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I would argue that the problem with McMansions has less to do with their sheer size (though on the larger end, their size truly is ridiculous) and more to do with how badly utilized it all is.

One of these days I hope to be fortunate enough to design and build my own house, and so it's a subject I think about frequently. I'd like it to be a bit larger than average, but the allocation of space is determined almost entirely on practicality. So for example, rather than having a cavernous reception/living room and a dining room that's rarely used, the ground floor would have a small living room with the extra space instead going towards a kitchen with ample counterspace to do serious cooking in (something that's oddly skimped on not only in McMansions, but also more traditional houses) and a mudroom at the entrance so guests have a place to put their bags, coats, etc and have room to take their shoes off without stumbling over each other.

I suspect that there's demand for sizable, yet practically-designed houses like that but nobody's building them so people instead buy what is being built.

> has less to do with their sheer size(...) and more to do with how badly utilized it all is.

That's basically what I'm getting at. I've been in close to a dozen mcmansions, only one actually felt like it was a home rather than a catalogue ad.

I don't think the average McMansion owner has any intention of utilizing the space, and I'd argue they're designed in a way antithetical to utilizing the space.

Large open areas aren't suitable for living space unless you want a full living room in every room. If you were to say, convert one into an office, it'd be an interesting arrangement.

They're basically designed with the kind of banquet you see in movies, in mind. Once the party is over, you just have empty space.

> Large open areas aren't suitable for living space unless you want a full living room in every room. If you were to say, convert one into an office, it'd be an interesting arrangement.

Oh my god, the move away from having actual rooms is so awful.

But as long as people keep falling for the "wow" factor (in real estate photos and on first-viewings) of big, useless open spaces and cavernous open living/dining/kitchen combo rooms and signing on the dotted line, it's what we're gonna keep getting :-/

I agree with you here but I think you might be more horrified with the image I actually was trying to draw.

These houses have distinct rooms(not open concept)a, but they're all so big that most of it is empty space.

Ah, yeah, that sucks too. A small count of enormous rooms where a larger count of normal-sized rooms would be way more useful.

"Open concept" is way more horrible than anything McMansions have ever done (except themselves having open concept).

Make all the rooms have no walls, and then make the house even bigger so you can get away from all the noise! Brilliant.

I too want to design and build my own (modest) house.

Maybe I should get cracking....

The "barndominum" craze around here is getting kinda interesting; especially as you can build in "steps" depending on how you design it.

To me it sounds mostly like you're describing a well-planned Victorian. There's of course some unpleasant cross-pollination with McMansion designs, but the more sensible floor plans still follow the practice of a bunch of smallish, specialized but not hyper-specialized, efficiently laid-out rooms that are easy to move between.

It's worth pointing out that nobody is building "well-planned Victorian" houses, either.

Of course, another question there is, how much of that is the result of local zoning and permitting processes banning all the stuff that people actually like? I know I've seen a lot of complaints about basic stuff with stairs, windows, and bedroom sizes in older plans that have been rendered illegal by newer zoning.

I haven't seen such complaints about basic stuff. Maybe it's just my own bias, but whenever I see people complaining about "regulations" choking out The Way Things Used To Be, it's usually actually about cost to the producer, whether houses or soda or anything else. See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35894852

Everything that made century homes desirable isn't mass-producible, and therefore untenable.

> the massive foyer staircase and inexplicable loft/bridge to overlook your leather couches with USB ports in them, sitting across from a tv mounted 3 feet too high to ever have a comfortable viewing angle

I'm rolling, LOL. Nailed it.

My main problem with living in houses built post-McMansion-influence (so, a great deal of what's been built for the last 25 years or so) is how terrible the layouts are. You'll have 3,500 sqft but it feels about as usable and spacious when you're actually living in it as a well-laid-out 2,200.

I once rented a basement bedroom from a couple when I had to do an internship. The house was a ginormous McMansion just like you described. I would occasionally go up to the main part of the house and it dawned on me that the couple had no furniture. Just this giant 5000 square foot house with seemingly dozens of empty rooms. They had two patio lounge chairs in the family room and a cheap (for the time) TV, and that was pretty much all I saw. Imagine leveraging yourself to the hilt, getting a mortgage that two people had to work to pay (and still having to rent rooms to others)... simply to get a huge box made of cheap lumber and drywall, and not even being able to live in it like civilized people.

I once checked out a similar basement apartment for a friend. There were three or four bedrooms within this basement, taking up maybe 30% of the total basement square footage. The rest was absolutely unusable open space with tons of support beams breaking it up, and an extremely slippery granite floor. The kitchen was nice and you could theoretically see the TV in the "living room" zone, but it was like 30-40 feet away so it was too far to be useful.

