Home schooling can challenge our beliefs about education
prospectmagazine.co.uk
prospectmagazine.co.uk
I was only home schooled, part time, for science and math in 8th grade. I had failed algebra 2 years in a row and really falling behind. I had been to private school, public school, and a charter school.
In one year of home schooling, my dad was able to get me from barely understanding functions to solving systems of equations, and also got me fluent in spreadsheets for data analysis.
He was a Biochemistry undergrad, and he also got me to balancing stoichiometric equations by the end of the year.
From my perspective it was really nice to move at my own pace. If I had trouble understanding something, we could slow down and really focus on things.
As a person who's been homeschooled how does it feel when people make the assertion that the schooling you had must cause socialization problems?
But when you are connected to a couple of families doing it close by and you do manage that the kids can actually learn and play together on a regular base, then there is no problem at all.
You're correct. I misspoke and apologize.
As for socializing, it definitely helps to know a few other home schooling families with kids of a similar age.
Would be funny to see workplaces try to implement some of the weird practices schools do, like shuffling people around into random groups that may have built zero social rapport and have zero idea of each other's skills, and make them complete a project in a few days.
It teaches resiliency, builds mental strength, and can develop strategies on how to work with people someone may not get along with.
Taking out extreme bullying or worse, we need to stop sheltering the younger generation else they’ll, on average, become less able to handle stressors later in life.
The key part of this equation, to my armchair thinking, is having parents who are active in teaching the child what strategies to employ in difficult situations, and teachers that mediate to ensure nothing gets out of hand.
The parents are the crucial part. It's my job as parent to be active in my kids education. The school, is just part of that. Making sure, my kids is in the right school, in a safe environment, and enjoying the process, are my tasks too. As parents, you are people managing your kids in the school.
Each have their own problems, but common amongst them were parents that were either mentally absent, or physically absent.
In these cases, kids either ended up doing drugs and racing cars on windy roads, sometimes crashing into trees while high. Or getting into gangs or violence and having a record before 18.
I hear what you’re saying, but I’m sure you’ve known people at work or other places that have some dark triad traits, and it serves to recognize them.
At the time I didn’t know what those were, or why I saw some kids as “off”, but looking back they were definitely on that Machiavellian scale.
I learned not to trust them or get tangled in their shit
I think the issue often is that this an accidental byproduct of the school experience for many. There’s little or no intentional teaching of these things.
I would play soccer after school, and we had this one team mate who was home schooled.
Despite me being awkward and such, he didn’t get some social queues, and would either be mean or hurt kids not knowing the difference between joking around and poking fun, and just going too far.
Not nearly the case for all home schooled kids, but I think parents need to take extra attention to putting the child in social activities with their peers more so than a school-based parent would.
I think verbally standing up for yourself builds that, and in a classroom environment it can be a way where you can’t escape and need stand up for yourself or others.
You don’t want to work with people who you don’t get along with, but at the same time, you shouldn’t let a couple people ruin an otherwise great workplace
(I understand there are times where even 1 person can taint an entire work experience, and it’s not straightforward to simply stand up for yourself due to inter work dynamics. And in those cases, finding a new department or job all together may be best course of action.)
The objective of a school (education/socialization) is totally different than a workplace. IMO Oranges x Apples comparison
> like shuffling people around into random groups that may have built zero social rapport and have zero idea of each other's skills, and make them complete a project in a few days.
Not everyone is software developer. You described exactly the working environment of police officers, doctors, civil servants or even people working in huge institutions like banks
That's not unusual. In a larger company that kind of thing happens every time a new project touches multiple teams. If you're involved in that project, you may get to work with people you've never seen before for a few weeks.
I don't see this as a weird thing to be honest.
The vast majority, probably > 90%, functioned just fine socially after reaching adulthood. The remainder were usually on the autism spectrum. I believe autistic children are probably over-represented among homeschoolers.
This "homeschooling results in poor social skills" trope is absurd and needs to stop. There are a number of other problems with homeschooling, among a number of upsides as well. But barring Branch-Davidian type social isolation, social skills are just not an issue.
