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Comment by doctorh | Hacker News Reader

"Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. ... If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthy pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. ... I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find till after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and help others to do the same."

- CS Lewis

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The entire argument follows from a single incredible, unsubstantiated assumption, that “creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists.”

Being attributed to CS Lewis I’d hope it’s more metaphorical than theoretical.

As an atheist, I'm mostly glad I never met the man. I think that if I had, remaining an atheist might be more difficult than it is. Even reading his works seems risky at times.

Not that his arguments are particularly rational, mind you. He was just that damned good.

Funny: as an atheist, I have no a-priori goal to remain an atheist. In fact I would love it if someone could come along and convince me that their religion was correct. Imagine how comforting that would be: the surety of an afterlife! Alas, it is not to be, because even written in C.S. Lewis's flowery language, it's all obviously bullshit. Reading Tolkein may make me wish I lived in Rivendell but it's never going to convince me to worship Eru Illuvatar.

It does actually sound like you do have this a-priori goal. Additionally, it seems that you might have bad taste in literature.

> It does actually sound like you do have this a-priori goal

I don't wake up in the morning and say to myself "I sure hope I continue to believe that the Earth is round by the end of the day!" That's crazy: I have no vested interest in that belief. I believe the Earth is round because the evidence is overwhelming and the contra-evidence is unconvincing. I'm not worried that someone is going to come along and erroneously convince me the world is actually flat -- I trust my own judgement more than that. Unless, of course, the world actually is flat, in which case I'd want someone to convince me of it! It's the truth I have a vested interest in, whatever that truth actually is.

> Additionally, it seems that you might have bad taste in literature

It sounds like it's important to you that you make sure to not like mainstream things, so that you can look down on people who do. I encourage you to get over this. The more things you let yourself enjoy, the more fun you have in life. And you'll like yourself more too, knowing you're not being as much of a condescending prick. Trust me; I've been there.

I was a former atheist for over 10 years, and I also had a strong desire for Christianity to be true. I would humbly suggest that you simply ask God to give you the gift of faith. You might be surprised.

I think this is substantiated, we absolutely desire our needs. I can't think of one single desire that does not demand satisfaction. Perhaps I am not understanding something.

The context is that CS Lewis was a devout christian and evangelist, and is referring to spiritual desire.

I read "The Great Divorce", and interpreted it as metaphorical, in the "kingdom of heaven on earth" way. How honest work, faith, and openness are uplifting, vs getting trapped in psychological prisons.

But this quote refers to a literal afterlife. I don't know what to make of that.

It is not substantiated that all desires arise from an associated, achievable need.

I need food so I desire food and I eat to satisfy it.

I desire to have perfect love and relationships, but can’t seem to achieve it.

But if I cannot find a perfect slice of pizza, g-d exists and another world follows this one where the pizza is truly satisfying?

Believe whatever you like, but realize Faith is required for this to follow that. Logic won’t do it for you alone.

I see, the objection is specifically levelled at the mystic side of what he's saying. That's fair.

In the case that Lewis is alluding to (an unsatisfied yearning for spiritual fulfillment), the argument is tautological. If God is real in the way he imagines it, the presence of this spiritual yearning is a kind of evidence. If God is not real in the way he imagines, the presence of this spiritual yearning is evidence that the assertion is false.

Also: spiritual yearning can in fact be satisfied by spiritual practices. So the conclusion doesn't follow even if you accept his premise.

I've read some of CS Lewis' writings on religion. I'm an atheist married to a person of faith, so I'm interested in what the people I love find so compelling about their faith.

He's a very charismatic writer, but sneaky in his arguments. For example, my rebuttal to the above would be: "Humans are evolved from apes who are social animals. No matter what we achieve materially, we will always crave social recognition, status, and love from other humans. And because other humans are imperfect, we can never get to a state where we are perfectly loved, content, and free from the fear that these things will be taken away."

He has a similar argument in "Mere Christianity", where (I paraphrase and over-simplify) he says that whatever goodness there is in humans proves there must be a God, because otherwise why would people ever want to do anything "good" rather than just what immediately benefits them? But I feel like that has a similar response to the above - we know that evolution exists, we know we evolved from apes, and we've watched apes exhibit the same social behaviors that we do. There are many times when it makes sense to act pro-socially (to do "good" things as CS Lewis would describe them) in order to get a greater benefit (from your community) than you would by acting purely selfishly.

This doesn't make humans bad, or make it any less "good" to do good things! I don't understand the idea that these behaviors are any less good or meaningful because we do them for natural reasons rather than supernatural ones.

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