Just a big ole batcave under a giant home.

Selection bias though, right? Anyone who leverages up to buy a home and then has to rent out a part of it to a stranger is, probably, by definition, having cashflow issues?

And to contrast that, I've been friends with someone who made significantly more money than I do (or likely ever will), and while their house was in a nice, upscale neighbourhood and was somewhat bigger than mine, overall it was a pretty normal suburban design.

What they had was taste, and good priorities.

Rather than put money into lots of space, or showy exterior features, they put it into the kitchen, and the bathroom. I was lucky enough to be able to stay at their house a few times (visiting the area for reenacting purposes—that's how I met them), and use their absolutely palatial shower. They are also foodies, and love to cook good food and cook it well, so they made their kitchen both beautiful and functional. (They also make stained glass as a hobby; I have no idea how expensive that is, nor how it would compare to buying a similar piece, but they had installed some of their work in their own windows, which added to the class of the place.)

I believe the difference between someone with a McMansion and people who own houses like that one is a sense of security in their own position in the world. McMansions are entirely about conspicuous consumption—about showing off your wealth, so that you can brag about it and rub the noses of lesser beings in it.

> What they had was taste, and good priorities.

Upper-middle-class sensibilities and attitudes, rather than middle.

> They also make stained glass as a hobby; I have no idea how expensive that is, nor how it would compare to buying a similar piece, but they had installed some of their work in their own windows, which added to the class of the place.

Pretty accessible, actually. My wife does it off-and-on and is always shocked at how much people charge for not-especially-well-made pieces at e.g. art fairs. The equipment and materials are cheap, as hobbies go. Buying decent finished stained glass pieces is expensive—but getting decent at making it's not all that hard and doesn't take too long, and the materials are cheap. It's one of those "very cheap if you DIY and count the hours as fun hobby-time, pretty expensive if you don't" things. It's especially easy if you just use pre-made templates rather than designing your own, and there are tons of those cheap or free online (and nobody who doesn't do stained glass will think anything of it).

I think she only made a half-dozen pieces or so before she was roughly matching the quality of stuff we'd see at art fairs and such. Maybe 30ish hours to reach that level. Very-good tools might run you as much as $1,000 total, but you can get started for more like $150-200 (shop used for the grinder, especially). Glass is glass, it's not really that expensive when you're just buying sheets of it.

The biggest pain with it is materials storage and little glass bits getting on the ground in the work area (and sometimes tracked outside of it...) making it kinda hazardous. :-/

> Upper-middle-class sensibilities and attitudes, rather than middle.

Not really.

It's not a "middle-class sensibility or attitude" to like mashed-together architectural styles, or rooms three times larger than the furniture you've got to fill it, or a cluster of rooflets overlapping in apparently random ways.

Aesthetics certainly have cultural elements to them, but those aesthetic choices really only appeal to the subset of people who...own or aspire to McMansions.

I've never been anything but middle-class myself, nor has nearly anyone I knew, and I've never personally known anyone to perceive McMansions as something good.

Estate sales are commonly held by the estates of the recently deceased. So, there may be some bias in your sampling, since you're walking around the house of someone who was at the end of their life, not right in the heart of it.

And, I'm not sure large houses are as wasteful as you let on. After all, the floor area of a room grows quicker than the perimeter does. A 100 sq ft room could have 40' of walls, but a room with 4x the area could only have 2x the length of walls.

And it might just be my area, but there is no way you can get a bespoke home of equivalent square footage as you could a pre-built mcmansion.

In this area, people will do estate sales when they move as well. These are very much alive families, maybe their kids have mostly moved out. Totally not dead people homes. Those are a lot smaller and quaint.

I doubt it’s the equivalent money, the stuff you’re talking about (hiring master craftsmen) probably costs 5x-10x what a large house built the way you’re describing does.

I think you'd be surprised. Maybe double and that's assuming same square footage.

I'm talking "turn of the 20th century business man" size. You could cut down the average mcmansion size in half and have an overall nicer house with fine materials and it'd still be bigger than most homes built before 1990.

Arguably worse than the house itself: owners who stay in precarious financial situations to pay off too much house. Yeah, it's their decision and they're probably learning a lesson, but...for what? Signaling to a select few people that they've made it? How is it worth the stress? Do they realize how time and effort they put into what is empty posturing?

Little wonder why some people's midlife crisis is explosive.

I understand the allure...I need a McMansion to store all of my kids toys.

