Nintendo sued for “immoral” Mario Kart lootboxes | Hacker News Reader

Nintendo sued for “immoral” Mario Kart lootboxes

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Nintendo's dip into smartphone apps has been disappointing. At the beginning they were doing some interesting stuff, like Miitomo which was a simple social-media-like app where you and your friends basically just answered questions if I recall, I had fun with that for a few months. They released Super Mario Run which wasn't really my thing but it was at least a one-time purchase that got you all the content.

But apparently not even Nintendo can overcome the enshittification of mobile app stores, and we have Mario Kart Tour which is just pay-to-win garbage that uses every dirty trick in the book to get your money. They infamously make you do races with fake online players that look like they've been spending money to make you see what you're "missing out on".

Even worse, Tour has infected Nintendo's actually good Mario Kart offering on Switch, with recent DLC packs including courses from Tour which are the most bland, uninspired, and boring courses in the game cause it's always just generic city streets with some Toads standing around in the audience. Obviously they do it because they already have moderately high-quality models of the maps that they can just drag into the game from Tour, as opposed to recreating something from e.g. Mario Kart 64 or Super Mario Kart (SNES) to bring it up to modern standards. Or making something new entirely.

While I agree that their monetisation strategies are garbage, I think the Tour maps ported to Switch are quite good and novel. I prefer them to the rehashed SNES maps.

I find them really badly telegraphed on where you need to turn. They have these transparent walls with arrows that are kind of non-obvious, and sometimes you have to turn at the wall itself, and sometimes the wall is further back from where the road ends and you need to actually turn. I've never had this issue with any other tracks in the game except for the Tour ones, but I'll constantly be driving along and just run into a wall because I didn't know I was supposed to turn.

It's even worse if you're playing split-screen multiplayer with 3 or 4 people and your screen is 1/4 of the TV that's on the other side of the room. It's probably not an issue in Tour where you've got a high-res screen right up close to your face, but it doesn't work on a home console.

Agreed. The tour tracks are awful on 200cc. Even when you're not confused about what direction you're supposed to be going, it's constant smashing into walls. You can feel how the tracks were not designed around how the karts are tuned in Mario Kart 8.

Moreover, the scale is all out of wack. The tour tracks make you feel like you've shrunk.

The contrast with the new levels included in the packs is very strong.

The looks don’t fit in with the rest of the game, at least the SNES tracks actually look really good because they completely remodelled them and kept just the layout of the original

Yeah remaking a SNES track would actually be more work than grabbing a map from Tour and doing a few tweaks to make it work in MK8. The SNES maps are actually interesting courses, like Donut Plains has an underwater bit, and the SNES Rainbow Road has thwomps that send shockwaves through the road. They're essentially brand new original courses aside from concept and general layout.

>I prefer them to the rehashed SNES maps.

Anything more reliable than Nintendo resorting to laziness and calling upon nostalgia?

The rehashed SNES maps are entirely new, they just have the same overhead layout as the SNES tracks. Saying they rely on nostalgia—yeah, that's true. Saying that it's laziness? No, it's no simpler than making a new track from scratch. Probably harder, given they have to make it work with the existing layout, despite the pace and physics being so different.

>No, it's no simpler than making a new track from scratch.

I wouldn't say it's all bad on the Tour front, the recent city tracks ported from there to 8 Deluxe are much better now (like Amsterdam, Bangkok and Singapore), and the original tracks made for Tour have been excellent additions for the most part (Ninja Hideaway, Merry Mountain, Yoshi's Island, the not yet in 8 Piranha Plant Cove, etc).

But it's definitely disappointing to see their designs for mobile games be like all the competition sleaziness wise, with their last remaining mobile games being the worst in that regard. Hopefully they'll leave that market soon enough, especially given talk that they didn't find it worth competing in anymore now that the Switch is a huge success.

Really shows how ill the "App Store" model is when a company like Nintendo who has an entire hardware empire off selling high quality non-exploitative games can't make money on it without resorting to gambling industry tactics like the other low quality apps/games on there.

Sad that I had hoped some exec at Nintendo would veto this approach as "Not Nintendo" rather than choosing to tarnish the brand and take the money, like Apple did.

Which Apple thing are you referring to?

But yeah, the (monetization) design of Nintendo’s mobile games is quite disappointing.

Perhaps Apple's moves to the cloud and making more services? Or even allowing loot boxes in apps on its store.

