12 years since Saab’s bankruptcy: Secret NEVS electric cars revealed | Hacker News Reader

12 years since Saab’s bankruptcy: Secret NEVS electric cars revealed

vibilagare.se

140 pointseriksdh133 comments

I can't vouch for the historiography, but Top Gear's account of why Saab went wrong is worth watching.

"At one point, a GM accountant went over to Sweden to see why Saab was costing them so much money. And he got into the new 9-3, turned on the satnav, and thought "Wait a minute. That's not one of our systems." And he was right; it wasn't. Saab had developed -- at vast expense -- their own system because they thought GM's wasn't good enough."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iBgVUDUdqE

And they were not wrong sadly.

My wife drives a fairly fancy GM and it astounds me how terrible the infotainment system is. And they’re dead set on doubling down on their homegrown software and freezing out CarPlay. Shaking my damn head.

I want to root for GM, I really do, but I swear they’ve never seemed to learn a lesson at any point in the last 100 years. I never owned a post-GM Saab, but I can’t imagine the Swedes were wrong in their assessment.

I'm also in a fancy GM and I can't understand why I can't tell it that I prefer Car Play and not Android Auto. I still get alerts from AA about setting up my account etc. I wish I could uninstall all it's components.

Notifications on your phone? I have to give it to Android -- the notifications are really really customisable; you can change the sound of individual notifications and even turn them off if you want.

No notifications on the screen in the car. There is a red exclamation mark over a bell icon that won't go away unless I set up Android AUto.

It's not just the infotainment system. They have (had?) a problem where the traction control would randomly engage while parking. This was bad in trucks (skid marks and dirty looks for chirping the tires were pretty common), but in the early Bolts it caused the regenerative braking to disengage, so the car would unexpectedly accelerate when it should be pulling to a stop.

On its first tank of gas, our old GMC failed to start after being parked for 10 hours because the computer left the ABS system on overnight. It also had crazy software failure modes where the dashboard would go nuts and the onstar system would start making strange sounds.

Arguably, the software was one of the better subsystems of that truck. Never buying GM again. Our old GMC was the best truck we've ever owned. (Much better than our new Ram 1500, which can hold less weight than our old Volvo 240 station wagon).

Hopefully the F-150 electrics aren't hilariously bad.

> (Much better than our new Ram 1500, which can hold less weight than our old Volvo 240 station wagon)

Hey the Ram 1500 is twice as heavy as the Volvo 240. Poor thing is too busy carrying itself to deal with your cargo.

RAM 1500s are truck-shaped cars. When you add in Stellantis, it’s a brand best avoided.

Fun fact: 1 in 22 RAM 2500 drivers has had a DUI. Source: https://insurify.com/insights/car-models-with-the-most-duis/

> And they’re dead set on doubling down on their homegrown software and freezing out CarPlay. Shaking my damn head.

This is going to go badly for them. A lot of people (all iOS users) will not even look at a GM. The used market for them will suffer as well. But, hey, if you need a really cheap used car in 5 or so years, and you don't care about Carplay, GM has you covered!

Just buy the cheap car, rip out the head unit, and replace it with a CarPlay compatible one.

Assuming you’ll even be able to do that…

Could be a nice money-making opportunity.

Can't do that if you lease the car, which a lot of people do.

Technically, you could, but you'd have to put back the old system on lease end.

The GM ones are terrible. And now they are getting rid of CarPlay because it was competing too well.

That's exactly why you'd buy a SAAB. And it's exactly what you'd want if you bought SAAB. The problem was that GM bought and murdered SAAB. They thought the brand itself, without the expensively engineered cars carried value. Evident by then strapping the SAAB brand to a few really lousy cars (A Subaru? Some hideuous SUV thing with zero SAAB to them other than the badge).

SAAB was financially failing when GM bought them. It's tough to blame GM for trying to impose financial discipline on a money-bleeding operation.

Imposing financial discipline is one thing. Mistaking ephemeral "brand value" for engineering prowess and reputation (typical of marketing-oriented mgmt), as cited above, is quite another.

Being required to optimize for another real-world constraint (i.e., cost in this case) is more work, but ultimately just another task for an engineer. Being required to not engineer greatest-practical-stuff, but just slap the name on some junk is not the same thing, but marketing people can't see that, even though customers can.

