The New York hotel destination fee scam (2020)
travelforaliving.co.uk
travelforaliving.co.uk
My feeling is that the travel search engines should define a standard for a certain category of travel, and then show the price that achieves that standard. That this hasn't happened shows a sort of industry capture or lack of competition, IMO.
If a hotel is said to be 4-stars, then amenities like WiFi, gym, and pool access should be included in the rate. If they have a resort fee, that should be included on the search engine.
For airfare, economy class should have a reserved seat, printed ticket, with X inches of legroom, Y inches of width, 1 standard carry-on, 1 check-in bag, a soft drink and crunchy snack of your choice for short flights, and a meal at 4+ hours. Whatever price that ends up being is what is shown on the search engine. If it requires "economy plus" to achieve that level of service, then that's what you get if you search for "economy" class fares.
Let the search engine have a "steerage" search class for the 2-star hotel experience at a 4-star hotel, and the "water costs extra" economy airlines.
What riles me up is when airlines intentionally provide a shitty experience when you're not willing to pay the higher price. To me, as a status flyer this is s form of blackmail and I'm not willing to play.
Their error of thinking (looking at you, Lufthansa Group, but others likely pull the exact same shit) is that I don't only buy cheap flights, but will sometimes splurge for a business ticket in long distance.
Just this February my business went to the Omanis (which also offer the better product).
Being treated like shit on short distance flights was not the only reason, but certainly a factor.
For example, budget flights in Europe have no cabin baggage included other than a very small bag. There's enough space in the cabin, and logically the cost of adding another 10kg to each person can't be more than 10-15% of the ticket, but it's way more than that to add a normal sized bag.
So while some perks are often optional, most of the unbundling affects core features. And presumably the reason for this is so they can show up as the lowest price, get you halfway through the purchase process, and convince you to upgrade.
So happy to hear that there was competition for you to do that! The lack of it on so many routes (and the oligopoly that is domestic air travel) is the source of this whole problem. If sufficient competition exists, it puts a limit on the degree they can get away with. Without it, the blueprint is clear: Make them miserable while inventing ways to pay to escape it.
I'm saying that listing ultra-economy in the same search results as (now so-called) "premium" economy is a race to the bottom. We can stop this race if we just define a standard bundle and force competition on the basis of the bundle price.
If they could charge you extra for the privilege of taking the clothes on your back, they would. I'm surprised they aren't already charging to use seat-back entertainment (or "limited ads" seatback entertainment) or the reading lamp.
Man, I can't remember the last time I had a meal on a domestic flight. I just flew from BOS-SFO and was thrilled that JetBlue gave us unlimited snacks on the 6 hour flight. But thinking back, I realize now that cross-country flights used to always have a meal. And reasonably-sized seats.
Norwegian is the only carrier I know with optional meal service.
If you're the carrier - it's bad business to have hangry passengers.
That said, we all expect more of international flights, and this is a really disappointing data point to learn of.
Have you actually checked the price differential between coach and first class? It's like two orders of magnitude. Might be better off stopping at Mickey Dees at JFK before boarding.
- The Wi-Fi and breakfast situation is the opposite of what you describe for clear market reasons. People who go to four star hotels aren’t interested in trash continental breakfast and would rather pay for something good, and Wi-Fi costs money because business people expense it. In contrast, breakfast is included at lower tier hotels because price conscious customers shop on value.
- Flight search engines already detail important flight details like basic economy restrictions and other factors.
- People need to grow up about meals on flights. This isn’t 1960 when flights were essentially all business and first class fares adjusted for inflation. You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you. Bring an empty water bottle through TSA and fill it at the water fountain.
If the airline allows it. I've been on at least one long-haul flight (>12 hours) where they explicitly didn't.
I've had very good breakfasts at middle-tier hotels. Sometimes they were entirely free, and sometimes they would just give you $25 off or something.
> Wi-Fi costs money because business people expense it
Do hotels charge for wifi? Seems like everyone includes serviceable wifi, though some have a paid tier if you want a faster connection. I never have — is this common for people to pay for?
> You want food on your flight? Bring/buy some and take it on the plane with you
I'll remember that next time I get up for a flight at 4:30 AM, when no eateries are open. There is good food in many airports, but I can't exactly take ramen to-go. Airport food is also incredibly expensive.
Again, we don’t need to be whining about the airplane food situation. We’re all supposed to be adults here.
All sorts of food items can be taken through security. You can plan ahead and bring a sandwich or trail mix or something of that sort. You don’t need restaurants to be open to feed yourself. Maybe just eat before you get to the airport. It really isn’t hard.
40% of Americans have obesity and they’re over here acting like they’ll starve without complimentary meals on their flight. Everyone literally spends around 12 hours between dinner and breakfast without eating so I think you we can all handle a 5 hour flight without a full meal.
Something that I would argue hasn't been happening in the airline industry. Instead, cost has gone down consistently over time. (Don’t mistake ultra low cost airlines for a degradation in service, that is an entirely new product that didn’t exist previously)
I can think of ways in which airlines have actually increased level of service/value/reduced fees recently. For example, American Airlines eliminated change fees.