I am highly critical of Apple's heavy handed "approval" requirements for apps coupled with not allowing users to sideload, but if they're going to do it anyway ostensibly for protecting the user, the least they could do it is block the clearly exploitative loot-box approach.

>Which Apple thing are you referring to?

The App Store and exploitative the models it's design perpetuates.

Apple is in for 30% of the take from every single gambling and gacha games, and the take is MASSIVE. They have very strong "incentives" to not have a problem with giving kids gambling games.

> Sad that I had hoped some exec at Nintendo would veto this approach as "Not Nintendo"

I'm guessing it happened to a point. King with their Candy Crush saga had higher revenue and profits than Blizzard [1] for a while now. The amount of money mobile gaming pulls is insane. It's hard to leave that on the table.

Luckily this didn't spread beyond their mobile apps, unlike other game developers that push to replicate the model on desktop and consoles.

[1] https://www.tweaktown.com/news/84423/king-has-made-more-mone...

Does the switch even have the capability to support a mictrotransaction focused shell game? The store is incredibly slow and obtuse, where these things rely a lot on smooth, fast transactions to get it over with before people can think too hard.

Their DLC flows aren't that different from something like Sony's.

Store looks like a webpage that gets opened in Switch's browser.

They do have a concept of filling up your store credit and then spending it on purchases, so the future microtransaction flow could just grab a few credits that you already have on your account.

Let's hope that never happens.

Candy Crush isn't even top 5 in revenue [0]. Genshin isn't top 10. How can you look at money like that and ever think of going back to the flat fee price model as an executive?

That said, I've wondered why game companies haven't transitioned back to a socialized model where high profit games are used to subsidize the high-intellect games. I'm talking something like 2014 Blizzard where Hearthstone dwarfed the money every other IP was making but which still attracted a higher-end audience with SC2 and WoW.

[0]https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-genshin-impact-amon...

As a public company, why not just use the money to boost stock value or sell it. Subsidising games is losing money after all.

This is a fascinating conclusion. Are there other business models for App Store-like ecosystems that are less broken?

Is it that fascinating? Apple makes 70% of App Store revenue from games. These aren't $2, $10, or $60 games on iOS - they're casino simulators for children. This is pretty apparent, and is one of their biggest criticism

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/apple-vs-epic-70percent-of-a...

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/05/05/apple-arcade-ne...

That a century old company with decades of tradition in gaming is not able to eke out a workable business model on Apple's App Store that is not exploitative is indeed fascinating to me. It should be a damning conclusion to the current business model.

I am familiar with the Epic debacle. And while I find the Apple Arcade business model a much better one, I am not sure if it works at the scale of an entire app store. We'll have to see if SetApp ever takes off (same business model, but for apps).

> Sad that I had hoped some exec at Nintendo would veto this approach as "Not Nintendo" rather than choosing to tarnish the brand and take the money, like Apple did.

They did, originally. They released a $10, no microtransactions Mario game (Super Mario Run) in 2016. The general consensus is that the game did not live up to Nintendo's commercial expectations[1], and I think that's true. Nintendo entirely switched to the more standard App Store game model for its later mobile titles, and they print money.

As for "tarnishing the brand," Nintendo still hasn't really put a "full title" on mobile, with the maybe possible exception of Mario Kart. It feels like they are still keeping their distance, but who knows what would have happened if the Switch sales were more like the Wii U than the Wii.

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[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Run#Commercial

There's a huge spectrum of pricing possibilities between $10 flat for a generic run game (in 2016!) and lootboxes

They could have released DLCs that added more levels for increasing somewhat recurring revenue. I would have gladly jumped at that.

Super mario run is very good (teaches you the mechanics well, has ramping difficulty, keeps things fresh with challenges, etc) and well themed, it's hardy a "generic run game".

Don't know about anyone else, but the reason I never bought Super Mario Run was because it required a constant internet connection, AND you had to create an account with Nintendo. (At the time, I had an iPod Touch rather than a phone with a cell connection, and usually kept Wi-Fi turned off to save battery, so I only played games that could run offline. So my situation was probably not common, but Nintendo's choices here still feel a bit invasive.)

Yep, and it refused to run if your phone was rooted. A game refusing to run. And of course with no internet connection it wouldn't work so you couldn't play while you were camping even though the entire gameplay was offline. And the moment a new version was released you had to download/install it otherhwise the game would refuse to run, even if you were on wifi 5 minutes earlier and now on mobile data which is super expensive.

