Ask HN: What did you do when a employer rejected a raise? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: What did you do when a employer rejected a raise?

I asked my boss for a raise today and he rejected it. It's a bit overdue and I'm paid slightly below market.

I could probably find a new better paid job in a few weeks, but I don't really want to quit, the team is nice, I kinda like this work environment, it's a full remote gig with decent hours.

I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss hand, does that sound like a decent idea?

What do you usually do in this kind of situation?

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FWIW, I always got my best 'raises' by switching jobs. Often times exponentially larger raises than I would have gotten sticking around.

A good company that values you will say yes to a raise. The fact that they say no means either a. they don't value you, or b. they can't afford to pay you fairly. Neither of those things is a good sign...

I'm going to be swimming against the tide here.

> "but I don't really want to quit, the team is nice, I kinda like this work environment, it's a full remote gig with decent hours."

Money is not everything.

I’ll be sure to relay that to my student debt collection agency.

Definitely a trade-off. Until you're out of debt and somewhat financially secure, going for money may be a good strategy.

Alternately you can go for pay-as-you-earn, possibly excepting a lifelong indenture.

The OP mentioned "slightly below market"; not "woefully below market" or "having trouble paying my debts". Based on their (short) post they don't seem to be in any financial troubles.

Do you work 2 jobs to maximize your income or do you have nights and weekends off? If not, how do you explain that trade off to your student debt collection agency?

>I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss hand

This is absolutely what you should be doing.

I would apply to jobs that I would be happy to get in case my boss decides to decline the raise anyway.

Never, ever do something you have no intention of carrying through on. Your lack of enthusiasm will probably bleed through and using other people for personal gain isn’t the nicest way to be known. People talk, and it would suck blowing an interview and losing a job because of such talk.

Small counter-opinion here; if I interview a candidate, offer them a role, and find out that they have been using our time only to get a better deal from their current employer, then I will most likely choose not to interview them again in the future.

If you have engaged with me in bad faith (pretending to want a job with us when you actually don't) then I would be very uncomfortable endorsing you to join one of my teams in the future.

By all means, interview around. And if you get a better offer and accept it, then I will cheerfully congratulate you and wish you the very best of luck! But if you're operating in an area where the pool of potential employers is small, make sure you don't burn too many relationships in the process.

This is a bit unethical, but the candidate in question could just say that their current employer gave them a newer, better offer that they couldn't refuse, essentially giving plausible deniability. Though I do agree that the interviewer would be fully in their right to not re-interview the candidate.

And how would you find this out? People do get counter offers, some even accept them. It's part of the game. No need to be petty.

In one case, the same person did the same thing to us twice in a row - interviewed, got an offer, then got "counter offered" from their existing company the next day. Pretty confident that they're just interviewing as a negotiating tactic.

But honestly, in general, if someone interviews around then decides to stay at their existing company for more money, they're probably not the folks I'd be likely to hire regardless. They're not looking for new learning opportunities, or new ways to grow, they're maximizing for some other value structure. And best of luck to them with that, I'm sure they'll find plenty of companies where those values are the expectation and norm.

You're "playing the game", but I build teams out of folks who aren't game players. :)

The key question that doesn't seem to be answered in your post is: Do you have any sort of leverage? How replaceable/critical are you? That's going to determine whether there's anything you can do to get a raise. If the company is looking to save money and you're not critical, they're going to tell you to take that new job if you come with an offer letter in hand!

Maybe ask for something other than a raise, more holiday days, lower regular expected weekly hours. Argue with your experience and look for something he can make happen, if they cant support a higher wage. If overtime hours are not yet being paid out or used up as holidays ask for this as well... you like the position, you like the team, and you dont really want to change job , thats fine so go for something that is worth it for you outside of more money.

If they are not willing to adjust anything, they dont really value you enough, then you at least know it and can start looking for something else.

Look for another job, but do not present it to your employer.

I think you should always be interviewing. See what you're worth, see what the climate is like, hone your interviewing skills for the next time you *need* to interview, and maybe get a better offer at a more interesting place.

But never ever present any kind of alternate offer to your manager, or let them know you've interviewed. This is equivalent to asking them to beat a counteroffer, and this will almost always end in disaster.

Best case scenario: You get the raise, but the next time there are general raises you will be passed over. After all, you already got your raise.

Middle case scenario: You don't get your raise. If the threat was idle then you stay where you were at the pay you had, but there will be general resentment. You will get to work on less interesting things and your opinion will be less heard. You will be sidelined in your role because you were even considering looking outside the company. Eventually you'll want to leave anyway.

Worst case scenario: Your company will match or even beat the offer. They will spend the next couple months pairing you with other engineers who will quietly learn what you're doing, and then once the other position has been rejected and filled you will get laid off. Or fired for cause. It isn't hard to engineer enough to argue that, and even if you're fired without cause unemployment doesn't go very far.