I'm concerned about the Chinese ownership, but that seems murky now, since NEVS bought a stake or strategic partnership, then got bought 51% by Chinese real estate conglomerate Evergrande, which is deeply in debt, and NEVS is now in "permanent hibernation mode", essentially liquidating. I wonder if there's opportunity to get it back in control of democratic nations. Anyone have deeper information?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEVS

Saab had been nationally subsidized for a while and I think expected to receive support that didn’t work out. It was strange how all projections showed failure but they continued on.

Not sure why Sweden decided to make them go independent, but if GM hadn’t bought them, they would have died sooner

The people running and working at GM have no “taste” or appreciation for quality. They are unable to see or care how bad their products are, or how much better the competition is, and they also market exclusively to customers with the same issue. If they could see the huge flaws in their products and understand why SAAB would build their own, they could make their own vehicles decent in the first place.

Driving a modern GM vehicle and being aware of these things is infuriating. They are really quite awful- aesthetically, sonically, performance wise, etc.

and soon to be the mobile information gathering platform that google has always dreamt about. while removing the niceties of car play.

Some years ago I had a Malibu as a rental. The thing had all this chrome on the dashboard that reflected the sun right into your eyes as you drove. How on earth did anyone approve a car interior design that constantly blinds you?

Ha, my Fiat Panda can top that. The gauges in the instrument clusters for speed and rpm, have concave shaped plexiglass windows on them[1], so when the light hits them at just the right angle, they turn into a parabolic mirror and focus the sun in single spot burning a hole into your eyes.

How the fuck did anyone think that putting parabolic mirrors facing the driver was a good idea? Shit like this should be illegal and worthy of a recall.

[1] https://prod.pictures.autoscout24.net/listing-images/3fbd33c...

Every car I’ve ever owned has solved this.

I’m taller than average. With the steering wheel at maximum height, the instrument cluster is blocked by the wheel.

An interesting part of this is that if the bottom 75% of the windscreen was painted out, it wouldn’t change the visibility I have.

Cars seem to be designed for a very short average human.

Ugh, yes. Also the B pillar is right next to your head so your peripheral vision is blocked and you can't see traffic lights if you're first in the queue. Crossovers are worse than "real cars" too because the stupid high-up seats mean the underside of your thigh isn't supported near the knee like it is when you're lower down with straighter legs in front of you.

> SAAB brand to a few really lousy cars (A Subaru?

What?! The 9-2x Aero was dope!

It was actually cheaper than the wrx for a while so it ended up being a savings if you bought the 9-2x aero vs the proper Subaru.

Exactly. I've still got my 2004 93 (the last of the Saab Saabs). It has been a fabulous car.

That's a GM platform car:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM2900_platform

GM already had 50% controlling share of Saab way back in 1989 and by 2010 they were wholely owned by GM.

I had a 1998 Saab 93 (2L petrol LPT) and was initially disappointed to find out it used the same platform as the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra. That said it still had those distinct Saab design touches and was pretty damned good in the snow and ice.

Even the 900NG which the 9-3 derives from was a GM2900 platform car.

If you had one with the B204/B234 motor, and not the V6, then it still has a Saab engine.

Sure, but it's the whole package that matters.

Which was actually a Triumph engine, although extensively revised by Saab by that stage.

If Theseus’s Ship had an engine, it’d be the Saab B2x…:-)

They're not wrong. Saab's demise, in my opinion, started with GM. The Saab 900 was bullet-proof, but the 9-3 put me off Saab completely. It was based on GM's Opel Vectra platform and shared some components. It also has the dubious honour of being one of the least reliable cars I've ever owned - and that includes the Alfa Romeo!

There were two 900s. The first one was a SAAB platform. The later one was based on Opel. That car was turned into the 9-3 later.

The second-gen 900 was a mish-mash of various Opel and Saab parts, but had Saab drivetrain, "wrap-around" wind-shield (sort of), rear-axle, etc. It developed into the first-gen 9-3.

The second-gen 9-3 was GM Epsilon-something-based and had GM drivetrain.

Yes that is right. I’ve always loved the first gen 900 since we had a three door one when I was a kid.