They let their extreme love for DRM and proprietariness completely overwhelm the user experience. But instead of asking themselves if that's why it didn't sell well, they of course conclude that they weren't making money because they weren't being scummy enough.

I bought Mario Run and even with the absurd restrictions I enjoyed it and probably would have bought more of their games if they'd continued. Quite the disapointment.

Yes, I think Nintendo believed they really needed to compete in the mobile space but also didn't want to cannibalize game purchases on their console platforms. Software is their profit center but exclusivity to their hardware gives them much greater control. It also let's them act as a toll collector for anyone else who wants to publish on their platform.

None of this is new information, but a precursor to this point: Nintendo, strategically, couldn't afford (or at least wasn't willing to risk) to develop mobile content on par with the quality of their proprietary hw platforms. Super Mario Run had to be a sub-par experience compared to what was obtainable on their own platform to avoid this risk. Yet they still released a sub-par experience at what, for mobile, was a high premium price of $10. It was doomed to fail from the outset.

They might have maximized the popularity of Mario Run by coming out with a $2-$3 price tag and marketing campaign that essentially gave the message of "Hey this is just a fun little thing we made, hope you enjoy" but that price tag would risk anchoring consumer expectations of the cost of actual premium Nintendo content to a lower benchmark: "Why is Nintendo charging me $40 for New Super Mario Bros. 2 when a similar game (in visual aesthetics only, but still) only costs $3? Ripoff!"

Or at least that might have been their fear at the time. Mario Run appear a in the year prior to the Switch and after the mediocre reception of the Wii U.

The confusing thing to me is that, even after the Switch's success demonstrated the mobile App Store platforms didn't need to be an existential threat, they still went ahead with a freemium lootbox game, or really any freemium game. It's like their still fighting the previous war. Now the emerging mobile war surrounds gaming services that can provide a full console or PC experience on just about any mobile device. I'll lump the Steam Deck in there as part of that war since Steam has demonstrated that really avid gamers are willing to pay to 1) have access to their existing deep library of games and 2) not have to deal with the downsides of streaming. A more casual gamer can get a decent experience streaming w/ Game Pass for $15/month on their phone and/or tablet, a more dedicated gamer might still do that for convenience but can also go for the Deck (or potential competitors) at a price near that of traditional consoles, etc.

There's lots of dust still in the air here that has yet to settle, but Nintendo has yet to show their strategy for this next era of gaming while their current hardware is aging and their gaming service is not only restricted to that hardware but also limited mostly to older games from previous gen consoles.

It's not directly Nintendo, but Pokemon Go is adjacent and is still an absolute cash cow loaded with mobile cancer. Pushing back against that kind of moneymaking potential is quixotic in any corporation.

People have no idea how strong Nintendo Marketing(aka brainwashing) is. Pokemon is such a solid brand because we used to watch a 30 minute commercial every Saturday for it.

At what point is Nintendo's ability to manipulate us with their corporate mascots/IP a type of mental illness or cause for public concern?

> Really shows how ill the "App Store" model is when a company like Nintendo who has an entire hardware empire off selling high quality non-exploitative games can't make money on it without resorting to gambling industry tactics like the other low quality apps/games on there.

Or they're just greedy. They make tons of money running their own walled gardens.

South Park covered the addictiveness of microtransactions aimed at kids in 2014: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium_Isn%27t_Free

The scene in which Satan explains brain chemistry to Stan is well worth watching: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B29YStCYorY

To watch the whole episode for free (might not be available in all regions): https://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/jy5lbq/south-park-...

Even if the explanation about dopamine receptors is a bit oversimplified, the general insights here were really impressive for 2014. This episode is the first time I had ever been introduced to the concept of "whales" in the context of microtransactions.

I bet it has aged fairly well.

I don't like that Nintendo does this. I don't care who does it, it's wrong.

That said, of all the people doing this, it seems to me Nintendo is among the worst targets to go after. They were, to my eye, dragged into this almost against their will, and if anything they've been backing off from it. It certainly hasn't wormed its way in to their mainline games the way it is well into worming its way in to almost every other major publisher out there's games.

Again, I don't say this to defend them. It's wrong for everyone. What I am saying though is that this is not a very target rich environment, and there are target-rich environments elsewhere. There are companies that seem to be entirely based not only on exploitative mechanics, but exploitative mechanics specifically targeted at children, like Roblox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXlauRB1EQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTMF6xEiAaY, the People Make Games investigations into them, for instance.