I think it will stop shortly. Thanks to COVID the vast majority of the western world got to see what a version of homeschooling could look like and perhaps unsurprisingly, many found it to be as good for the mind as WFH is for adults and chose to keep their children homeschooling post-COVID. I know a ton of people who have done this. Soon it will be seen as just another option for education without the social stigma.
Did they? I've only heard of what the experience looked like in 3 schools really, but all of them were essentially "same program, more homework, fewer lessons, all online". That seems very different to an actual homeschooling situation.
I never understood that to be honest. Most of the people homeschooling their children that I know also participate in homeschooling groups where there is a lot of social interaction, as well as church/religious events etc. It maybe rather ideologically siloed, which can be a bit shocking when the child starts emerging from the silo, but that is different thing than having “poor social skills”.
In practice, at least in the USA, it's different. By and large (with exceptions, obviously), you are motivated by religious separatism. You are not worried about the quality of the education, but the content. You see the public school system as uninvited ideology and home schooling as a loophole you can use to avoid it. The outcome is worse-educated kids who skipped entire subjects and are not even remotely prepared for higher education.
My wife's "moms groups" are always pushing homeschooling, and the sales pitch is never the quality of education. It's always that you can avoid those nasty topics like sex ed and evolution and that you can use the Bible in all your classes. More recently, during and after COVID, the pitches also included avoiding "political indoctrination". I know multiple actual families who pulled their kids out of public school for religious and ideological reasons, but nobody who did so with a legitimate intention of providing a higher quality factual education. Obviously they exist and a few are posting here, but I'd be shocked if those were even 10% of cases.
I'll never forget this clip[1] interviewing a homeschool family, where the poor kid looks mortified that she doesn't know even basic 2nd grade math, with her mom smugly laughing about it. These products of home schooling are not posting their success stories on HN.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem
There are of course problems with survey data, but it's a huge mistake to think that homeschooling = the worst anecdotes you can find on TV.
> By and large (with exceptions, obviously), you are motivated by religious separatism.
This is not true. In the National Household Education Survey (2016), only 16% of homeschoolers said religious motivation was their primary reason, and only 5% moral education was their primary reason. Dissatisfaction with school academic quality and concern about environment at school were the two primary drivers.
It’s a sad statement that people are surprised that they have the “right” to educate their own children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_st...
Instead, it’s all about mandating government control over children.
I'm involved in a religious group that has a higher rate of homeschooling.
But the adults, who were homeschooled, that I've met are some of the most well adjusted, charming and confident people around.
Yet I've met some who were bullied in school and have to seek help because of it.
That is not to say that you can't do home school wrong and screw up your kids. You totally can.
It might also be argued that "in many cases" sending your children to public school where they'll receive a vastly inferior education is child abuse.
In some people's opinion, not teaching your children about Jesus is child abuse, and vice versa.
So then who should draw the lines? When should the government and society have a greater say over a child than their own parents?
If literacy is falling year after year in a country and the schools are not making changes, should a parent not consider homeschool?
My kids attend public school, by the way, but I think this is a worthwhile discussion.
https://www.wbaltv.com/article/students-proficient-math-balt...
Additionally, government-run/-audited schools have a mandate to actually teach children science and facts, whereas homeschooling parents or religious cults often have absolutely zero requirements on what they have to teach their children - no requirements about even basic sexual education, biology, history, maths or ethics. These children often enough are so under-educated the only employment they can find is at some sort of religious cult.
Homeschooling without audits is child abuse.
OP said that “homeschooling without audits is child abuse”, and I was pointing out that that is disingenuous since a theoretical public school without audits would be even worse for children.
I agree that unaudited homeschooling can result in abuse, but the solution is not to ban homeschooling. It is to create a structure that supports an individual’s right to care for their children. That makes sure the child reaches certain age-dependent markers while giving the parent (and thus, the child) the freedom to explore the world how best suits them.
I do find the second half of your post a lot more compelling though. That’s what you should have lead with in your earlier comment. :)
The homeschooled people I know have outperformed most of their peers academically. Except one with Asperger's.
