Biggest industries burn through $7.3T of natural capital a year
grist.org
grist.org
https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/economics/externa...
Stephen Hawking criticized the economy for ignoring externalities, particularly in the context of climate change. In his book "Brief Answers to the Big Questions," Hawking wrote, "We are now learning that climate change is bringing with it not only changes to the physical environment but also to the way we think about economics. It is forcing us to recognize that many of the ways we have been measuring economic progress, based on the idea of unlimited growth, have been deeply flawed"
Cage-free chicken eggs and eco-friendly shoe/clothing brands are quickly becoming more popular than the alternative. Consumers generally care about negative externalities so they often do not stay externalities for long.
The length of the work week and worker wages are not external to the Ford motor company. Paying for cancer treatments for people who live near roads, and to reduce the noise pollution from cars in cities would be examples of remediating externalities.
Greenwashing fads come and go, it’s all built on dumb technicalities. Try navigating your way through “cage free” vs “pasture raised” vs “certified humane” and thinking about what negative externalities those actually mitigate, how they’re enforced, what that amounts to in the grand scheme of things. Restaurant and fast food and your average grocer/shopper are still picking the cheapest Tyson cut. “Organic grass fed” milk is still drawn from the exhausted teat of 24/7 artificially inseminated veal-factories. It’s all marketing campaigns built on dumb technicalities.
I think the title is amusing. People in the comment section responded not based the content but on the title asking "why do you want to make the oil industry go bust?" The entire point of the post is that nobody has to do anything to achieve that outcome. It already is bankrupt.
please.
I'm all for criticizing Chomsky, but let's do it with a little more sophistication. He would agree with you wholeheartedly that the USSR, China, and so forth are repressive dictatorships. He rejects the use of violent revolution.
The criticism comes when we look at who falls into that category. Famously starting with the Khmer Rouge, he claimed that we shouldn’t believe the refugees escaping the killing fields. After evidence emerged he also famously never admitted he was wrong. He denies the Bosnian genocide, and most recently he has said such charming things as: “we should give Putin the benefit of the doubt” (regarding the Ukraine war).
And even the initiative to plant more trees in the millions. For all its noble purpose and good will— which I don’t fault and thing should continue— will have only the barest and most minimal impact on carbon capture.
And this is just o e of many externalities unpaid by corporations, subsidizing the cost of products we all use every day.
But no— I have no solution here, at least nothing plausibly likely to happen until the impacts of our actions becoming so obvious that they cannot be ignored. I am hopeful the human race will survive it, but only with enormous sacrifice.
The days of the traditional corporation, i.e. an organization that has shareholders, management, and employees made sense in the period of 1600 to 1950, but since then the world has gotten smaller. Our ability to shift costs (externalities) onto our planet has been curtailed by the fact that we’ve gone from a population of millions to billions. When you try to grow wealth by extracting stuff, sometime, someone, somewhere is going to feel it and will pay for it without any benefits to them.
Regulation, has been shoehorned in as a solution. But it operates as a bandaid that no one has been happy with. Every regulation simultaneously goes too far and doesn’t go far enough. It shifts decision making power from one institution to another, (business to government) and depends on an army of bureaucrats, to implement.
The fundamental solution is simple, make corporations pay for the externalities they create. This would be done at the point of purchase and would not grow the size of government because taxation systems that do this already exist. The implementation of this idea though is inconsistent and politically perilous because of path dependence. No one wants to pay for something they got for free before. For example, Citizens Climate Lobby has been campaigning for years for a Carbon Price and despite a lobbying effort from over 200,000 volunteers the US has yet to see a carbon price implemented. To do political lobbying for every externality like this would be a Sisyphean task.
My solution, high concept, would be to make a society like Star Trek. We need to make a techno utopia, paired with social progress to sustain it. Although you can’t have Star Trek without warp drive, warp drive doesn’t make Star Trek, humanity had also evolved socially on the show. We will not travel faster than light, our warp drive will be computers. One of the keys to my approach is to have better models, models of climate, models of toxicity, models of the economy, models of human behavior, etc. That will let us have predictive capabilities to test ideas before they have consequences and model where costs are borne and bill the beneficiaries. The raw TFLOPs of our hardware will not give us this, rather human ingenuity and skepticism will. To achieve that will require giving people license to question and develop. This means giving teachers autonomy, instituting universal basic income, and creating public spaces.
It's my understanding that not too long ago, when this last came up in an online discussion I partipated in, our modern lifestyle is burning through some 2.5 earth's annual renewable generation worth of resources each year by using non-renewable resources.
Consider that we burn up to 10 calories of petro-chemical energy to get a single food calorie for some crops --- we need to transition to some sort of sustainable lifestyle and energy usage in the near future --- the sooner the better.
A phrasing which I think would make sense, and which should at least be considered in such discussions is: Under what circumstances does a person have the right to generate more heat energy than 1/current human population portion of the amount of energy which the planet is able to radiate off into space overnight?
