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Comment by tombert | Hacker News Reader

I agree, though it does kind of feel like we're in the minority on this.

I thought Ripley's character was substantially more developed in Aliens than Alien. In Alien, most of the humans exists to be victims (or potential victims) of the monster. In Alien (at least in the directors cut), we have Ripley coming to terms with the fact that she outlived her daughter, developing a maternal bond with Newt, and fundamentally just growing as a character.

A part of me hates Alien 3 so much that I just pretend it doesn't exist.

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> A part of me hates Alien 3 so much that I just pretend it doesn't exist.

Agreed. Though I still count it as part of the original Alien trilogy. It felt like the story was a poor mix of the preceding two. The setting was confusing - a desolate forgotten prison colony that were miners or metal workers - a mill of some form? Worst one of the three BUT I will watch it any day compared to the next three turds which become more and more painful to watch. It was boring.

Resurection was forgettable - I dont remember much save for Ripley is bought back from the dead, captive aliens escape from their inescapable pens (tired trope), Film finishes with Ripley fighting a hybrid human-alien on the space ship made from her DNA (it has a ma ma moment) and must have been made of boogers as it gets sucked out a little hole by a modest pressure differential. Basically another boring remake of Aliens.

Then there is Prometheus and Genesis. I can't even begin to explain the seething hatred I have for these two - genesis being beyond infuriating. Basically the plots of both films are moved along by all the characters being awful at the jobs they are experts in or completely oblivious. But, hey at least the visuals were "breathtaking" or at least that's what the critics said... I wish these two steaming piles never existed.

I choose to believe Prometheus and Covenant are actually parodies. They're actually pretty funny if you watch them with that in mind.

"We're on an alien planet with an unknown biosphere so let me angrily take off my helmet because it's slightly uncomfortable; oh noes I've been infected with some alien virus; how could this possibly have happened?!?! Absolutely no way this could have been prevented in any way whatsoever!"

Also interesting satire/social commentary on COVID masking and such if you think about it.

Covenant - right, I somehow thought it was Genesis - well it kinda was but god was it dumb. We watched them both back to back the day after watching Resurrection. drunk and high and riffed on them mst3k style so it wasn't bad watching them but when I saw it was in fact Scott I was furious that he accepted those lazy scripts. Wikipedia says two more films are TBA, another Prequal and "Untitled Alien film" for Hulu. God help us.

Covenant was even slightly better than Prometheus. At least the drpid was a nice adition, experimenting like an obsessed crazy scientistbtrying to re-create the xenomorphs. And ending up with his own human colony to continue experimentation was nice, new touch.

Prometheus was, as you said, a combination of incompetence (in film) and some steange views on evolution and the source of life (out of film). Especially the latter rubbed me in the wrong way, because it was just unnecessary for the plot. And hell, that the planet was literally a neighbor of LV-426, really? Just why?

Heck, I liked AvP and AvP 2 better, at peast the last one could have easily been set in space, with the smallntown being some unsuspecting colony in the Amercan Arm or so. And Predators woupd be such a nice explanation why you find Xenomorphs all over the place, once the Engineers went extinct.

Oh, and the black goo. Still no idea what that was good for anyway. Create or destroy life? And if so, why? It did serve as the basis for a really well written RPG adventure, Chariot of Gods. One I'd love to see as a movie actually. Or Destroyer Of Worlds, also a good basis for a script.

Thinking of it, one thing I like about good RPGs is the world building. While movies canbget away with whatever they want, consistency be damned, RPGs, the good ones, need some consistent and good bavkgrpund universe to work. And Alien has, with its RPG, a good basis for that. Pretty sure so, that none of that will be used for the future films.

Dave Feloni and Jon Fabreaubdidba great job in bringing in the good elements of the Star Wars EU, now Legends, into the new canon with Rebels, Mandalorian and Boba Fett. Heck, we get Thrawn's return at the same time (9 ABY) than in the orginal Zahn novels. When you know the old Westend Games stuff, d6, on Tatooine, you see similarities as well.

Edit: The story of Alien:Isolation isn't too bad neither, I have yet to play the game so. Personally, I like the aspect of how different the reactions to those Xenomorphs are. Some want to exploit them, some want to destroy them, some want to bread them. Most don't care about the loss of life involved. A nice view on modern capitalism. Because nobody asked the Xenomorphs how they feelnabout being exploited, they might as well just be happy hibernating in their hive, tending ever so often after their eggs. Plus, it is humans spreading them, Xenomorphs have yet build and pilot space ships.