Interesting to see Top Gear wax nostalgic on Saab when they regularly sh*t on them back in the day. Saab pushback on GM is good now but was bad then? I suspect their takes had no small impact on sales. e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCpjyC6h9J4

Reminds me when they were shown to have faked problems with a Tesla they were reviewing.

Many car enthusiasts I knew at the time took the show for gospel

You don't get a Saab 93 cupholder without putting in the effort

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLpW4VMVWoQ

Devastatingly, mine is stuck and i cannot unstick it! Thankfully the 2005 9-3 has another cup holder, but i miss the pop out.

They should have thought, “wow, this system should be in the rest of our cars and it’s already developed.”

Companies can’t identify high performing small teams, because the managers that run ocean liners and tankers can’t understand how to run a small ship — and the incentives are generally reversed or at least radically different.

You can be assured it was a bean counter not an engineer or product person for sure — said with love.

Oh, it wasn't just the satnav.

When GM developed the Epsilon platform for small/midsized cars, they knew Saab was onboard to use it for the 2nd-gen 9-3. Saab also always had a 900/9-3 convertible, so it was assumed that other GM divisions could borrow from Saab's work for their own sporty/convertible Epsilon-platform models.

Nope.

When the GM North America guys saw the BOM for the 9-3, there were enough changes from the shared Epsilon components list that there was no economy to be gained by sharing the parts with the Pontiac G6 convertible. Saab made lots of expensive changes to the structure, supposedly. But...people seem real happy with their 9-3 convertibles; happier than the few I've met who've experienced the G6.

I think Bob Lutz, in one of his books, talks about how Saab insisted on doing lots of things themselves or going with a different vendor than GM NA or GM EU. Like the previously-mentioned satnav, HVAC components, power window regulators.. things where some other part of GM would have a cheaper part that was better tested and likely more reliable, and that the customer would never see. Of course, GM should have let Saab continue doing its own interior trim, including its fantastic seats. And they did make Saab their center of engine control electronics and turbo powertrain development, for a time.

For some reason, lately I’ve been depressed on practically a daily basis by the death of Saab (maybe due to playing a lot of DCS and flying the Viggen; also in no small part due to my first car being a Saab). Lots of their cars continue to look quirky-great today (like the Viggen). I wish they continued to exist as an alternative Euro sedan, but alas.

Given the demographics of the Saab customer base, I think it could have been an interesting and canny move if GM had launched the Volt as a Saab. I think they expected it to become a super mainstream vehicle, and so they were never going to relegate it to a niche brand, but in retrospect it might have been an optimal move - maybe it could have saved Saab and not been a disappointment for Chevrolet. All they would have had to do was stick the start button between the front seats and turn it over to the designers in Sweden to give the interior and exterior a quick once-over gloss.

One of my kids is going to start driving next year. I’m shopping used Saabs and trying to convince my wife to let me get one for the kiddo. No luck so far.

While it obviously depends on what other cars you’re considering, Saabs are very safe cars [0]. Could help in convincing your wife!

[0] https://youtu.be/c1Z284Fv0cc

It would be interesting to re-test past 5 star NCAP cars in 2023, see how they hold up.

There are some tests like that. Here's one (not 2023 though):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwGgRUkrnng

None would get more than 3 stars as you can't get a higher score without active safety systems. Pretty much all results would be compressed in the 0-2 stars range. Even if a 2003 car would be perfectly safe in a rollover or a offset frontal impact it would be deducted points because it doesn't have lane assists or drive fatigue warning or radar cruise control (barring some S class or 7 series that might have had these features).

I was t-boned by a Chevy avalanche truck that was going 35 miles an hour.

Both cars were totaled. The avalanche driver and passenger were taken in away in stretchers. I and another passenger were fine, one passenger had a laceration from broken glass and one had their arm jammed.

The Saab was really amazingly designed for safety and everyone was shocked that I wasn’t paste as the center beam on the side was pushed in about two feet.

Back in the early 90s my brother, a new driver, was driving my dad's 900 turbo on a wet road at 60mph, dodged a plastic bag on the road, spun out, and went into the trees. Totaled the car, dented every body panel, and snapped a ten-inch-diameter tree like a toothpick by ramming through it with his driver-side door. Only injury: passenger had a cramp in his calf from pressing his feet so hard into the floorboard as they spun through the trees.