That's what a good basement with no pillars is for! Just a huge toy room.

For a while, every place I moved to was slightly larger than the last. This is culturally what we're directed to: have a guest room. Build a man cave. Two ovens in your kitchen, why not? An office with a library. A room for the piano. There's always a way to put that money into stuff.

My first house was modest. About 700sqft semi-detached, built in 1905 as housing for mill workers, in the Philly exurbs. Good bones but a total gut job. The appeal was mostly that I could walk to the train station in three minutes. Cute backyard, but barely one parking spot per house.

Next place we got was 1300sqft (not including the full basement) - three bedrooms! My wife and I each had a space. Two car driveway a mile from city hall in what's barely north Philadelphia. Mid-1990s construction, weirdly suburban - I think it had more of a lawn than we had in the exurbs. So much room for stuff! Especially in the basement with its ceilings!

By a quirk, we came across a building in the historic district. It needed a ton of work, but the price was too good to pass up. We had been renting our first house out, but the tenant had broke her lease, so we moved back to the exurbs, sold our Philly house, and bought this weird property... 16'x100' venue space on the first floor, with a 16'x30' apartment on the second floor. We added a third floor (approx 1200sqft, single bedroom), rent out the second floor as an airbnb, and will be making the first floor a venue again.

Moving from 1300sqft back down to 700sqft, then up to 1200sqft (but with no basement) was a master course in space optimization and mindfulness about consumerism. When I see these McMansions, I think: that's a lot of air to heat & cool. Those are a lot of rooms to fill with junk. That's a lot to dust and vacuum. And let's not even talk about design and architectural choices, or how everything interesting is a fifteen minute drive - at least.

I didn't think I'd have a custom home built in my 30s, let alone adaptive reuse of what turned out to be an 18th century building, but I feel like I accidentally stumbled out of a consumerism trap and into a kind of Goldilocks zone. When someone from NYC visits, they think our place is huge. When someone from central PA visits, they think it's kind of cramped. McMansions baffle me. There are so many more interesting things you can do with money, and so many more interesting places you can live - but I get how it's hard to break the spell of "get a bigger house, buy more stuff." And I'm not saying I made a better choice... I also think about how much money I spent to live in the spacial equivalent of a trailer home.

As much as I couldn't go back to the suburbs, suburban people often have trouble adapting to this kind of space. We had Airbnb guests a couple of years ago, who were gifted a weekend stay by their daughter. On the first night, they used Ubereats to order McDonalds, stayed inside and watched TV. In the morning, they told us they were checking out early, and that it was no fault of ours. I don't know if I can properly express to you how absurd it is to order McDonalds in a town with world class food options, or to stay inside watching TV in one of the most walkable, historic, and street-level active cities in the country. But hey, "Country Mouse & Town Mouse" is a fable that's at least 2000 years old. To each their own, I suppose.

Ever see a nice floor globe, or just the fake ones for storing booze in?

Come to think of it, no actually. The items in these homes are so incredibly mundane its shocking.

I like checking out the "Studies" or home offices out of curiosity. Typically they're adorned with various right leaning politco books of the last couple decades. Maybe a model boat.

More often than not, the home offices are weirdly cramped, the computer desk shoved in a closet or weirdly placed in the middle of the room.

It truly is wasted on them. Even a boor like me would throw in some cheap vases, busts, imitation statues, etc.

Wealth is always wasted on the wealthy.

If you're grinding, you don't have time to be creative.

If you're creative, you don't want to grind.

if only you could decide on what other people could spend their money on, then the world would be such a better place, right? and, you seem to have no problem enjoying the downstream effects of their "estate".

btw, that thing you're undoubtedly alluding to, the 1-story craftsman bungalow with custom woodwork and detached garage/shed, gravel driveway and on half an acre with a perfectly manicured herb garden and tomato beds is more expensive and probably located in a jurisdiction with much higher taxes.

i live in a concrete loft which is basically the polar opposite of a mcmansion but can you enlighten me how i'm doing my entire life wrong also?

different types of housing exist because people have different tastes.

I almost never find anything good at these estate sales, its purely for entertainment when I see a sign as I drive by.

Most of the items there are really cheaply made and have way too high an asking price, or are well made but some of the tackiest design trends of the 80s/90s/2000s.

I've already refinished one solid wood piece of furniture with the black splatter marks added to invoke a fake "old". Not doing that nonsense again.

Estate sales are the code word for "way too expensive, don't even bother", especially if it's being run by a "firm".

Now if they call it a garage sale you might get a deal.