that acknowledging that and creating organizations to be resilient in the context of immaturity, pettiness, confusion… humanity(!) is the way.
We do have some examples of nature leadership but these are the exceptions to the rule. People are people, let’s figure in their humanity.
So what I’m interested in are org structures supporting and correcting for fairness, wisdom, maturity.