Nice! Definitely going to give that a shot. I don’t think we’re actively considering anything in particular yet, but a ~10 year old car from a brand with a strong emphasis on safety seems ideal for a teen driver from my perspective. Not sure about the parts situation - is it possible that they were mostly drawn from the GM parts bin toward the end?

In that video, I cracked up at “a designer with… another Swedish car company.”

There is still plenty of parts to get, the Swedish government took over the spare parts so some parts are sold by Orion [0]. I have yet not failed to get a spare part that I need for my Saab 9-5 -04.

[0] = https://webshop.saabparts.com/

Edit: Missed a very important not in the last sentence.

You can still get parts, although if you're going through your mechanic they can be expensive, especially if the mechanic isn't a SAAB specialist. I do think its worth looking to see if you can find a SAAB specialist. When I was based in NYC, Swedish Underground was by far the best SAAB mechanic I ever used (it was booked usually 1-2 weeks in advance with just Saabs) and everything that was fixed, stayed fixed.

+1 for the importance of a good Saab mechanic (if you’re not working on it yourself). I think the deciding factor on if I buy another Saab in the future is my proximity to a decently rated Saab specialist.

Saab AB that designed Viggen is still active and a separate entity to Saab Automobile.

Saab JAS 39 Gripen being the latest generation aircraft.

Yes. And from what I understand, they’ll never license their name to an automaker again. So even if somehow Saab-cars-the-company could be resurrected, it would be under a new identity (like, say, New Electric Vehicle Sweden or whatever it was called - doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue).

My favorite bit of Saab trivia is that in the 60s, Norway offered Sweden half of its mineral interests in the North Sea in exchange for 40% of Saab. Sweden declined.

And Norway got super rich because of their oil.

But good industries may be more long term beneficial and maybe creates a more healthy and sustainable society compared to oil money doping.

Pretty sure that deal included Volvo as well, which was always bigger, particularly also including the trucks division.

Not sure how serious it was though, and maybe it is only a fairy tale.

I mean, I think Norway has been pretty responsible with their North Sea windfall. I don’t think one can really especially criticize them too much for anything they’ve done with Statoil/Equinor or their public petroleum fund. And given Saab’s demise and the sale of Volvo to China, I’m not sure that Sweden going it’s own way demonstrates a more sustainable model of industrial democracy.

You’re right though that I should have caveated that trivia - I’m not certain about the specifics or the essential truth of it. Still an interesting counterfactual to consider.

> I mean, I think Norway has been pretty responsible with their North Sea windfall. I don’t think one can really especially criticize them too much for anything they’ve done with Statoil/Equinor or their public petroleum fund.

And the story of how their sovereign fund came to be is quite an extraordinary one.

For those interested: https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feab...

Edit: and an enticing excerpt

> But al-Kasim’s most immediate problem on arriving in Oslo that morning was how to fill the day […] “So I decided to go to the Ministry of Industry and ask them if they knew of any oil companies coming to Norway.”

> He deposited his luggage and walked to the ministry, where he was received by a baffled official who told him to come back that afternoon. When he returned, expecting only an address list, several men were waiting for him. “They were keen to know what had I been doing, what kind of education I had, whom I worked for. […]” His request for a list of possible employers had turned into an impromptu job interview. […] At the time of his surprise call, Norway’s oil administration numbered just three officials, all in their thirties and all learning essential parts of the job as they went along.

https://archive.is/RI9pj

Volvo trucks is still swedish.

What I meant was not that Norway has spent their oil money irresponsibly.

Just that they are not (quite) an industry nation.

It is a bit like comparing a person that wins the lottery at 18, although spending it wisely.

Compared someone working their way through life.

Who has a healthier life in the long run?

(I am a swede an my whole post has a not very subtle smell of jealousy, just like person 2 in my example probably has)

As a Norwegian, yeah you're not wrong. We have a lot of challenges to overcome as the oil age is coming to an inevitable end, although there are many here tho refuse to see the writing on the wall.