As for child abuse, sure but most will still have interactions with medical personnel, and other families via sports and friends.
There's mandates to teach what the government claims to be facts as facts.
Back in the 90s, it was regular curriculum to teach everyone to eat all the breads and pasta and to limit proteins and really limit fats. None of that was fact, but based on incomplete science and lobbying from the farm industry to continue a stable corn market.
Governments are not the authority on what is fact, science, or fiction. We saw that pretty plainly in 2020 when governments and scientists changed opinions on acceptable social practices based on political situations (eg. Church services were unacceptable, but BLM street parties, protests, and riots were acceptable)
So basically the kids would have no chances to learn, socialize and compete at all.
So
a) of course schools should be good and safe, but
b) people who homeschool should imho show that they put in the effort required to provide for a good education at least in some sense.
Otherwise some kids would live in squalor and would have no way out. I always thought that was the original motivation for general school duty, all cynicism about the actual implementation and its weaknesses aside.
The default should not be “you have no rights as a parent”, as it is in multiple countries.
They didn't succeed.
1 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/27/german-home-sc...
lolwat?!
I am not sure how this is handled around the world but in German speaking countries there is a "Schulpflicht"/compulsory education.
So by that definition if you homeschool your children (by taking them out of the public school system) you not only have the right to educate them, you have the duty to do so.
I am not sure how it is elsewhere, but the home schooled people I got to know fall into two categories:
1. Kids with rich parents who had the funds to get the right people
2. Kids with parents belonging to some religious sect that didn't want other kids to influence theirs
Both of them can have true deficiencies when it comes to interacting with "regular people" in their lives after
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/27/german-home-sc...
The most obvious downside is probably that the social dimension of public schools is hard to replace. But imagine you're five friendly families, where the different parents have different academic strengths. You all decide to work 80%, and rotate from day to day which parent couple teaches the children. Wouldn't that be something?
I actually made a radio documentary about one of these schools, Wicklow Sudbury in the South East of Ireland https://soundcloud.com/garethstack/the-free-school
As someone who had a very rough experience of school (the social side being the worst part), it was inspiring to see a place where kids could truly be themselves and pursue their interests (often to levels far beyond their 'grade year' in traditional education).
Let's add a teachers union that protects bad teachers, even to the point of keeping pedophiles in schools.
Let's close schools for 4 months so kids can work on the fields in the summer and forget everything when they return.
There are good teachers out there but in general I'm skeptical. Ideally teachers should have at least some real-world knowledge before becoming teachers. Unfortunately where I live teachers are a licensed occupation and you need a 5 year degree for a job with very little pay, so that by itself filters out a ton of experts who might be willing to teach.
That being said, I think in general most children learn like a sponge when given even a tiny bit of encouragement, so it may be moot.
I bet it's not that hard to replace. There are opportunities for interactions outside of school. Sports teams are a common example.
There are many after school clubs that children can join to be exposed to other children.
If you only have one child I could see them having limited contact with children during their school day but often siblings provide lots of opportunities to learn how to get along with others.
It's operated as a parent-run co-op. It's also government funded which on the bright side means it has to meet all the relevant standards and regulations... with the downside that we have to meet those standards. The ever increasing admin burden from the education department is a problem.
The regulations are really designed for larger entities.
You have to be committed. There are a lot of meetings (far more than in a regular school), each family does "time on" once a week where parents come in and be part of the kids education. There's also rosters for cleaning, regular working bees and so on.
The coop employs some qualified teachers who work alongside the parents. They're amazing - and also an interesting source of tension, as the teachers have professional obligations / are bound to government curriculum, which often conflicts with how parents would prefer things be done.
It's a lot of work (and a lot of interpersonal work and conflict resolution), but absolutely worth it for our family so far.
I say this without all the negative connotations associated with these words. It can be a positive thing, a state has to nation build to be successful, and for that they have to instill a uniform culture and ideology onto a probably very diverse population.
But when you look at school in the US and you wonder why we aren't taught to do taxes, manage our finances, manage a household, why so many people graduate school without the ability to read well and whatever other problems you see, once you understand that the goal is not education, you'll get it. These problems are the result of a system as odds with itself because it is designed for indoctrination and some people try to use it to educate. It doesn't work well.