What about second breakfast?
It's not a dark pattern, it's simply a crime in many jurisdictions.
My grandfather was an inspector for the fraud and safety administration in the 1970s in France, and he would regularly fine businesses that would hide fees from their advertised prices. Restaurants used to be the worst offenders, but a long time ago a law was passed such that they are obligated to exhaustively list their price at the entrance and specify that it's all included. It's rather surprising to me that this kind of practice is still allowed nowadays in the US, and that it's in fact getting worse.
I've traveled a lot, I've never once got my money's worth out of a resort fee. At least in Las Vegas there's a way to decline it, but they just won't let you connect to the WiFi from the room. If you're in Vegas for anything other than a business trip, you're probably not going to be spending much time on WiFi anyway, and I have unlimited 5G data on my mobile phone + tethering. It's absolutely a scam, and it's ridiculous you get taxed on paying bullshit fees, it's just a way for the government to scam you too at the same time they give businesses a pass for scamming you with bullshit fees.
The resort fee basically covers access to specific amenities (theoretically), if you decline it you will be giving up access to those amenities, that are otherwise not "free". YMMV.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g45963-i10-k8695916-Is...
Specific policy: https://www.mgmresorts.com/en/mgm-rewards/daily-resort-fee-w...
A lawsuit that specifics names them as mandatory: https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/mgm-re...
When was the last time this supposedly worked? These are posts from seven years ago...
I've never encountered crap like this in Europe or Asia.
The worst I encountered, in Penang, was that VAT was not included and charged extra.
City tax may also be charged seperately, but we're talking 2-5 Euro per person / night. Shit, like charging an additional 50$ per night for nothing, just because they can just doesn't happen.
Not at all. I saw this several years ago on a business trip in the UK at the preferred hotel as selected by my employer where on top of the higher than public rate there were fees for wifi and other services I'd consider basic at a Marriott Courtyard.
While you practically never see fees for Wifi nowadays it used to be quite common 10 years ago. Mostly in upscale hotels.
The significant difference to a resort fee is that you didn't have to pay if you didn't want to use it.
I don't have a problem with a hotel charging for the spa or the gym.
What I do have a problem with if they charge for such features regardless if I use them.
And that's the problem with resort fees.
I used to be an elite member at their hotels and they've now lost all my business for it, which obviously isn't important to them because they didn't even respond to the email I sent them complaining. They must be making enough scamming people this way that they don't care.
Personally I'm not very price sensitive, I'm happy to pay to get my preference. But I'm very sensitive to getting ripped off. If someone wants to charge me a certain price, they better bake it into the up front cost. If they lie to me and make me pay more later, it's literally theft and I'm not giving business to criminals, like Fairmont.
All that said, the airline industry used to have a much bigger problem with lying about the up front price and then adding in a bunch of extra fees when you pay. But ~20 years ago now I think there was some legislation, at least where I am, that required them to advertise the real price. The same should apply to hotels.
Airlines do it too. There are "fuel surcharges" and other fees that aren't really fees. It's just a way to make the ticket appear cheaper.
Uber got in trouble some years ago by adding a "safety fee" to their fares. What did this buy? Absolutely nothing. They just pocketed it.
And of course concerts are a big one for added on fees that may well double the price (or more).
And let's not get started on AirBnB and their "cleaning fees".
I hate this crap. The only price you should be able to quote is the all-inclusive price. And mandatory fees should be part of that price. It should be illegal (ie false advertising) to do otherwise. It just goes to show how feckless the FTC is.
Hell, a lot of these companies (even ISPs) tried to avoid the bad blood around things like this by actually listing them as taxes, until they were told they could not call anything a 'tax' that wasn't actually required by and paid to a government entity.
I think this might be due to EU legislation requiring that. Maybe time for the US to crack down on it in a similar way.
at least airbnb lets you see it in the total price now. used that heavily last time I was travelling
At least Marriott will start displaying them in the booking process: https://onemileatatime.com/news/marriott-display-rates-trans...
I'm glad bills for the Junk Fees Prevention Act, which would address this, were introduced in March/April, but they haven't had any movement since. It's sad when stuff like this, which would appeal to any American that doesn't own a hotel can't get passed probably because people who do own hotels just have that much more political power...
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/916
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2463
Although I remember at least 10 years ago staying in a few hotels which advertised in small print something like "A copy of the Chicago Tribune will be provided to you. If you do not want it, notify the front desk and we will credit 50 cents each day off your bill."
> On September 3, 1988, the New York Times published an article titled “Hotels, Like the Airlines, Offer Discounts.” That article referenced a new “sophisticated computer technique known as yield management” ... In 1994, Sheryl Kimes of Cornell University, another early pioneer in the field, conducted research on consumer reactions to demand-based pricing practices, indicating that consumers were more accepting of those practices by airlines than by hotels. By 2001, Kimes’ follow-up research confirmed that there was no perceived difference between the two. Dynamic pricing was here to stay.
(part of which will no doubt be spent on made-up lawsuits by the businesses involved)