One good blog post discussing this sort of thing:
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist...
Whether large populations should exist or not, they do today, and this makes us pretty reliant on high-yield low-cost food production.
With the article calling out wheat farming as one of their top concerns, what do they want as an alternative? Starving people? Depopulation?
You can make strong environmental arguments without reaching to such extremes. It actually undercuts the position.
Skimming the report, it doesn't do reasonable job of taking land use and water use into account, but in principle, there's nothing wrong with taking unsustainable portion of land use and water use into account.
How much does the Mississippi spill into the ocean and why don't you consider that a massive waste of freshwater?
The physical systems on which we depend for survival do not care about what we want. Our only hope for maintaining a human population is to recognize that.
A company which produces nuclear waste can pay the cost to store it, but cannot undo its existence. A company that burns oil can offset the carbon capture, but cannot put new oil in the ground.
A company that cuts a forest of 500 year old trees can't wait 500 years to verify they estimated the cost of raising such a forest again correctly (and also, the company will be gone by then anyway).
Right now, we care about CO2, but there's a lot more to natural resources than simple CO2 math will give us.
> we shouldn't outlaw useful and fundamentally positive things that emit CO2 like driving a car, but rather tax the pollution according to the cost to recapture that carbon from the shared environment
Focusing on incrementally taxing things like that is basically what the parent article complains about. That misses the old-growth forest for the CO2 in one tree.
> It is fundamentally impossible to completely undo things, trivially so from the second law of thermodynamics.
As in, undo things as a reasonable person would define them. Undoing burning gasoline could indeed involve taxing such that we produce more hydrocarbons (which is possible to do), but what good does burying oil do? I don't agree with much of the article; I think we should benefit from the bounty of the universe and I believe in property rights and the ability to own land. However, more reasonable externalities are still relevant (such as putting pollution into a shared atmosphere or body of water) or potentially even some economic or social externalities. And as the article hints at, addressing the externality of who gets access to the free bounty of the universe.
But its premise: "none would be profitable if environmental costs were fully integrated" is flawed, because the prices would just rise and consumption would decrease if externalities were incorporated.
The author, David Roberts subsequently wrote for Vox (https://www.vox.com/authors/david-roberts) and is now publishing a really terrific podcast via his Substack at http://volts.wtf
Or how about when the oil companies invented the idea of “carbon footprint” to convince the public it was their responsibility to curb emissions, even though the vast majority of pollution isn’t from consumers?
A farmer that burns fuel to produce food gets paid for the food that burning the fuel enabled. There is no positive externality that needs to be compensated here.
If you wanted to make an argument about positive externalities you would talk about farmers leaving the soil in better condition than they arrived i.e. regenerating natural capital instead of burning it.
This is non sequitur. You can't go from "industries ranked by environmental impacts" to "biggest industries". This is so ridiculous I double checked whether I missed something, and no, I haven't missed anything. The logic really is that bad.
The article essentially claims that nearly all major industries would be unprofitable is forced to pay their externalities. Great! Let’s shut it all down, let everyone gradually die off and then we’ll finally reach the sustainable utopia these people seek.
Citation needed.
Yes, they're a favorite. But I always thought that it was because economic models are usually simple, closed systems and that's a trivial, approachable way to show that they're wrong.
Similar to finding "bugs" with provably correct functional code. Wherever it touches the real world, it's no longer simple math and something hinky's bound to happen.
In the face of a actually having to price in externalities, entire industries may end up with fundamental changes.
Even the more complicated land value tax often just is a constant percentage of the land value (85%). The question is what the land value is but even then it is often just using some average prices based on recent transactions with small, less than 100% adjustment factors depending on local factors. The model complexity again is constrained and does not allow infinite complexity. The conclusions you can draw from a land value tax don't go beyond the money the government spends on maintaining and building new infrastructure.
My point is that we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we can arrive at “rational” decisions about resource use by reducing everything to accounting.
Have you any idea what should replace rational decisions and reducing everything to accounting? I cannot imagine what the other way may be, but I would like to know.
40% with a ridiculously small amount of green areas. If that's the case, we'll, then, every CO2 emission is easily absorbed by the rest of the green areas in the world.
(Less sarcastically, please share the source of your claims. Obviously they're wrong, but I'd like to know how they're wrong.)
Nobody wants to live in the world envisioned by climate activists. That is why activists have made no progress in the last 50 years.
It’s also a strange argument to make that activists need to convince you that drinking contaminated water, breathing polluted air and ruining the natural world for profit isn’t a sustainable vision for the future.
Activists aren’t trying to sell you a product they are trying to warn you. Holding them to the showmanship antics of any given CEO seems misguided.
- OK but what's your vision for this issue
- I'm going to spray water on it, also you should stand farther away
- Aren't you just being reflexively contrarian?
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/02/tesla-tsla-q4-2022-vehicle-d...