If a PR Says “Artificial Intelligence,” There’s a Good Chance It’s Meaningless
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Everyone agrees there's a lot of hype right now but no one thinks _they're_ a part of it. You know why? It's because we're told we're on an exponential growth (we are), so everyone is trying to force it. So each time there's a breakthrough, we're desperate for it to be rocketship that takes us there.
It's time to step back and let the exponential thing happen on its own. We didn't get here because people in the 20th century sat down and plotted a way to achieve exponential growth; it just sorta happened.
That growth curve doesn’t “just happen”, but is precisely the result of people trying to constantly push for the next Big Thing (TM).
I am seeing a lot of comments paraphrasing this, without pointing to anything.
A lot of comments also say confidently and repetitively that AI is different from crypto.
The best use case I have found so far for ChatGPT is...editing HN posts. [1] But after being mildly satisfied with it once, it seemed like too much bother to use it regularly. Like being a nobody and getting an autopen [2] to sign for you.
But more than a month ago, there was a "Show HN" by someone who claimed that they had an AI-powered solution to writing SQL. [3] The tagline was literally Never write SQL again. That sure sounds like something that could replace real people's jobs, that could be spun into a multibillion dollar market cap.
I tried it, made an attempt at a constructive comment without being negative, and there was not one response, from the submitter or anyone else.
I could explain in scathing terms how useless it appeared, but anyone capable of understanding what writing code is could read between the lines, and nobody like that engaged, so I let it lie.
What is a reasonable person to think about real applications?
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35487015
I'm reminded of the Microsoft "make more robust" AI feature in VSCode. Their flagship example screenshot was flat out wrong.
The starting code is an html form with a clear bug. It has an onclick rather than onsubmit handler, which means pressing the enter key won't submit the form properly.
Their advertised fix doesn't address that issue. Instead it adds a CSS vendor prefix. First, manually adding vendor prefixes is almost never the right solution, just have one of the existing tools do that automatically. Second, this specific vendor prefix was only in use for a very short period of time years ago. So almost all users currently use browsers that don't need it, and almost all users of outdated browsers aren't helped by the prefixed version.
And this is a case where Microsoft would have had subject matter experts right down the hall from whomever wrote this announcement. It makes me even more skeptical of applications outside of tech.
I fail to understand why people get so up in arms about how some people find use in these tools. Does not work for your niche? Cool, then just don't use it.
It feels like I'm getting massively subsidized by the AI hype tho. Even if I were to pay 20 dollars a month for that, it wouldn't come close to covering how much it cost to train and host it.
I agree that it’s not usually an intentional mixup. From what I’ve seen it’s mostly a lack of rigor in defining terms.
1. Intelligence is surely best characterised not bivalently; if, then, it’s a matter of degree, it is at least somewhat non-trivial to show that LLMs make no progress whatsoever on previous AI (soi-disantes).
2. It’s also unclear that intelligence is best characterised by a single factor. Perhaps that’s uncontroversial in the psychometric literature (I wouldn’t know), but even then, why would g be the right way of characterising intelligence in beings with quite different strengths and weaknesses? And, if ‘intelligence’ admits multiple precisifications, the claims that (a) some particular system displays intelligence simpliciter (perhaps a pragmatic notion) on one such precisification and (b) that some particular system displays some higher level of intelligence than before in that respect are yet weaker and more difficult to rebut.
3. It’s unclear whether ‘are’ is to be construed literally (i.e., indicatively) or as a much stronger claim, e.g., in the Fodorian or Lucasian vein, that some wide class of would-be AI simply can’t achieve intelligence due to some systematic limitation.
I am being serious. I just applied GPT4 to ELI5 your comment to me. I feel like I have crossed some threshold and I’m not sure if I am proud of it, but there it is.
I am still not entirely sure what your main point is, but I learned about the Fodorian and Lucasian arguments which I don’t find particularly impressive, but then again, I need a language model to explain things to me. Interesting nonetheless.
I did not know about “g” either. How did I survive for so long you may ask and it is indeed a miracle. Anyway, a nuanced understanding of intelligence seems reasonable and useful.
The concept “nostrum” was also new to me as was the word “simpliciter”. In fact I asked GPT4 for a table of uncommon words and concepts in your post and it was quite substantial.
All in all I rarely come across a post that makes me feel like an ape and sets me on a path of creativity and knowledge. Thank you for that.