Although there is an interesting strategy for Nintendo to pursue here where they get sued, and then basically deliberately construct a precedent-setting loss to knee-cap their competition on this front. There's a lot of competition for Nintendo out there surviving on the basis of these cheap drug hits of monetary injection whose ability to develop good games on their own merits are clearly well into the process of atrophy, and Nintendo would probably stand to benefit even if they have to pay some millions of dollars in settlement payouts to impose those restrictions on them. If those mechanics were, for the sake of argument, banned, I think Nintendo would be a big winner in that scenario. Consumers too, for that matter.

Unless the kid also plays Roblox and has been a victim of their behavior he can't exactly sue the company behind it though, can he? Whereas if he actually has played the mobile version of Mario Kart he can.

The kid is not important. He is a convenient foil for the lawyers. This is not a bad thing necessarily; of such things are class action lawsuits made. But they can just as easily find someone hurt by Roblox. It wouldn't hardly take them a day.

Fair point. I'm not familiar with US litigation practices so the idea of lawyers looking for victims to represent in these kinds of cases was not something I considered.

they will even run ads to find them

The difficulty with Roblox is that they merely act as a platform. Plenty of their games have some variety of lootbox, but they are created and published on the Roblox platform by 3rd parties with more shallow pockets. Roblox benefits from that game mechanic, but isn't its originator. I'm not saying the exculpates them at all, but it makes the court battle a lot more difficult.

If you watch the videos GP linked you'll see that it's not lootbox mechanics Roblox is being accused of. It's basically monetizing child labor.

What do you mean "dragged into this against their will"? Who was forcing Nintendo to add lootboxes to their mobile game, or adopt shitty dark patterns to coerce children into buying them?

It's generally not worthwhile to try to get meaningful answers from someone who drank the Nintendo flavor-aid. Nintendo is a company that willingly chose to produce and monetize their software in this way. Nobody made them do anything. They wanted this, chose this, and brought this sort of thing to market.

They also took your ability to buy their games away (ownership such as it was) and forced you to buy a subscription to their Switch Online program just to own games you've probably already purchased at least once. Anyone that defends their approach is delusional at best.

That doesn't mean it's not worth asking these questions, the answers tend to be entertaining.

As I said in another comment, the industry deliberately or otherwise basically polluted the mobile gaming space and made it effectively impossible to sell a conventional $20-60 one-and-done game. There's a few, but you can nearly list them on your fingers and I'm sure you can list the successful ones on one hand easily.

I'd actually love to peer into the alternate universe where the Apple app store tried harder to establish that applications aren't universally disposable cups-of-coffee price level apps. Would the mobile game space still be the cesspool it is in our universe? There are certainly some forces pulling it towards cheap diversions and the resulting methods of extracting money, but might they have a robust non-cesspool gaming community?

When phones first came out everyone was sure having a console in your pocket was going to destroy the rest of the gaming industry. While I've always thought the opinion underestimated the pains of having a touchscreen-only interface, I also blame the monetization techniques. I don't even look to cell phones for games anymore because I don't have the energy to pour over the details of how they want to hook up gambling mechanics to my credit card to see if I'm interested. I hope the mobile gaming industry enjoys being beholden to their whales because I bailed out years and years ago.

Nintendo dipped in, and probably they shouldn't have, but to my eye they haven't particularly enjoyed it either and are getting out it. It would be better if they had never done it at all, but considering everyone else in the industry has simply jumped into the pool with gusto, they at least seem to be course correcting.

And if that constitutes "drinking the Nintendo flavor-aid" to you, well, screw you too.

Their attempts to break into the mobile industry without using these patterns and basically getting their ass handed to them.

The industry, deliberately or otherwise (I honestly don't know), polluted the mobile gaming space and its expectations in a way that made it virtually impossible to sell a conventional $20 game.

Indeed if you Google for articles from around a decade ago, Nintendo after it's failed Wii U was especially feeling the heat from the ascendent mobile games industry. Dedicated handhelds game consoles were a dying industry. It was in such an environment that it looked to expand into mobile games, which it stopped further expanding after the success of Switch especially during covid.

Nintendo was not forced to do anything, they chose to do it because it would make a lot of money. The pressure of shareholders is not an excuse to do something potentially illegal.

