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Comment by sremani | Hacker News Reader

It's a barbell. The Ironclad guarantee or default, there is no mid-rating for USA. This is just wall street pageantry to drum up noise to get a compromise.

If you think it's GOP brinksmanship you are entitled to, but a savvy operator knows, It takes two to tango.

edit1: note: the keyword in the above post is 'savvy operator'. I am not taking political sides and happy to bet $1000 that at the end of the hour there will be compromise. I have seen this song and dance before. So please take your political talking points elsewhere.

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If you think it's GOP brinksmanship you are entitled to, but a savvy operator knows, It takes two to tango.

You don't need to be a savvy operator at all, you just need to have followed US politics for more than a few years. The parties have been doing this since, what? 2014? We're going on a decade of this. Both parties do it and always compromise just fine in the end. Blaming one party or the other shows a distinct lack of self-awareness.

> Both parties do it and always compromise just fine in the end.

When have the Democrats refused to raise the debt ceiling without conditions? Maybe they have and I've just missed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_d....

Reading through history, it seems it has always been Republicans doing it. You could even say they invented it.

That was my recollection, but I thought maybe I'd gotten it wrong.

Gotta say, the "takes" I've read on HN while this has been going on have been illuminating. If quite a few people believe this is a "both sides" thing and that both parties are playing games with the debt ceiling, it explains how the GOP could possibly think it's sound strategy. I guess maybe they're even right. It would never have occurred to me that a lot of folks are "reading" this as about-equally the fault of the Democrats, but evidently, they are, and that explains some things.

To be simplistic about it: Republicans want to reduce spending, Democrats want to increase it.

So obviously Republicans would be against raising the debt ceiling, and just as obviously it's the fault of the Democrats that we need to raise it in the first place.

Does that help you understand better what people are thinking? And who they are blaming?

This is disingenuous though. The debt ceiling is about paying for spending that was already budgeted for. The spending has happened.

If the Republican-controlled House wants to reduce spending, they can do that during budget talks. That would be an appropriate time. And it's their Constitutional power.

What they are doing now is using the threat of default to try to get spending concessions. So they are trying to reduce spending, but the debt ceiling is not coupled to it. It just happens to be a piece of leverage they currently have. This entire thing is in bad faith.

> is using the threat of default to try to get spending concessions

I mean McCarthy went on the record to say "We won't default". That's like .. the opposite of a threat.

It's so weird to me how Democrats keep thinking there's actually a possibility of a default, while every moderate and Republican knows very well there is zero possibility of it.

There must be something in the mentality of how people view the world that causes this correlation.

> Does that help you understand better what people are thinking? And who they are blaming?

It... definitely helps me understand what I'm seeing on here better, yes.

And something to note, every single time the debt limit did eventually get raised.

And likewise spending did get reduced, although not maybe as much as Republicans would like.

Basically the two parties need each other. And the best legislation happens from a mixed Congress.

I don’t recognize a meaningful distinction between setting a budget and raising the debt ceiling. Others are certainly free to.

If you can control your tribal reflexive emotions, you are a savvy operator in my book. ;)

> If you think it's GOP brinksmanship you are entitled to, but a savvy operator knows, It takes two to tango.

Do you believe the Democrats would decline, if the GOP House offered a "clean" debt ceiling increase?

So your assertion is that the gun the GOP is pointing at the US economy isn't a big deal because the economy has a bulletproof vest on?

Or you think that the Democrats are to blame for not capitulating to a hostage-taker's demands?

I'm not a trained economist, so I can't weigh in on the "how big a deal is this really" conversation. But I know how the debt and the debt ceiling have been explained to me, and it sounds as though the "debt ceiling" should not exist. It is not a budgeting item. It is an arbitrary constraint that now only exists to allow the Republicans to play chicken with the world economy.

Want better spending habits? Want federal budgets tied to fiscal caps? Write a bill that requires debt to be factored into budgets at the budget building stage. No one should get to tell the Treasury to stop payment on things we've already told citizens and bondholders we would pay for.

Of course, building a budget on an annual basis is too much for Congress, too, which is why we should radically transform our federal government. Articles 1,2 and 3 need a rewrite. I digress.

It's basic leverage and negotiations. The GOP has to show their base they fought and hanged in there. Just like Democrats have to show that they stood firm. This is more or less PR stunt for respective bases and hoping other side would flitch to get a better deal. A last minute deal will be ironed out and everyone wins.. well except for future American citizens.

You presuppose that posturing is never dangerous or immoral.

Posturing that you are willing to nuke the economy is bad, even if it's fake.

The threat of default has been a tool wielded solely by conservatives. And negotiating with terrorists (destructive threats to achieve political ends) is never "compromise".

It's a divided government, no need to be melodramatic about it.

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