Edit: obligatory response in the proper style:
“The manner in which this prose is articulated can be characterized as both prolix and imbued with a certain aesthetic appeal. One is left to ponder the origins of the author's stylistic inclinations. As for my own stance concerning the matter of artificial intelligence, it may be succinctly encapsulated as follows: "AI demonstrates utility, and as such, it possesses merit." This, regrettably, constitutes the extent of my intellectual engagement with the subject.”
1. On one view of intelligence, something is either intelligent or not. On another, some things are more intelligent than others, but there’s no clear cutoff between intelligent and non-intelligent things. On the first view, it seems quite plausible that actually existing ‘AI’ (e.g., GPT) doesn’t count as intelligent. On the second view, actually existing ‘AI’ seems to be at least somewhat intelligent: more so than most other software we’ve written. If the second view is right, it’s unhelpful in many cases to simply pronounce things intelligent and unintelligent.
2. By way of analogy, suppose I say that a walking route is quite hard. I might mean that it’s very long. Or I might mean that it’s hilly. Or I might mean that it’s very boggy. Each is a perfectly good reason to say that the route is hard. So a walk that’s merely quite hilly counts as hard, even if it’s fairly short and the ground is dry.
We might say that attributions of intelligence are similar. If so, we can attribute intelligence to systems for many different individually respectable reasons. Perhaps a system is intelligent because it can respond to novel situations in some appropriate way. Perhaps it’s intelligent because it predicts a certain statistical parameter correctly. Perhaps it’s intelligent because it’s small but can correctly deal with a wide range of situations.
If the analogy is right, it would be odd (perhaps wrong) to say that a system good at one of these just isn’t intelligent because it falls down on the other measures. If so, surely GPT counts as intelligent for at least one respectable reason or another.
On the other hand, suppose I call someone tall. There’s only one way to be tall. Being fat, or having muscly arms, or having long legs but a short torso don’t count. So the analogy doesn’t apply to all concepts. Does it apply to intelligence? Initially, it might seem that it doesn’t: surely there are lots of ways to be intelligent. But I’ve heard that the psychometrics literature suggests that all these measures correlate to a great degree, and statistically can be predicted by a single-factor model (thus ‘g’). That might suggest that there really is only one way to be intelligent, and that appearances are misleading.
I am not familiar with the psychometrics literature, so I wouldn’t know; maybe the single-factor model is wrong. But my point is this. Even if the single-factor model is right, it’s only been shown to be right about humans (so far): their statistical base has comprised humans. So maybe a multi-factor model of intelligence works better for would-be machine intelligence. For example, perhaps arithmetic ability in humans is predicted well by a single factor; maybe it’s even reducible to some single form of intelligence. But we can obviously separate arithmetic ability from e.g. analytic ability in computers, to an almost arbitrary extent, by making very good calculators. (And LLMs are often not very good at arithmetic, though I gather that’s being improved.) If that is so, intelligence is more like difficulty of a walking route than tallness. And so that’s another reason to avoid straightforward denial that would-be AI is or could be intelligent.
3. It’s quite plausible that no presently existing would-be AI should count as intelligent. But we don’t know whether that’s a general limitation or not. And if there are general limitations, how general are they? For example, maybe LLMs couldn’t be intelligent but some GOFAI type thing could be. Or maybe we simply need a new architecture.
One argument we could read in Fodor is that neural networks have to implement a so-called language of thought to be meaningfully intelligent. That would be quite a general limitation, though arguably one we could overcome. (I’ve always been a bit confused by what Fodor really meant by a language of thought, and in particular what he required of mental representations, but I haven’t made a full study of him yet.)
A much stronger argument from J.R. Lucas is broadly ‘anti-mechanism’, which would roughly include everything we can presently engineer or can be run on a Turing machine. This is very strong, and not many people agree in my experience.
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The point of my comment is that these matters are complicated, and the comment above didn’t really address these complications. Sometimes nuance doesn’t add much or isn’t worth it. (I quite like Kieran’s ‘Fuck Nuance’ as a lesson for all theorising, not just sociology.) But sometimes it does matter. ‘[T]here is no artificial intelligence’ is hasty enough to require a response.
I’ve tried GPT on some topics in philosophy of language, and it hasn’t really done particularly well. I don’t have any strong reason to think that such limitations will either persist or be overcome, however.