So why does Nintendo carry extra scrutiny? Well... For one thing, Nintendo has a market cap of around $50 billion USD, which is absurd. The Roblox corporation is already a behemoth at nearly half that. Do they receive scrutiny? Well, yeah. Maybe not as much as deserved, possibly because despite it's prominence a lot of people just don't know what the hell Roblox even is, versus Nintendo which is the closest thing there is to a video game equivalent of Disney. Nonetheless, Roblox is still in the media and in lawsuits all the time.

It's also definitely a strategic choice for people to rally behind a fight with higher stakes, and slapping Nintendo with a lawsuit could have the potential to send a much stronger message than a lawsuit against other prominent game developers like Ubisoft or EA would have.

It's definitely not "fair", per se, if we're trying to rank companies based on how much they've done badly by their customers and the public. However, Nintendo, as beloved as they may be, are absolutely no stranger to engaging in shitty, anti-consumer behavior, so I have a hard time feeling especially much sympathy for them here.

I find it hard why chance-based lootboxes are not banned for kids' games. They are basically normalizing gambling at a very young age, with all of the negative potential that that brings.

This might be the only thing that US Sen. Josh Hawley from Missouri and I agree on, given his sponsorship of S.1629: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/162...

> They are basically normalizing gambling at a very young age

I feel the same way, and it's why I won't allow my kids to play any games that include loot boxes. I never play such games myself either.

I'm hoping that the EU legislates against this, which in turn I hope causes others to follow suit.

I completely agree, and it is also why I don't play Collectable Card Games. Not only does it normalize gambling, but it's outright wasteful.

On the bright side, maybe these gambling things will 'get old'.

I know as an adult, I never got sucked into farmvile, modern call of duty/FPS, or a serious MMO. I played these as a child/teen, I already knew how they worked, nothing interesting. Now the only things that get me going are novel games like Minecraft/Papers Please/etc...

I really hate gambling and I'd love for adults to be bored of it. However I think I know better. Gambling/addictive exploitation might be bad enough to call upon government, however I doubt they will be competent enough to actually remove it.

The fact that they only really pull in people susceptible to gambling addiction makes it worse, not better. If the games were actually fun, but some people just couldn't help but put a thousand dollars into it, maybe it would be harder to justify ending it.

But making a game fun is actually not useful for taking advantage of gambling addicts. They don't get their fix from the game being fun, but rather from having something "at stake". In fact, the things you want to do to better target that dopamine rush tend to make the system a worse "game", as rewards get skewed, incentives get hijacked, and everything else gets a cost associated with it.

They're only purpose is to "mine" the addicts as if they were an oil well.

For anyone interested in understanding more about the context behind this, I recommend checking out this presentation [0] and HN discussion [1] from a little while back.

[0] https://growth.design/case-studies/mario-kart-revenue-model

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35058744

I did not know much about this game, but any of those dark patterns should be enough to get them sued.

If nothing is done, lootboxes will become larger than traditional gambling due to the size of the video game market, if it is not already [0]. Taking on Nintendo is the best way to strike the belly of the beast and will set a better precedent than targeting adult-centric games (which are actually played by teens).

[0] US gambling ~$100B, video games ~$60B. But in Vegas the house takes 0.5%-10%, and in loot boxes the house takes 100%

It's not really gambling at all though is it, since as you say 'the house takes 100%' - there's no expectation of (any chance of) profiting from it. It's dumb yes, but it is just paid entertainment; we don't say paying Netflix is gambling ('some months we don't even find something we want to watch!') for example.

It's not technically gambling, but it's every bit as insidious and preys on the exact same elements of human nature, except we allow it to happen to children.

I mean, many lootboxes contain things that can be resold for profit... It's just that game devs don't have to "pay out" the winnings, more consumers do. CS skins are the most obvious.

Gacha is definitely gambling even if profit isn't the primary motive. You could argue that profit isn't even the primary motivation of many poker players, but rather being seen as smarter than the next guy or more able to call bullshit.

It’s not even close to Netflix . You paid a 5$ monthly FIXED fee and can watch everything.

Loot boxes on Netflix would be, you have no movies when you start:

You pay 2$ to add Random 3 movies to your library. Wanna watch Breaking Bad? Pay 2$ until you get “lucky” (and maybe get only Season 3).

Ah, and maybe because it’s premium show, there is only 0.5% chance of getting it in every “loot box”.