I should have replied sooner but distractions...

> Covenant was even slightly better than Prometheus. ...

The thing that bothered me a lot was no one really questioned the droid when he changed his appearance to exactly match that of the crews own droid. Did they just think it was cute or something? WTH? And general ignoring the creepy as fuck robot and falling into its traps. Just ... stop it already. It's like those old ed wood horror films where the actors clearly throw themselves into the monsters mouth and flail about screaming. They just kept walking into the jaws of death. The dumb scene where the stereotypical "fat stupid southerner" captain childishly risks all lives on board for his wife and had to be stopped by other crew - ugh WTH, dumb scene.

They tried to tie the two together with a grand story that never really coalesced - but it could have provided better writing. Alien was a great unseen monster suspense horror - in space (no one can hear you scream) The crew was just a regular . In Aliens the marines were competent fighters but had no idea what they were up against, were massively overwhelmed and a brutal fight for survival ensues. And it was that rat-fuck son of a bitch Burke. Whereas Prometheus left me angry at the crew's own stupidity and general incompetence with corporate greed framing the whole thing. They also continued the brutal "kill the previous film's survivors" trope from Alien 3 which was depressing (a good description for Alien 3 really - depressing.) I wish those two could get a do-over with a more solid story and truly suspenseful action. 8 meters... 7 ... 6 - cant be that's inside the room - its read'n right man look (beeping intensifies) I love that film.

> Prometheus was, as you said, a combination of incompetence (in film) and some steange views on evolution and the source of life (out of film). Especially the latter rubbed me in the wrong way,

"I'm a gruff expert in mapping - watch me two balls map this place out, yeah!" next scene: "fuck mate, we're lost!" Me: "HOLY SHIT, YOU JUST MAPPED IT OUT! LOOK AT YOUR FUCKING ARM!" Another adjacent scene: "I'm an exobiologist: watch me cosplay Steve Irwin and taunt this CLEARLY VICIOUS sharp-toothed snake alien thing in the water while repeatedly warned by the guy who is smart and clearly backed away ... fuck I'm dead." Everyone dies by folly but the crazy android and the woman who escapes in a flying croissant - advanced space faring pastry technology?

Unlike the alien trilogy there's no hero to root for throughout the series - the seemingly new heroine who survives the first film is dead before the second film. Only the shitty man-child droid survives and wins in the second film - twice. Eh. I guess experiment with a villain? But you don't care for him at all, its not like he's the lovable or relatable anti-hero type, he's creepy AF and you want him dead. I guess we have to wait for the third installment for him to finally get killed, unless he's already dead by the films starting point. No cat to outlive the crew either -lame.

> And hell, that the planet was literally a neighbor of LV-426, really? Just why?

This one really made me laugh. Like oh wow, right next door to your dead rock planet colony destination was the blooming origin of life on earth and other planets. Talk about a serendipitous find. I guess the astronomers they hired to scout potential planets to terraform were frauds or blind.

> Oh, and the black goo. Still no idea what that was good for anyway. Create or destroy life? And if so, why? It did serve as the basis for a really well written RPG adventure, Chariot of Gods. One I'd love to see as a movie actually. Or Destroyer Of Worlds, also a good basis for a script.

I dunno what that black stuff was either, a mutagen? A macguffin of sorts. I think it somehow ties into the origin of life theory, like it was their bio tech crap that spawned life here on earth and other planets? Maybe there was more to the story but couldn't be adapted to film or wasted too much screen time with back story and was cut.

> Heck, I liked AvP and AvP 2 better, at peast the last one could have easily been set in space, with the smallntown being some unsuspecting colony in the Amercan Arm or so. And Predators woupd be such a nice explanation why you find Xenomorphs all over the place, once the Engineers went extinct.

I have never seem them. I'll have to give them a go. Predator 2 was kinda half crap, but 80's over-the-top cheesy good. I remember seeing it as a kid and while some of it was fun I also remember being bored at times whereas I really liked Predator. You got the into to the gruff commando crew and their personalities, watch them complete their mission, then something goes very wrong and one by one the commandos are killed by an unseen specter until the strongest - ARNOLD FUCKING SCHWARZENEGGER - kicks its alien ass - then it goes nuclear suicide. I kinda miss those over-the-top 80's actors and films. Thank cocaine I guess.

I hate 3 largely because it felt like killing Newt really shouldn't have been on the table.