NEVS - National Electric Vehicle Sweden

SAAB - Svenska Aeroplan AB (Swedish Airplane Limited Company)

If you call SAAB SAAB, you might as well call NEVS NEVS :)

It was Volvo, not SAAB :)

Which is now Geely motors. I guess China was more persuasive.

Volvo back then wasn’t just Volvo cars (which Geely bought) but also what is now Volvo Group (trucks, buses, etc).

Thank you! Sorry for the misinfo. Motivated reasoning, I suppose.

> My favorite bit of Saab trivia is that in the 60s, Norway offered Sweden half of its mineral interests in the North Sea in exchange for 40% of Saab. Sweden declined.

Never heard of that. Feels like an obfuscated version of the Volvo-Norway deal that Volvo's CEO PG Gyllenhammar attempted. Are you sure you are not mixing things up?

I miss SAAB but they died way before bankruptcy. I had their last model 93 that was basically a reskinned Chevy Malibu. And it was very different from the post GM buyout 93 and 900s that I loved.

During Covid I got an idea to get a Saab project car and a 2001 93 cost $11k. So I guess there are a few crazy Saab lovers out there.

I hope they make a comeback. I still don’t know quite what it was about them that made me like them. It wasn’t just their oddness of being the Platypus of cars.

The Epsilon platforms was used for a lot of cars, some Opels/Saab etc. I still feel the 9-3 had a lot of SAAB to it in every detail. Using platforms and engines doesn't make the end product just a badged Chevy. For a proper SAAB rebadge, look at the 9-2X. They didn't even try with that one.

I had one and it was terrible compared to the previous gen 93.

You can find quite a few for cheaper, especially in the Northeast. My current Saab is nearing its end of life, and I'm _so_ tempted to get another one, even if it doesn't really match my lifestyle anymore

> Given the demographics of the Saab customer base, I think it could have been an interesting and canny move if GM had launched the Volt as a Saab.

Absolutely. I drive a Polestar now, and my sense from the Polestar community is that many of us are frustrated Saab lovers. A new Saab EV is definitely something I'd be interested in! (Not that Polestar owners would make an especially huge market on our own...Just like Saab!)

ex saab 900 turbo (very used 1982...died in 1990 in a wreck when i was 22), also fascinated by Polestar.

may i ask how you like it?

I love it. The Android Automotive software can sometimes be a little flaky, but that's really the only issue I've ever had. Handling is great and the power and torque are very very intoxicating. (Not unlike other EVs, of course.)

For some, the 270 mi range is probably a bit of a turnoff. But if you live in Europe, or one of the parts of the U.S. where everything is close together, there's no issue at all. I would probably not buy one if I lived in Wyoming, but I doubt that's your situation.

Is Polestar really Swedish though? How much engineering input comes from the team in Sweden?

As far as I know, quite Swedish. Lots of shared development with Volvo which has lots of development as well as manufacturing in Sweden, but I don’t think the Polestars are assembled in Sweden.

Ok yeah I'm curious as I looked into them a few months back and saw they were manufactured in China.

As a consumer it is hard to know which EVs are designed and engineered in house (with outsourced manufacturing) versus a brand that has been repurposed (MG for example)

I think the Polestar 3 will be manufactured in the US though.

Yeah. That's a fair question to have. From a design perspective, it seems unmistakably Swedish. And it is built on a Volvo platform (same as the C40 recharge, as I understand it) with a lot of Volvo parts. Its seatbelt buckles even say "Since 1959"--referring to the year Volvo supposedly invented the seatbelt.

On the other hand, they are indeed manufactured in China. And Polestar is a joint venture between Volvo and Geely (Zhejiang Geely Holding Group), a Chinese company. Volvo Cars itself is also also owned by Geely. So China is not just the country of manufacture, if that's something you're concerned about.

Why a front page saab post when I am on a no laptop vacation. No moving essay from me for saabs demise.

Currently driving a rental car and finding these new vehicles a disaster for the human race. You can't even see out the front and you have more degree of blind spots than visibility.

I can't wait to get back to my home airport and fire up my trusty steed, my rock steady my 88 900T

Please consider writing that essay when you get back!

It's sad as some of the designs presented look awesome... EV sedans and SUVs that simply look "good" and not quirky are somewhat rarity. Even traditional car makers somehow make really unappealing EV designs.