I believe, with the internet and the revolution in information availability we have lived through and take for granted, school is basically obsolete and is a legacy system. I think homeschooling is the way to go. And you can actually educate your kids, instill them with your philosophy, create unique individuals, teach them critical thinking.
We've seen friends do an amazing job and their children have done very well academically and socially.
I have friends who work in our public school system. They tell me how hard it is. Most of their time is spent on a few problem kids. I respect what they do but think my wife can do better as she will be better resourced to teach when compared to one teacher with 30+ students.
It's our dream to give our children the best we can. We might sacrifice on our income but we think it's worth it.
Homeschooling is not the right choice for every family but for those who are able, I encourage it.
The biggest mistake we see new homeschooling families make is trying to replicate the public school experience (same class times, text books, tests, etc). I've never seen that succeed. Successful homeschooling is usually a very different dynamic and one of the greatest strengths is the ability to optimize everything to how the child learns best - while balancing that with time and effort constraints on the parents.
I love seeing my kids get excited about a concept, historical figure, or skill. When it happens, we run down that road as far as want to go. Watching their faces shine as the light bulb comes on is priceless. Helping them learn how to learn is one of the greatest joys I've had as a dad.
If you’re considering home schooling yourself, I would just encourage you to consider that, like any product with a passionate fan base, there is a powerful echo chamber built up to reinforce your decision, so don’t expect to get a full accounting of the pros and cons from people on the inside. I’d also suggest to folks who have never been homeschooled themselves to spend some time reading through the experiences of adults who were homeschooled. Your kids deserve for you to make as clear eyed of a decision as you can about this.
This is no more true than for people who send their kids to regular school. All of society is streamlined to do this. As soon as you attempt to home school, the vast majority of people will tell you it is akin to child abuse and you might be lucky enough to know a few other homeschooling parents who tell you otherwise but their voices will pale in comparison to the cacophony from the other side. Make no mistake that it is a massive leap of faith - not some easy decision made in an echo chamber.
I will also say, in my experience with homeschool families, the lifestyle attracts a disproportionate number of narcissists, as it offers a high degree of control over a captive audience to people with an inflated sense of their own abilities.
I’m not saying this is the case for you, and I’ve also certainly known many families who were motivated by special circumstances, individual needs, or just a desire for more freedom for kids who didn’t fit well into the public school system.
I would assert that the former is the modal case, and that parents looking to homeschool should critically examine their motivations and abilities. Unfortunately, the people who most need that reflection are usually the least inclined towards it.
I suppose I should feel reassured that home schooling does not challenge any truths?
Here in the US too many years ago, my personal experience with friends that were home-schooled up until 7th or 9th grades in school was that they were:
- nice, but not well-socialized (and high school was a terrible time to start socializing: having no established friends when everyone is in cliques!)
- smart and interested, but had gaps in their academic knowledge beyond math and English (science, social science, the arts)
- curious (not stunted by public schooling - a plus!), but less likely to question/distrust things, including other kids
- often more religious than the rest of us, but with less exposure to different faiths
Mostly, from what I can tell, if children aren't mistreated, are encouraged and helped along the way, they end up pretty okay regardless of how we characterize the process involved. Humans come curious and inquisitive from the factory, we mostly just need to get out of the way and fill in any accidental omissions.
I have plenty of conversations about the TWO genders, and the truth that "form follows function".
One hopes that the storm of folly raging in the culture consumes itself soonest.
And stay the STAY away from my little ones, so that we can keep everything low key, amabo te.
My point is that ideology cuts both ways and it’s very easy to lose sight of the sharp edges in your own when you are endlessly focused on your enemy’s. I grew up deep in your ideology and have seen it play all the way out not only in my own life, but in my entire community and communities like mine (and yours). All I’m saying is that force-feeding your own ideas has a way of backfiring in the long run.
Amabo te… quit being a goofball and go have a conversation with your kids instead of threatening strangers on hacker news.
Giving you the last word:
"Oh get over yourself."