Disagree - GPT4 definitely has a level of reasoning, can abstract problems, can apply knowledge in new and different ways, so it definitely meets some definitions of intelligence.
What's your definition of intelligence that GPT4 wouldn't fulfill at some level? (Personally I believe it's possible to have intelligence without sentience/self-awareness)
I don't mean to down-play how impressive models like GPT-4 are - they are very impressive and have great utility.
The problem is we are talking about PR, and when you throw around words like "artificial intelligence" it misleads everyone who is not intimately familiar with the limitations of such models.
> Personally I believe it's possible to have intelligence without sentience/self-awareness
The general public doesn't make that distinction when you throw around terms like artificial intelligence. They hear artificial intelligence and imagine "thinking machines".
No doubt people will say this is just moving the goalposts - that whatever these models achieve it will never be "AI", but that's demonstrably false. The concept of AI has existed in film and other media in the same form since forever, and it's pretty clear if you put those representations side by side with what we actually have today, that we are not even close yet.
For some reason "advances in machine learning" just isn't hip enough to get funding, so "AI" gets thrown around instead.
Disagree - GPT's mechanics are that it guesses what word/token should come next, however it is now displaying emergent capabilities which do show an agent which can generalize. Maybe not to 'AGI' levels, but it is starting to show little signs of it.
> It can't do basic maths, or even follow instructions. It can't make valid moves in a game.
It can do basic maths - better than most humans (but it cannot do maths better than a calculator). If I ask GPT4 to calculate 51 times 102 it will get the answer, despite most humans struggling with this task. It does this just via internal representation without any specific 'calculator' API call or functionality.
It can follow instructions - if I tell it to take the sentence "abcd" and then tell it to follow the following steps: "1) swap b and c around, 2) reverse the string, 3) ignore step 1", it will output "dcba" and describe how it reached that output
It can make valid game moves - Without being formally taught chess it will make valid chess moves most of the time (see: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xyjhFCSSXZsW6HDBb/a-chess-ga...). It made 29 valid moves before making invalid moves. Again, GPT4 has not been specifically trained to play chess, it just has picked up some chess rules and games while reading the internet and this has somehow formed some sort of internal representations for chess within it's model. I can also describe a new/novel game or puzzle to GPT4 and it can have a go at playing and solving it.
What it can't do is learn at the moment, although learning isn't part of a lot of definitions of intelligence, which is why we have to define intelligence before you can say if it is/isn't intelligent.
You are right that it clearly can learn though, the learnings are just baked-in with each cycle.
I suspect we'll start seeing ideas akin to that tried in the open source community.
- Give me a list of US and European officials with names ending in "-land"
1. Mary Landrieu - former US Senator from Louisiana 2. Harold Landry - US Congressman from Tennessee 3. Jacky Rosen - US Senator from Nevada 4. Chris Van Hollen - US Senator from Maryland 5. Brian Mast - US Congressman from Florida 6. Roland Rudd - British businessman and political campaigner 7. Sadiq Khan - Mayor of London, England 8. Martin Schulz - former President of the European Parliament 9. Angela Merkel - Chancellor of Germany 10. Mark Rutte - Prime Minister of the Netherlands 11. Stefan Löfven - Prime Minister of Sweden 12. Erna Solberg - Prime Minister of Norway 13. Alexander Stubb - former Prime Minister of Finland 14. Kaja Kallas - Prime Minister of Estonia 15. Xavier Bettel - Prime Minister of Luxembourg.
And the areas where it isn't successful appear to being closed quickly as new discoveries are found - GPT4 is dramatically better at maths and truthiness than GPT3.5 for instance (still not perfect at either, but improved enough).
GPT4 can do things a child can't do, and a child can do things that GPT4 can't do. You don't have to be able to do everything a human can do to be classed as intelligent, and GPT currently underperforms humans in some areas and overperforms them in others.
> As an AI language model, I do not have access to a pre-existing list of the least frequent trigrams in English. However, I can generate a list of some of the rarest trigrams based on the frequency of occurrence in a large corpus of English language text. . . . (list follows)
How can I be sure of this list it claims to generate when I have evidence it can't identify substrings?
It’s possible for a system to be intelligent and also fail at these questions.
IMO a system is intelligent if it can answer some questions that require intelligence (by definition) - it does not have to be able to answer all questions.