So much this! Putting on my trusty tinfoil hat. May it be, that the oil industry "convinced" carmakers to do so? TF hat off.

Well, the Tesla Model 3 and Y just look like regular cars. Maybe even too regular and boring...

I've owned a few pre-GM Saabs and absolutely loved them. I'll never forgive GM for killing them.

My understanding is that while yes they were great pieces of engineering, they weren't profitable. They would have died on their own without change. GM tried to change that by having them re-badge existing platforms, but Saab made changes anyway which increased cost and made them incomptible. It was a classic engineering vs management situation.

There are quite a few of those once great brands that ran into trouble: Saab, Volvo, Jaguar...

The latter two are doing a reasonably good job today under new ownership. A pitty Saab didn't survive so, those were pretty cars.

I think what did them in was that the auto market is operating on thin margins, and with ever increasing R&D costs for new platforms, it was inevitable that the small vendors would be knocked out.

Yeah, it kind of was that as well. That Saab ended up with GM didn't help neither. For some reason GM is pretty good in ruining their international brands. Ford almost did as well, but kept Jaguar alive long enough for them being saved by Tata Motors.

GM probably centralizes decision making in the US and no matter how much you try, not everything can be piloted from the US. Several big US tech companies do the same and we'll keep seeing them failing in the international arena for the same reason.

For some strange reason, not everyone in the world is an American or thinks like one :-)

They really underplayed their lack of compromise on things like safety and whatnot tbh. People should have seen them as quality above and beyond and be willing to pay a lil premium for that but i'd guess the average person saw em as fairly mediocre.

I'm not scandinavian but kinda wish Sweden had been protectionist towards saab (& finland to do the same with nokia). That kind of protectionism shouldn't be as looked down on as it is especially when it's prevented so selectively and the lack of it has lead to a less broad, less competitive market in many areas.

There's still Koenigsegg, volvo/polestar & related, scania, etc but other than koenigsegg those are all foreign owned now.

be willing to pay a lil premium for that but i'd guess the average person saw em as fairly mediocre.

No, the average person barely cares for quality, vs cost. The average person will buy the cheapest thing possible, even if it means it lasts a year instead of 10, at a 20% discount.

You can see it in all the "made in china" stuff, mostly sold as in-house brands for retailers. Whether Europe, Canada, the US, people but these retailer brands, this junk, and seem, bizarrely, happy.

But then the average person thinks they can profit at the casino, and cannot think beyond today.

> No, the average person barely cares for quality, vs cost. The average person will buy the cheapest thing possible, even if it means it lasts a year instead of 10, at a 20% discount.

Not on the car market, or there wouldn't be such a proliferation of SUVs and pickups which are a useless waste for 90%+ of their users, and there would be few luxury/mid-tier brands - everyone would be driving around in the smallest Dacias and Skodas.

Cars are a status symbol, and many people would prefer to pay more for the same car with a different badge indicating a higher status - case in point, the VW Group has a big range of brands, with cars being pretty much identical outside of small changes in visual design (interior and exterior), and VW (mid-tier) and Audi(higher-tier) outsell the "cheap" Skoda and SEAT - https://www.statista.com/statistics/275868/sales-figures-for....

I'll do you one better: Porsche Cayenne not only shares a platform and some systems with the VW Touareg, the rear doors are interchangeable.

The Koenigsegg Agera is still an absolute classic for me.

I think you're right. Saab died for most Saab lovers the day they released the first GM re-badge, which was not only ugly, but also pretty crappy.

GM saved them in 1990 and gave us one of the best modern vehicles, the Saab 9000. They're a fantastic leap ahead of the 900 which dates design wise to the 70s. A 1992 900 and 1992 9000 are miles apart engineering wise. The 9000 handles, drives and has better power than a 900. It was a sweet spot in great ergonomics, design, engineering, without too much complexity

the Tipo Quattro platform deal with Fiat, Lancia, and Alfa Romeo had no GM involvement and it was finalized over five years before GM ever bought controlling interest in SAAB-Scania.

True but saab would have been bankrupted by the time we got the 9000 Aero undoubtedly

Saab 9000 was nice, but also damn expensive. My family had a Saab 93 when I was little. It was a very nice car, but very noisy. The Danish name for it was “fart organ”, literally.