If your company needs to spend months costing the salary of an employee making 15% less to save that 15% that is something unheard of. You might be looked at as someone who will jump ship.

What is interesting work changes from person to person. No one is going to take away your interesting work.

It's not about saving that 15%. You've already demonstrated the will to leave the company. If they don't train someone up on your responsibilities then they're likely to left holding the bag. Add in a touch of spite and there you go.

And I agree about interesting work, but al of people work in an environment where they don't get to directly choose what you work on. And it's easy to stick someone on bug triage or perpetual on-call during office hours to sap their will to stay.

Time to start talking to other companies offering better pay. Negotiating from a position of options is a far better position. Once a company has decided you aren't worth having any more its over and time to move on anyway.

There's a point in your career where you have to decide do I want another $5000 a year or is it worth that $5000 to not have to drive into work and to work with people I like.

I've been working remotely for over 20 years and WFH was not really a thing until very recently, that small benefit has kept me at the same company for probably a few years too long. I valued the ability to work from home at about $15,000 so even a perfect job that required me to come into the office every day needed to offer me $20,000 more than I'm making even to be considered. What things do you value about your current job that's not monetary and then put a monetary value -do you love your co-workers, would $5000 make you love them less? Do you enjoy the work, would $10,000 allow you to enjoy something else?

The issue of course is you are trading the known for the unknown, will you love the next job as much as your current job and are you willing to gamble, will $15,000 make that gamble easier? Everyone has a number what's yours?

As a former manager at a big corporate, I just wanted to point out that the budget available to managers to make counteroffers is often very different to the budget available for ad hoc or periodic raises based on performance. This is especially true if you are willing and able to show the offer letter to prove it's real.

I've leveraged an offer to get my compensation increased several times, without having to actually leave, and it did nothing to harm my standing with my employer. If anything, my immediate management respected me more for "playing the system" to my advantage.

Finally do make sure you question any "wisdom" that taking the counteroffer is a bad idea is coming from. It is often repeated by recruiters, but clearly this is for self-serving reasons, so beware of that.

> the budget available to managers to make counteroffers is often very different to the budget available for ad hoc or periodic raises based on performance

This seems like a structural flaw if you want to retain good people.

I'm sure, but it wouldn't be the first. Corporate culture is full of structural flaws.

> I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss hand, does that sound like a decent idea?

What happens when your boss says no to matching your new offer? Do you quit? If not and you keep working, do you think your boss will overwork you/push you out afterwards? And then you'll have no job.

Really this situation boils down to how much risk you're willing to accept, how willing you are to leave your current job, and how much you value being paid market rate.

Money is just part of your comp. Would you take market rate salary if it meant an in-office job with un-decent hours and a not-nice team? I hope not!

People on here talk about job hopping constantly to keep increasing salary, but while that may work for them, is it what you want to do?

Can you try something like: Asking your boss what it would take to get the raise you asked for? Are there milestones/a timeline in place? Can you get anything today?

Look for different jobs. It's possible that your expectations are out of line, bigger companies that do a lot of hiring know more about the market than you do, but this is a low probability.

Get out there and interview. You don't know what you'll find. The best bet is that you'll find a higher paying job.

> I asked my boss for a raise today and he rejected it. It's a bit overdue and I'm paid slightly below market.

I'm sorry to hear that.

> I could probably find a new better paid job in a few weeks, but I don't really want to quit, the team is nice, I kinda like this work environment, it's a full remote gig with decent hours.

It sounds like there are real plusses to your current position, yet you are nonplussed. Would you truly be considering interviewing elsewhere if you felt fully satisfied with your current position?

> I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss hand, does that sound like a decent idea?

Generally, one may not force a superior's hand, at least not without real possibility of resentment and political instability. If you're going to the trouble of interviewing, wouldn't it be worthwhile to consider your options?

> What do you usually do in this kind of situation?

If I were in this situation, I would certainly feel under-appreciated at the very least. I would seriously consider my options, and I would not make any decision in haste. Nor would I take too long to decide. Carpe diem.

What would I have to lose by interviewing? Wouldn't having more options to choose from be advantageous, regardless of which option I were to choose? Optionality is valuable.

Frankly, if I were in your position and I were to have an outside offer in hand, I would not volunteer that information to my boss to elicit a counter offer. I would just leave. After all, he already made it known how much -- or how little -- he thinks I'm worth by rejecting my proposed raise in the first place. Even if he were to match the offer, would he really think that I'm worth it? How might it affect me in the long term if I were to stay, with or without the raise?

Best of luck, and I hope things go as well as they can for you.

ChatGPT copy-paste?

Sorry, you’re absolutely right. Let me amend that for you… /s

> I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss hand, does that sound like a decent idea?