So you might spend thousands of dollars, and not get what you want… Because usually there is not even a way to spend 10$ to buy it like a movie on Aplle/Amazon, you have to gamble!

Does every business model eventually fall into vile recurring payments? Are business that sell a nice thing that you can pay a fair price for once so unattractive to investors now that beloved brands are willing to throw away their reputation nickel and diming customers?

There's a reason it's called a "race to the bottom".

Look at the amount of money made with schemes like this vs. any other gaming business model that has been tried and the answer becomes clear. Even monthly subscriptions (for-pay MMOs) can't complete.

I hope they (Nintendo) lose big time on this, it was quite disappointment to see Nintendo approve this IMHO highly children hostile design.

Well… that’s going to further hit the profitability of Nintendo’s mobile games division.

That division already has pretty mediocre-by-comparison returns. They are quite good for a mobile game, but a drop in the bucket compared to Switch products and not worth the time to focus on.

Rumor has it that Nintendo is probably going to shut down that division and their mobile games soon. They are already adding the MK Tour tracks into MK 8 as part of the Booster Course Pass.

It's already heavily against Nintendo's DNA to produce for platforms that aren't their own[1]. They are very much like Apple in that respect. Given that the mobile thing would have had to be tremendously beneficial to avoid the knife.

So you are very right, this is probably the end for Nintendo's mobile gaming efforts.

[1]: The book "Super Mario: How Nintendo Conquered America" by Jeff Ryan was incredibly fascinating if you're interested in the history and "inside story" of Nintendo in their early days. Can't recommend enough. Narrated by the great Ray Porter, and DRM free on Downpour: https://www.downpour.com/super-mario?sp=19981

>Yes, but: A similar lawsuit filed early last year against Take Two Interactive over microtransactions was sent to arbitration last October in a partial win for the game-maker.

Honest question: what am I to make of the fact that binding arbitration is a for-profit business, and that the accused are their clients?

As someone who once worked in mobile games for a decade, I hate mobile games. I was naive to think I could change anything.

Been there, done that...

It's such a shame, as the early years of mobile gaming were a lot of fun, but the market decided it'd rather have ad-ridden near-gambling exploitative F2P so long as it was labelled as 'FREE', rather than pay $1-5 or so for a small-but-complete game :(

And all the games from the early years of the iPhone are gone. You can't keep a game on the App Store any more without basically committing yourself to updating it indefinitely.

When loot boxes came to Overwatch (the old one), I thought "hm what a great idea, it helps monetise the game, while offering just un-important cosmetics", it did not affect gameplay, you did win them through actual gameplay too (and it was not that hard to win them, just play the game). The good old days of Overwatch 1.

Now they killed the game with the battle pass stuff and I just refuse to take part in that. Bring back loot boxes!

Seems like a sad reflection of our society today. More and more it's about shortcuts, easy money, and just buy what you want instead of working for anything. There's little pride in earning or creating something, and it's just used as a status symbol to 1-up. And of course others a ready to take advantage of this by creating systems that promote this pay to win lazy attitude.

The moment Zelda does online multiplayer or does any kind of microtransactions I'm out.

What if the online multiplayer is fun?

Yeah there's a multiplayer Breath of the Wild mod which looks really fun. Of course Nintendo threatened legal action to its creators and streamers

Either they hold their ground and boycott playing the game or they don't. If something being fun is enough to tempt you to compromise your moral beliefs then you have a problem.

> If something being fun is enough to tempt you to compromise your moral beliefs then you have a problem.

My take might be naive, but isn’t pleasure in general — fun in this specific case — the chief reason that people compromise their moral beliefs?

Though I don’t particularly understand the moral judgment about online multiplayer. But I am sympathetic to judgments about “always-online” single player functionality.

I don’t think it’s a compromise of your moral beliefs to play a fun multiplayer game

Or at least it ought not to be

If it's fun, that's great. Adding multiplayer elements to otherwise single-player games or franchises usually just shits them up, though.

We're all lucky that Nintendo is so technologically inept that they're perpetually 20 years behind the latest trends. Imagine what a shitshow Tears Of The Kingdom would be if it had Genshin-style gacha bullshit.

I mean it literally does have in-game vending machines that spit out little pods with items in them! But you pay with items you collect in the game. And it's not like a collecting thing, the items are just portable fans and platforms and wheels and whatnot for building.