> Truthiness is the belief or assertion that a particular statement is true based on the intuition or perceptions of some individual or individuals, without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts. Truthiness can range from ignorant assertions of falsehoods to deliberate duplicity or propaganda intended to sway opinions.
It’s interesting that you brought up chess. It can do chess reasonably because there is a huge amount of chess data on the web. In that sense, it is not too surprising to me. If someone several years ago had said “I scoured the entire internet for chess-related text and fed it into an AI model, and it can play at a low-amateur level” I would be impressed but I wouldn’t be hailing a new era of general intelligence.
An example that illustrates that huge amounts of specialized data is needed for it to do any particular task: I fed GPT-4 the rules of Duck Chess. Duck Chess is exactly like regular chess but after each move, the player who just moved takes the rubber duck and places it on any empty square (there is just one duck shared between the players, and you have to move the duck: you can’t leave it on the same square for consecutive moves). Pieces cannot move through or stop on the duck. The game eliminates the concepts of check and checkmate, and ends when a player captures the opposing king.
I have given a description of duck chess to many humans (yes, I love duck chess!) who are usually much worse than ChatGPT at regular chess. When these humans play duck chess for the first time, they intuit some basic principles: use the duck to block natural developing moves for your opponent in the opening; you can often capture a defended piece without consequence by placing the duck between your capturing piece and the defender; if you want the duck to not be on a certain square for your next move, then put it on that square after your own move, since your opponent is obligated to move it; and so on.
GPT-4 meanwhile utterly fails to play the game. More often than not, it will try something illegal: putting the duck on an occupied square, passing a piece through the duck as though it weren’t there, or attempting to capture the duck after being told that’s not possible. When it does play legal moves, the duck placement is nonsensical. When asked why it placed the duck where it did, it betrays a lack of basic understanding of the rules. Its explanations tend to forget that its opponent gets to move the duck themself after their move.
This is where the “but humans make mistakes too!” arguments break down. No human who can play regular chess at the level of GPT-4 would continually struggle to make legal moves in duck chess. 99.999% of them would make better moves than GPT-4.
To me, this supports the idea that GPT-4 is great at finding and exploiting patterns that it has seen millions of times in the training set. When you veer off the training data (and your problem isn’t a trivial interpolation of related concepts that are in the training data) it seems to fall apart completely.
As one more example, GPT-4 contains some very basic facts about the game Arimaa, an abstract strategy game like chess. It can recite the rules perfectly. But I can’t play Arimaa with GPT-4 because it fails on the very first step: choosing how to arrange your pieces. I once exhausted all 25 of my messages trying to get it to make a legal configuration of its pieces to start the game, to no avail.
That's from the humans who generated the original text that GPT4 is essentially mining.
Furthermore, until you have a concrete definition of exactly what intelligence is, then the question (and answer) don't mean much.
Climate change is some real shit.
It is overly optimistic, and does make mistakes, but it certainly shows intelligent behaviour.
Don’t get me wrong: the new large models are amazing, and will be useful. Not dissing them. Just observing the history of the term ‘AI’ in popular usage.
Considering it is ridiculously impractical to use ChatGPT in many areas where 1980s AI techniques are in use (think metaheuristics, chess, etc.), I suspect this is rather common.
Sure, we can also associate supply chain and logistics bin packing, inventory forecasting, existing warehouse automation--including computer vision and such.
But once you get to NLP, deep learning, and LLM, doesn't it kind of go off the rails?
Lather, rinse, repeat.
I think this observation held up well until AlphaGo hit the scene. Then it started to sound a bit less insightful. At this point, it's just whistling past the proverbial graveyard.
I come from big ag country. We used the term AI in regards to a breeding method. Seeing "AI" in all these headlines still gives me a chuckle.
How is that not intelligence?
The phrase “artificial intelligence” is the same here. You may still die on this hill, but the world has moved on. AI has become overloaded to mean a wide variety of things and not just the “dangerous” generalized terminator robot you’re envisioning.
One strategy to cope is to come up with a new word and define it as you’d like, being careful to not overload it.
First, we would have to define the concept of intelligence.
> There’s just too much attention that comes with saying the term “A.I.” for anyone to stop now. ChatGPT isn’t the only part of the A.I. boom that sometimes just makes stuff up.
This is absolutely the case.
P.S. what is a "threadbois"?
For "threadboi", here's a good explanation https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=threadboi
This plus the Fermi paradox gives me the creeps.
It raises the uncomfortable question of "free will".