This is a really terrible idea. Don't do this. Employers know this trick, and neither your current employer nor the one you're trying to use as leverage will appreciate your doing this.

Don't burn bridges, and do assume these companies talk. Our industry is smaller than many people think.

> What do you usually do in this kind of situation?

I've done a self-evaluation. Is my current job worth working at with my current pay rate? If so, then I stay at my current pay rate. If not, then I start looking for another job -- but I do it seriously, not as a trick to try to coerce my employer.

Nice /s. Regarding "forcing boss hand" you just wrap it in nice words "Hey John! I just got this juicy offer and I don't know what to do! I really love working with you and I prefer to stay here but they gave me the offer that is hard to reject."

Its a question of intent. If I'm going out and getting offers but I'm not really wanting to find another job, I just want the offers to give me leverage in negotiations, that's a bad thing. Even ignoring ethical considerations, in the medium-to-long term it will damage your reputation and reduce your prospects. If nothing else, it's just unprofessional.

If I'm looking for another position for real, and mention it to my employer, that's fine.

> I really love working with you and I prefer to stay here but they gave me the offer that is hard to reject.

I've had people come to me twice with that sort of message. I assumed that they were earnestly looking. For both of them, I told them that they should take the offer. If they were so unhappy working for me that they went to all the trouble to look for another job, and the money alone is enough to sway them, then matching the other offer is not likely to improve their job satisfaction with me. They should go where they're happier.

Well, every case is different. I had same situations but employees were made happy (money and role are still good motivators), some left sooner, some later but they did the job well in the meantime. In one case I said "go for it" because the position was much better (an employee was telling me about every stage of the recrutation from the beginning, I lost great guy but it was indeed better for him). Generally, I agree to be honest, every single time when I was leaving I wasn't negotiating for a counteroffer. But if somebody wants to stay and have better terms, it's a valid strategy.

> I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss hand, does that sound like a decent idea?

Yes. Get the better offer. But you don't have to force their hand and be harsh about it. If you like your current job, don't say "match this or I'll leave" - instead, say "hey, I got this other offer, I really like working here, could you please match it?"

Then if they say no, you can decide whether you want to stay or leave. If instead you said match or I'll leave, then you kinda force yourself into the leaving option.

What info did you give your boss to justify a raise? If you just say "I want a raise" that is unlikely to be effective. But if you give them data, like "x number of new features implemented in the past year", "x long-standing bugs fixed", or "x% of commits passed testing the first time", that's more concrete and something they can both compare against your peers, and give to their boss as a way to open up the money spigot.

Wait 3-6 months and re-evaluate. It sounds like a great environment with a lot of upsides. You don’t want to trade a terrible team for 5% more where you commute in each day. If after 3 months you still want to change jobs, start looking. You might be in a spot of feeling under appreciated today but feel differently soon

As you mostly change jobs every couple of years, I’d say you should be looking for way more than 5%. Unless you are at the top of your pay scale, in which case it’s not worth moving for money, certainly not 5%.

Your boss could be worrying about politics in the company, asking for a raise directly can lead to that, you can find some examples in Ben Horowitz's "The Hard Thing About Hard Things", the part "HOW TO MINIMIZE POLITICS IN YOUR COMPANY".

You just got comfy at this job, it's good enough for you, which why you are finding it hard to justify leaving.

Anyway, no one regrets interviewing. You always learn something new, especially if you've been at this job/position for a while.

You never get the same salary growth by staying in the same company as a programmer.

I'm not sure why exactly (there are many factors including your initial most probably underestimated salary as a reference point etc.), but I never seen it working.

The executives don't either. They're all passing through on their way to bigger and better gigs. If they can get more out of the employees for less money it just makes them look better. They don't care if they burn down the team long term because they'll be somewhere else.

You need to give us more details. What we're your arguments to justify you getting a raise? What were your boss' for denying it?

When companies face inflation they either raise prices or lower costs typically by delivering less or a lower quality product.

How and why did your boss reject the raise? That will determine what you should do next, in my opinion.

Get a new job duh

TLDR:

Start looking for another job if you aren't happy there. If you are happy there or want to stick around for a while, ask your boss what it will take to allow you more opportunity/raises with the company.

OR read the story that is relatable:

When I first started in software development a few years after I graduated college and desperate for work to pay off my student loans, I landed a Visual Basic 6 job repairing bugs and adding new features in autobody shop software. I passed the logic test but failed the math horribly, and yet they still hired me at $10 per hour back in 2012.

I'd only been a self-taught programmer so most of what I learned, while the knowledge was good, I had to relearn some things and after about 3 months of building little software programs and improving, they finally let me work in their main program, though we would run hours and hours of test code before comitting projects, of course.