... and you don't need any more than you'll just stumble on for free to advance in the game, and if you're a seasoned RPG-item-hoarder you'll beat the game never having used any of them, anyway, "just in case you need them later".

Yeah I've usually just been using each one I stumble upon once to see if there's anything new in it I don't have

I think I used a fan once to blow some sand, and a mirror to reflect sunlight for a puzzle in the overworld where they had mirror pods in a chest nearby!

Oh shit. I had stopped really paying attention to those pick-ups (I think I've used... maybe two? In more than 20 hours?) but now that you mention it, I think one I got was a mirror—I totally could have used a mirror to turn a 15-minute puzzle I did a couple days ago, into a 1-minute puzzle.

I wonder if affection for capsule machines is a Nintendo thing? Yoshi's Wooly World has capsule machines, and they're even less like real capsules machines—every machine has a 10 capsules, that's it, and they don't restock. Some of the things you get are labelled "common" and some "rare" and some "super rare", but ... the chance of each capsule is exactly the same. And if you buy 10, then you get all 10.

As far as I know, vending machines are just a big thing in Japanese culture in general. It's where the term gacha comes from, after all.

> We're all lucky that Nintendo is so technologically inept that they're perpetually 20 years behind the latest trends.

LOL. Yes that's true. At first I found it frustrating, now I find it as the key to their appeal. Maybe even kinda charming.

But yeah, by not chasing or trying to keep up with everyone they're kinda free to do their thing even on majorly old hardware.

At the end of the day, even though I own a PS5, 5 years from now I'll still remember how much fun I had with TOTK. I barely touch my PS5 as is. Waiting for Spider-man 2 and GTA 6 (who knows if that will even come out during the PS5 lifecycle).

But yeah, in my estimation, more Switch games are aging incredibly well. But that's just me and I care little about next graphics especially if the the game isn't fun or the gameplay isn't fun.

Nintendo does multiplayer without microtransactions (see Splatoon). It seems they don't care about mobile market and just license they franchises to whoever can make the most money.

Why does 1 game every 4 years keep you attached to Zelda?

Maybe its my gigantic backlog of games, but I don't bother with Nintendo anymore. My bro or a friend will let me borrow their Nintendo system + Zelda for a few weeks. (its not like people really use their Switch...)

Good. I even wrote to Nintendo expressing my displeasure about this when I first heard they were doing it. Glad to see someone's doing something more about it.

From the title, I expected this to be about someone suing over the item boxes in Mario Kart 8, which would have been, um, fun.

you know your game has made it, when it's ruled by a judge to be immorally addicting

I think the 'immorally' makes it the opposite, it taints the success conveyed by 'addicting'.

Like taking the world by storm with an e-cigarette product containing vs containing nicotine.

i was thinking more like sinfully chocolatey

Nah, the second program I ever made, age 17, was a text based rpg that was incredibly addicting.

In <200 lines of python code, I made an addictive game. Random enemies of various difficulty, including one that was ultra hard, so you had a reason to keep playing for hours as you leveled up.

My buddy got so hooked to it, he wouldn't move onto our next activity, lucky for me, whatever I did with my input() was bad and he caused it to error out at some point.

Addicting games arent hard, fun games are hard.

If your video game dispenses heroin every time you get a kill, is it really the game that is good?

These aren't good games that people are getting addicted to. The gambling addiction thing is a brain defect essentially.

Nintendo shut this loot box thing down around a year ago. So… you know, get over it. It’s already been dead a long time. No, Nintendo is not sprinting along the dark path.

I’m amused that the plaintiff is complaining over $170. A tiny sum for a whale in the scheme of things.

They're working on a class action lawsuit. They just need a few specific people to represent the class.

Sure. It’s still small.

Doesn't matter how small the scam is if it's still a scam.

Nintendo still has one game on the app store (which I'll deliberately avoid naming so as not to give it free advertising) that's even worse than the Mario Kart when it comes to predatory gambling monetization. Their hands aren't clean.

"Nintendo shut this loot box thing down around a year ago"

Not true. A couple months ago, I played MKT for a while. The loot box is alive and well.

I’m curious of anyone can validate that? This article and others appear to claim it is gone.

Its incredible to see someone so strongly supporting Nintendo.

>Company did bad thing

"Oh but they stopped doing the bad thing, no big deal"

idk man, stopping doing a thing that is immensely profitable shows integrity if you ask me.

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