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Comment by blindriver | Hacker News Reader

Complete mistake by Tesla. The superchargers in some areas are already clogged up, if there's a long line to charge it is getting rid of the one market differentiator that Tesla has that most companies wouldn't invest in. The supercharger network is one of the reasons why I stayed with Tesla instead of getting the BMW i4.

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Tesla is opening new Supercharger stations in the US, each with 8, 12, or even dozens of connectors, at a rate of around 1 stations per day:

https://supercharge.info

At this rate they'll double the existing number of stations in ~5 years.

I have driven thousands of miles around the east coast and have waited in a line once around 3 years ago.

The Superchargers in the Bay Area are often full. And now that all Ford EVs can use Superchargers my point is that experience may change for the worse.

> Complete mistake by Tesla.

Another way to spell "fuck the people, why should their life get better ?"

Half joking aside, supercharger usage might save Tesla if their vehicles stop selling well enough a few years down the road. People's taste come and go, infra will always be needed.

> fuck the people, why should their life get better

But the lives of many people are getting better and I bet the net effect is positive, even if you as a Tesla driver (like me), now has to wait a little longer.

Totally agree. I'd posit if chargers become a bigger profit center, Tesla will also have even more business justifications and capital to extend the network and improve it over time.

Totally agree, having your own in house Chevron as a backup plan just in case, seems like a smart choice in the long run despite the trade off. Plus gives you a reason to build new stations in markets where your own car sales don't justify it.

Yeah. You're right. They probably crunched the numbers and determined all the pluses for them outweighed the exclusivity plus.

I don't think this is a mistake for Tesla. They probably know that the next few years competition is going to get tough for their cars. Everyone is moving to EV.

So how can you make money on this? Be the one providing all them the energy and charging infrastructure. It's a better business than the car themselves and are likely to have less competition due to the fact that car companies aren't going to want to build out the infrastructure themselves.

They still keep a competitive advantage by having their cars have faster charge times due to having the latest charging tech.

> They still keep a competitive advantage by having their cars have faster charge times due to having the latest charging tech.

Teslas are middle of the pack for charging. Hyundai's E-GMP platform cars for example (Ioniq 5, Ioniq 6, Kia EV6, Genesis GV60) are capable of 10 to 80% in 18 minutes at their fastest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J46mG7I78Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM

Own a Hyundai Ioniq. The whole fast charging thing is cool but you also need to find a charger that can do it, reliably. Things are getting better on that front but it’s not quite as good as the Supercharger network yet.

That's only useful if the fast chargers for them are actually available though.

In Europe you can go ahead and charge your BMW i4 on a Tesla charger. Europe wisely set a common charging standard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ

Incompatible charging infrastructure is a profoundly stupid outcome. All brands of charger must charge all brands of EVs.

It's a mistake to support closed infrastructure. Demand more and better.

It's great Europe chose a common standard, but the CCS plug is just a horrendous bit of design by committee IMO. The difference in size alone vs NACS (the new name for the open standard for the Tesla connector being adopted by Ford):

> https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/...

> In Europe you can go ahead and charge your BMW i4 on a Tesla charger.

You also can in the USA at some Tesla super chargers and new ones going forward, thanks to Tesla's new Magic Dock at the US superchargers (they now support both CCS and NACS). While a common standard would have been nicer, this is a relatively neat solution that lets a single cable work for both standards and provide DC fast charge.

> https://insideevs.com/news/657335/tesla-magic-dock-rollout-m...

Not actually true, the standard didn’t work. You cannot charge a non Tesla on European superchargers despite them using CCS2. (Though they are now opening up superchargers to non teslas everywhere)

What's not actually true? The video I linked to demonstrates a BMW i4 charging on a Tesla V2 charger.

Europe uses CCS Type 2 Combo. Teslas sold in Europe use CCS Type 2 Combo. Old Tesla chargers were retrofitted with CCS plugs years ago. New V3 and V4 Tesla chargers in Europe only have CCS plugs.

Until recently the plug compatibility was irrelevant, as there was no way to start supercharging on a non-Tesla car.

So.. your complaint is that Tesla has been a multi-brand charging laggard? That Tesla could have and should have opened their chargers a lot sooner than they did through software updates since they were already using compatible hardware?

Yes, that's true.

No, my complaint is your statement is misleading, because you were praising Europe's standardization and yet it did not include standard payment infrastructure and or require interoperability and therefore failed to create interoperable fast charging.