My boss was a tyrant asshole who had to always be right and prove he was the alpha male whenever the team was present. Any ideas had to be his and me and a few other co-workers learned how to play that game... a Greek man. "Make him think it is his idea to get it passed!" It worked but it took weeks and months to get anything incorporated.

He increased my pay to $12 an hour. At the time, I really thought I should be getting paid around $20-$25/hr for a programmer but being still new and somewhat learning, I accepted. I eventually increased productivity and attracted more and more clients.. I think he went from just a hundred or so clients to acquiring over a thousand. He had competition but he was the dominant autobody shop software in the nation. So I knew my worth was bringing him value and I wanted a raise. His form of a raise was taking me out to lunch once a month. And that was as far as I could get.

So with my college degree and newfound knowledge learning everything I could, and tired of his arrogant behavior, I set out to find another job. I spent about 4 months looking before I finally got a bite. They were happy to hire me at $16/hr for a combination of web design work and Flash. I had to go back and tell my boss I was giving in my 2 weeks notice.

My intentions were never to leave his company. I wanted to get another job offer so I could go back to him and tell them how much I was making so he would give me a raise, but once I had that other job offer... the environment was more enticing than it would be to stay. I wouldn't have to deal with a tyrant miromanaging boss anymore... and so, here I was... wanting to make the most money, but did I want to sell my soul to do it?

He asked me how much they were paying me. I told him I couldn't reveal that information but it was enough to convince me to leave. He offered double my salary so $24/hr. This was what I wanted to be getting paid! It was an amazing offer! But guess what? I didn't want it because I knew it was attached to the stick he'd be dangling before me. I had grown tired of his tyrannical ways of being a boss and knew that money was going to be thrown up in my face if I didn't do my job correctly every time or mistakes were found. If mistakes were found, he might be prone to dock my pay or "make me pay for my wasted time."

Well, I ended up working his job at the pay I wanted for a very short time: the deal was, I would work days at my other job and nights at his company. It only lasted a week because he installed spyware on my computer to see what I was doing. I had put a playlist on YouTube while I was working and he called me into his office one day (before I started the other job), and asked me why I was getting paid $24 an hour to listen to music all night. Not sure if anyone knows this but the browser records every YouTube url while on a playlist. There was no way he could see what I was doing though I did log every thing I was working on but he seemed to ignore the log file that recorded my saves. I was in the Visual Basic 6 application doing my job while YouTube was in the background. When I explained this to him, he seemed awestruck but told me I had a job to do and was getting paid to do it.

I knew this wasn't going to end well and I would be micromanaged to the point where it was no longer worth it. I ended up quitting a few days later for his inability to trust that I was there to do my job, especially that I took it seriously considering I was getting paid that much in all my life. I left and went to work the other job at $16/hr.

At the same time, I ended up getting a third new job with this new job that I worked at the same time: one was from 8 AM to 5 PM ($16/hr), the other was from 6 PM to 2 AM ($18/hr). The morning job ended up laying me off a year and a half later and as of today, I'm making a few bucks more now than what I was originally making at the first job. I could've been making that money years ago, as it did take a few more years to get there, but I eventually ended up getting beyond where I was expecting to be.

The first job made autobody software called https://crash-writer.com which was bought out by a company called Web-Est, which was strictly online and no longer on a Windows computer. They ended up destroying the "Crash-writeR" software. So had I stayed, I would've probably been living in fear of my job constantly, only to be laid off because he ended up selling his software to his competition, which ended up eliminating him in the industry.

All things happen for a reason and I have no regrets. So to that, I say to you, here are several options to consider:

1. Keep doing your job while you are looking for another if you really want to make more money.

2. Go back to your boss and tell him what you have done to be considered for a raise.

3. Go back to your boss and ask him what you can do to make the money that you desire and how many months that would take to achieve.

4. Accept the outcome and do nothing and go to work and be as happy as you can be for as long as you can without feeling you are just giving away your soul for what he values it at. It's your life. It's your time. It's your years. Do with it what you will. Choice is yours.

Today I find myself in a very similar boat to you just the same: I am now working a job that is fully remote but there are no raises or bonuses anymore and this became a "company policy" a year ago. There is not even an option to ask for a raise. Most people are abandoning ship while I still remain. The reason for this is the remote gig allows me to spend time and take care of my family and it allows me to travel. So I do just the same as I always have done: take advantage of the situation where you can wake up in a new city or town every week or month. Or find another job where I have time to do both.

> Start looking for another job if you aren't happy there.

I'd expand on this and say that in the future you should be interviewing for new jobs when you're at your happiest! Don't wait until you're unhappy to find out what else is out there. Like the saying goes, any port in a storm.

How to negotiate with your boss for a raise? - Jordan Peterson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwk1n33HaHY

I would take anything Peterson says with a massive grain of salt.

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