More likely, the car had exhaust system leaks.

(Ah you are referring to the two-stroke Saab 93 from 1950s!)

Sorry it was a Saab 90 from memory. It was Bordeaux red and had these funny looking rear lights in the rear screen. 1980 vintage.

The first year for the 9000 was 1984. It was face-lifted in maybe 1991?

First year of the 9-5, which could be seen as a successor, was 1997. It was not a "rebadged" GM but there might be GM-sourced components.

The 9-5 shared more with GM in both directions. The 9000 F25/F35 transaxle was used in opel and some American cars

Did something change where NEVS is actually going to ship something? Doesn't seem like it.

Sniff. Just had an '86 Saab 900 SPG flatnose project car hauled out of my shop after letting it rot in there untouched for 6 years because I just have too much else going on.

Those cars were special and loved for their esoteric nature and because they were on the forefront of car engineering choices that later became common. Turbo, front wheel drive, double wishbone suspension, etc.

But mostly because they were pretty no-compromise on driving. Longitudinally mounted (backwards!) engine for better balance and no torque steer. Dashboard controls at driver line of sight, no looking down and futzing. Key between the seats to prevent hypothetical stabbing injuries from the key during collisions. Lovely rounded glass for better visibility and fewer blind spots. Even extends to maintenance: Dash hood opens forward instead of up (hard to describe) so home mechanics can get more ergonomic access. "Backwards" mounted engine made it easier to get in and replace belts, etc.

The "odd" body shape wasn't just a design choice, it was all in pursuit of ergonomics for a superior and safe driving experience. Like the complete opposite of a Tesla (or many other modern cars) with their ridiculous glowing distraction machines plopped in the middle of the car.

The GM-built Saabs that followed didn't really keep a lot of the advantages that the 900 had, though they kept some of the quirks.

And honestly these NEVS concepts, they've been buzzing around for years without actually shipping anything. And I'm not sure they're "spiritually" akin to what the 900 represented.

Please someone make me an EV with longitudinally mounted motor, distraction free dash, excellent visibility & minimal blind spots, compact or subcompact or coupe body style...

But... a coupe like the 900 with an emphasis on driver ergonomics would flop on the North American market today. Not big enough to thoroughly flatten cyclists and pedestrians and terrify the drivers next to you.

Though I'd buy one.

Wheel mounted electric motors are not that new. The problem of wheel mounted electric motors is the problem of the unsprung mass[0]. The thing is, that you don't want such things, at least for higher speeds. Also Schaeffler was working its version of the E-drive wheel for years. Just another release of another (new) version about 10 years ago[1].

Also working on inductive charging is nothing new. Just from the release, it is unknown how god that worked. I new research that is more than 10 years old on inductive charging for cars like in parking spots or at a traffic light. The problem of inductive charging still today is, if you are not perfectly aligned you will waste a lot of energy. That is why the charging in the smart phone are all have magnets. That's to guarantee a perfect position. Should car snap in place, when you are in your parking spot?

So while this release is interesting, it should not be to exaggerated.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass [1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/schaeffler-and-ford...

Wheel mounted electric motors were used in 1900 in the Lohner Porsche (1). So not that new.

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner%E2%80%93Porsche

"The thing is, that you don't want such things, at least for higher speeds..."

Verge cycle has a wheel mounted engine and from what I can tell it's not exactly "slow":

https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/us/

Unsprung mass doesn't slow you down per se, it just ruins your ride quality and makes the vehicle harder to control. It's simple kinematics.

A friend of mine, an auto mechanic and Saab lover, drives an old Saab 99 from the early 80s. It has gone over 45k Scandinavian miles (~300k US miles) on the original engine and still going. He will swear any day that no better cars than the pre-1999 Saabs were ever made.

Damn, that is one nice car. Had the reputation of being the car former hippy teachers drive, but I always loved them. Get me an Aero so!

Wait, Saab made cars with odometers that actually use Scandinavian miles? Is this a Saab thing? Or are all cars sold in Norway/Sweden set up that way?

I’ve never heard of cars in Scandinavia using that measure. Hint: I grew up in Scandinavia in the 80ies.

