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Comment by dottjt | Hacker News Reader

Personally, I don't really like the Push platform, having previously owned a Push 2.

I can understand the value of it if you're performing live, however the hard reality is that it's a really inefficient way to create electronic music. The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.

With that said, maybe that's for you. But if you're trying to make advanced productions as quickly as possible, then I really see no value in the Push. You could of course use it as a MIDI controller, but it's a damn expensive one if your sole purpose is to use it as a MIDI controller.

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A keyboard and a mouse might be faster in some instances, but they are also far less musically expressive. When it comes to putting emotion into music, I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.

In terms of speed, I'm also not sure how quickly you can create articulations like vibrato and slides with a mouse and keyboard, but that seems like it would be fairly tedious to do manually? Wouldn't that require a lot of envelope tweaking?

Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.

Most instruments have parameters for things like vibrato that you can set quickly by "drawing" them with a mouse under the note in reaper (and probably other daws). Slide isn't really a normal thing with midi, you'd need the instrument plugin to explicitly support it using some sort of parameter, but if one was present it'd be easy to set via the mouse.

I mean... You can do that, but I don't think you're going to enjoy the process compared with playing a physical instrument.

When it comes to putting emotion into music, I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.

This is exactly my experience. I started with mouse/keyboard only fiddling with electronic music (no music background whatsoever) and the day I bought a basic MIDI controller I ended up playing it until it was time to go to work the next morning.. It was such an overwhelming experience, not just the keys themselves but also the buttons and the trackpad. Finally I could just do all these tiny variations which make groove on the spot, immediately, in infinite variations, instead of going back and forth dragging things with a mouse in only one dimension.

> Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.

This is the most important thing you said IMO. Maybe keyboard shortcuts and ninja mouse skills can get you into a flow state, "improvisation" mode, but chances are your composer brain will be in the lead.

That's not the point of the parent comment. For the expressive feel of a "real instrument", just a MIDI controller would do. The Push's are a lot more than just a MIDI controller, though. As a Push 2 owner, I use the other features way too little for them to be worth it to me, and I wouldn't buy it again. As a MIDI controller, it's my go-to. Mostly because I don't have much else than that and some old synths.

I disagree with this sentiment, but I also think it comes down to how you approach music.

For me at least, music originates from my imagination. It starts in my head, not from playing an instrument, so to speak. I say this as a composer, not as a musician.

Sure, if you really mastered an instrument i.e. Push 3, then you could use it as a form of expression. But when you're composing, often you're trying to tame many different instruments and ideas at once, so I find it much easier to do it all in my head first, and then think of the quickest way to translate it all into the computer, and for me that's the mouse and keyboard.

I'm also primarily a song writer/producer, so for me I think in terms of composition after the fact i.e. once the lyrics have been written. But yeah, I certainly do appreciate those who can utilise platforms like the Push 3. However I would still argue that even if it is what works for you, it's still ultimately slower. Again, nothing wrong with that if it works for you.

> I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.

Completely agree. I currently run 5 MIDI controllers with Ableton: 3 Launchpads (one for launching clips, and the other two for controlling step sequencers), a Launch Control for knobs, and a basic 61-key MIDI keyboard.

I used to do it all with a mouse, but when I added that first Launchpad for punching in sequences by hand, I felt so much more creative.

Clearly, I still use the mouse for lots of things. And, doing everything by way of a controller (like the Push) is not really desirable to me. But creating patterns, playing chords/melodies on the keys, and tweaking synth params with hardware pots by hand just feels better. Like you, I don't have to think about what I'm doing. I just do it. Clicking in notes on piano roll really can't compete. imo.

If you aren’t great at piano then using a push in note scale mode is fantastic. Another benefit is when recording automation you can turn the knobs to add a human element over something like point and clicking points. It’s an excellent tool for creating music, not just for live.

> The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.

It's really up to personal preference and what you are most trained with. I'm sure I could make a full song faster than at least 50% of Ableton users on a Analog Rytm and/or the Octatrack, as I could probably do that workflow in my sleep. But I'm also use that 99% of Ableton users could use Ableton faster than me to create full songs, simply because I'm much more used to using hardware than software.

Just like some people are better with console controllers than keyboard/mouse, even when playing FPS games, it's just a matter of practice (although FPS example has a skill-ceiling I don't think exists in music creation, so slightly shitty example)

This is a reason ableton live is called ... live. It is made to create music with the idea to play it live. The Push is the actual controller for the live performance.

Finger-drumming and using the sequencer in Push is much faster than clicking in MIDI notes for me.

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