The last act of Aliens was all about saving Newt, sort of a redemption story for Ripley. Sort of the mantra of "the Aliens could kill all these people but I will be damned if I let them take this child". By saving Newt, Ripley wins the only battle that actually matters in the movie.

I feel like having it so that Newt is killed five minutes after Aliens ends really cheapens it. Ripley isn't redeemed, the Aliens did win the only battle that mattered .

Prometheus was pretty horrendous. Every character in there is a moron and we're supposed to be rooting for them.

I'm one of apparently 8 people who connected with Alien 3. Haven't seen it since high school (on its original release), but I found that it expanded the universe into a mystical aspect (which was reinforced by a comic book at the time where there a religion had sprouted up on Earth that worshipped Aliens). And I loved Fincher's visuals.

I wonder if I'd still enjoy it if I watched it again now, though.

We could have had Gibson's Alien 3. With a lead-in to a hive-Earth movie.

Instead, we got a "no guns" and trashing everything that was great about the second movie. I have a difficult time reconciling it with the fact that it's a Fincher movie.

I never really got over the fact that they killed Newt in the first five minutes of the movie. To me it sort of negated the entire third act of Aliens, which was all about saving Newt and somewhat of a redemption story for Ripley.

To be fair to Fincher, didn't he want to take his name off of it because he problems with the script?

The way I see it, new movies don't modify old movies. The third movie cannot nullify the ending of the second movie because it cannot modify the second movie in any way.

How could it be any other way? Because "canon"? It's a senseless concept. Suppose I buy the full rights to all Alien intellectual property, and then commission a prequel story in which Ripley cruelly murders a dog for no reason. Does this ruin the first movie, by making it into a story about a heroic dog murderer? No, I didn't change the first story at all. Owning the IP doesn't make me into a time traveler who can retroactively modify the meaning of art created in the past. Even if I were the original creator and not just somebody who has the IP rights, I cannot travel into the past and modify the meaning of things already published.

> Suppose I buy the full rights to all Alien intellectual property, and then commission a prequel story

you just summed up Star Wars 1-3, only without having to buy the rights issues. so, yes, "prequels" and "canon" can harm the existing movies, or at least how people feel about them.

> you just summed up Star Wars 1-3, only without having to buy the rights issues. so, yes, "prequels" and "canon" can harm the existing movies, or at least how people feel about them.

I know a lot of people feel that way, but it seems like self-inflicted harm to me. In the 90s I thoroughly wore out VHS copies of IV, V and VI. I came out and I thought it was a dull stinker (except podracing.) I really didn't like it, but it didn't change how I felt about the earlier movies which I continued to enjoy. They continued to be exactly the same movies they were before, it was just the new one that wasn't good. Midiclorians cannot devalue the original movies because they objectively weren't in the original movies. If you choose to believe they're now in the original movies, retroactively, because the IP holder says so decades later, how is that not a self-inflicted wound? When I hear these kind of complaints about later movies ruining earlier movies, all I can think is "stop hitting yourself".

> The way I see it, new movies don't modify old movies

Star Wars 7 showed that the celebration at the end of 6 was premature. The Empire is still out there and is still a match for whatever government exists. Luke, Leia, and Han haven't won. The misery continues for another 40 years.

Star Wars 8 explained nothing.

Star Wars 9 "somehow Palpatine returned".

Fuck Disney and fuck everyone they hired.

Defending Disney, the Palpatine-returns-with-better-and-more-weapons-than-before plot comes from Dark Horse comics. At least we didn't have Stackpole writing the scripts, JJ Abrams alone was bad enough. No idea what happened to Episode 8 so, Knifes Out and Glass Onion are great films with great plots and writing.

I thought they killed off all the extended universe so they could write their own stories. (What marvelous stories those turned out to be.) But now you're telling me they used one anyway? Good God.

I don't really think I agree.

Fundamentally memories aren't really immutable; I feel like Alien 3 actively made Aliens worse because now it means that the last third of Aliens was kind of pointless. This is canon, and moreover by the time I watched these movies I was a teenager (~2006 or so), and so it was well-entrenched into the canon.

At the time I recall a lot of drama around Fincher taking it on ("mtv music video director takes on alien project"). Also there is the case of how did the egg get on the sulaco, which isn't clear.

I agree with you and others on the disappointment of Alien 3, but I recently listened to the Audible of Gibson's Alien 3 and was underwhelmed, it seemed like a bog-standard actioner.

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