The Scandinavian Mile[0] exists, but it's not a thing in Denmark - just Sweden and Norway. There is a separate Danish mile, but I've never heard anyone talk about it in Denmark, although you can still find the odd mile stone [1] using a mile that's different to both the Scandinavian one and the UK/USA one.

But yes, using the Scandinavian mile for a car's odometer would be strange even by Swedish standards.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_mile

[1] https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milep%C3%A6l

They don't, the odometers measure kilometers. The "mil" (10 km) is simply the smallest distance we care for in terms of a car's state.

I think 45k miles is just a way of saying 450k kilometers. We use the term "mil" a lot (1 mil = 10 km), but easy to confuse it with miles when using it internationally / in English.

No they are always in kilometers (and sometimes with one decimal), but in Sweden we never really discuss individual kilometers in terms of a car's usage, only Scandinavian miles ("mil") - one of which is 10 kilometers.

My first Saab odometer only had 5 digits (Saab 96). I remember it cycling past 99999, resetting, and ultimately driving it to about 13000 miles :)

Counter point: the gearbox in the Turbo 99s & 900s is notorious for breaking because the construction of it was originally spec'd out for the torque of the non-turbo engine and Saab never revisited this when it put a turbocharger on the engine. So the gears can break under the additional torque.

Also one of the reasons, as I discovered, why the 900 is sadly not a good candidate for EV conversion. The transaxle would just break to pieces if you put the torque of an electric motor on there. Especially considering for a car like that you'd want something sporty.

They can even put a small speaker that simulates the sound of a tractor. Volvo can do the same with their EVs, and optionally include extras such as roof leaks and faulty electronics to stay on brand.

There's a guy up the street that collects old SAAB's. They do not sound like "a tractor" at all. Strange idea.

I've seen europeans call a lawn mower a tractor so maybe it's a cultural difference in what the sound is like?

Diesel engines are more popular around europe for cars and tractors. Brands that dont balance their engines well have this annoying ticking noise. I can tell if a saab or volvo is approaching just by the engine sound, it’s hilarious.

i'm an american that calls a lawn mower a tractor, so long as it is a tractor that happens to have a mower deck underneath it

It's a safe bet the first model they build from that selection of designs is the SUV.

Every EV car company out there is chasing the SUV market

edit: I got my odds backwards.

Wouldn't 100:1 mean it's very unlikely?

yeah Im not a gambler. got it backwards =)

I mean "certain to happen"

It is very unlikely. NEVS ran out of money and fired everybody except a small skeleton crew back in March [1]. You hear about their would-be Saab successor designs now because they are trying to find an acquirer for them [2].

[1] https://www.carscoops.com/2023/03/saabs-ghost-comes-back-to-...

[2] https://www.vibilagare.se/nyheter/flera-foretag-intresserade...

and if they do find someone to acquire them, and they are successful, the first EV they produce will be another SUV

Unless I'm misreading the article, they are not building any of them because NEVS also went bankrupt...

Had the privilege of owning one of the last Saabs for 5 years: a 2010 "NG" 95. It had GM fingerprints all over it, but still held onto some quirky originality. It was my 4th Saab -- my son is now driving my 3rd as his first car. All my Saabs needed TLC when I bought them, but were reliable, safe, fun to drive, and nice to look at. It wasn't uncommon for people to pull over at a gas station while I was fueling up to chat, or tell me they loved my car.

My NG was the best car I've ever owned, and I sorely miss its uniqueness on the road today.

Anybody has some insights into who actually owns it? Getting lots of bits and pieces from the Wikipedia articles depending on language [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEVS

Nobody. Per the Wikipedia article, the company folded 2 months ago.

Here’s my understanding:

Saab the name and the crest is owned by the airplane company, and they will never again license it out to another automaker.

NEVS, a Chinese backed company that acquired the assets of Saab-the-car-company, has ceased operations and is basically in liquidation for the benefit of its creditors. I presume it doesn’t own much other than an outdated factory and 10-year-old IP. There are no more employees other than administrators attending to the disposal of any remaining assets.

The future does not seem bright at all for any sort of Saab car resurgence :(

Reply on news.ycombinator.com