The video you linked to is not a result of that standardization, but of Tesla deciding to open its Supercharger network. They are doing this in US also despite not yet having a standard plug, so you could make the same video today in the US. The rollout of non-Tesla charging at Superchargers is more or less in the same state in both regions, so therefore the standard plug did not help.

> The rollout of non-Tesla charging at Superchargers is more or less in the same state in both regions, so therefore the standard plug did not help.

It is not.

There are 11 Tesla charging sites open to all EVs in the US. There are many more than that in Europe and there's no need for goofy adapters. That's the usefulness of standardization.

Use Tesla's own map. Turn off all options except for "Superchargers Open to Non-Tesla". Compare the US and Europe:

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=55.56650460365597%2C...

Try using A Better Routeplanner to plan some drives in Europe. Use any EV model with CCS. Configure the planner to prefer Tesla charging sites over other charging networks:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

I agree standardization is better. And yes, they started this program in Europe about a year before the US. My point still stands that your original comment was misleading.

> My point still stands

It does not. You are comprehensively wrong. It's difficult to see how you could be more wrong.

He was correct, it was not the result of the plug standardization. It was the decision to open the SC network.

Yeah, but in Europe Tesla now needs to actually compete against a big choice of EV car manufacturers and models. That isn't great for Teslas profits when they actually have competition across the whole market from different brands. Musk stock investors aren't profiting.

I remember being worried when Tesla released the Model 3 with a pay-per-kWh scheme. Was that one supercharger by the mall on the way to Tahoe going to be full all the time? Are all of these mass-market sedans going to make me wait?

That did happen a little bit at a few legacy superchargers, but that minor inconvenience was outweighed by the sheer preponderance of additional superchargers built, everywhere. Instead of worrying about the sole charger being full, I can look on the map, and choose among several nearby chargers, each with reasonable meal options.

I hope this happens with Ford. More cars should increase demand for stations, and additional stations increase convenience for everyone.

The situation is even worse as the cable length on the supercharger and the port placement on non Tesla evs means every non Tesla blocks 2 chargers.

Hopefully something ford sorts out when they embed the port in 2025.

The V4 superchargers have a longer cable, though they’re not rolling out yet. The length is challenging because the cable is liquid cooled.

The first V4 Tesla charger was deployed in Europe recently. It has a CCS plug on it so you can charge all brands of EV:

https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/19/23689247/tesla-v4-superch...

Oh, I missed that they started deploying them. All European superchargers have CCS.

Yeah, I hope Ford improves port placement on their next generation models. TBH, the whole industry should have standardized port locations when they did CCS.

The superchargers have short cables, so they are worse, but CCS stations have issues with charger placement too. People often end up parking on the "wrong" side of the charger that they actually use due to weird placement issues.

I've seen a guy with a Taycan reposition his car at least twice to get an EVGo cable to reach. Its a bad situation all around.

Why? You already bought the car lol. This is Ford paying Tesla to enable their car use as well. Those stations probably just became some percentage more profitable

> The supercharger network is one of the reasons why I stayed with Tesla instead of getting the BMW i4.

I still got the i4, CCS coverage is good enough, but ya, superchargers are pretty common on longer trips. I'm going to do my first roadtrip tomorrow (up to BC for a short holiday), hopefully Electrify America in Bellingham is open without much of a wait.

This won't take effect until 2024, Tesla are massively expanding their already massive supercharger network, and the software routes you to the least-busy charger.

This is a huge win for Tesla. They own the "gas stations."

Seems like you are assuming this deal doesn't include investment from Ford to build more stalls.

People are always spreading FUD about Supercharger congestion but the number of superchargers is always increasing at the same time.

Agreed. It virtually guarantees I won’t buy another Tesla. My other car is a Ford (ICE) and I like it. This makes a Ford EV an easy decision.

They didn’t WANT to do this, your government has overreached and forced a private company to do this.

No, they enticed Tesla with some sort of tax benefits or something. They weren't forced.

They literally threatened Musk if he didn’t eventually settle a deal.

Threatened how

> literally threatened Musk if he didn’t eventually settle a deal

This is nonsense. Congress gave him tax breaks.

Seems like a great result to me.

More government overreach if this is what we get!

It's not overreach lmao

Then I'm glad the EU forced them to open it up. Imagine if you could only fill your ICE with gas from the car manufacturer's filling stations? Vertical integration can help with costs but it also is pure lock-in.

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