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I tried TikTok for a few hours.

It became clear really quickly that they have completely disrupted instagram and snap. The UX is much more communal and interactive than either of those, the algorithm lands you on your interests faster, and they have massively reduced the friction around becoming a content creator rather than just a consumer - so there's simply more STUFF there. The videos are more ephemeral and imperfect than what you usually see on IG, and there's a lot more joy in what's being captured. It really is a step change in the ability to build communities around shared interests.

Behind the scenes, it's a privacy nightmare and I understand the national security concerns that go with PRC tapping directly into the id of our electorate. I think PRC is much more skilled and subtle about online manipulation than Russia is. (I was working on media monitoring when social media became strangely fixated on trade deals for just long enough to get US involvement in TPP killed - a framework that was only significantly different from other trade deals in that it would sideline PRC. Once both candidates came out against it, popular concern over trade deal nuances disappeared and never returned)

But the hysteria is driven just as much by SV tech knowing that they've been lapped and finding common ground with congress for purely anti-competitive reasons, as it is by the government trying to thread the needle between free speech and ceding ground to adversary information ops.

> The videos are more ephemeral and imperfect than what you usually see on IG, and there's a lot more joy in what's being captured. It really is a step change in the ability to build communities around shared interests.

... so far. But with any technology it seems that, once the attention goes towards something, money and polish and 'Moloch' take over and the magic of amateurs and the joy of discovery are lessened. Perhaps TikTok will be different, however! It's not inevitable, but just a trend I've noticed.

To be fair TikTok has been in the mainstream for a couple of years (if not more), and still gives that feeling. A lot around that seems to be due to the algorithm doing a better job of sharing non-high profile accounts (seeding videos with a few hundred views, even if the account is new).

The polish/money/influencers are there, but seems to coexist/not take over better.

Definitely been a trend that professional content creation outperforms once the pros figure out how to game the algorithm. TikTok seems pretty resistant, both culturally and technologically. The shelf life of any one piece of content is so short that it might not be economical to invest too much in it. Instead you get a lot of fake amateur content, which is at least amusing.

Even if you think HN and Tiktok are similar in content, your point here totally glosses over that one is a small community of people working on startups and is not monetized and does not employ a variety of psychological tools to keep you engaged (it actually has anti-engagement features!) and the other is an enormous, psychologically abusive, basically state-affiliated monetization machine that also collects a shit ton of data on a much larger group of people!

Like I get it, you like TikTok, but don't pretend that the quality of the content is the thing under discussion here. That is a really weird thing to do.

Hehe.

I was on HN when it was around 50 users total. That was day two, just after pg made it public. That was small, and yo8 felt like you knew everyone.

That feeling lasted for a couple years. But inevitably it went away. I didn’t mean the “hehe” against you, but rather a “I wish HN was small.” It was a magical era.

Believe it or not, you are precisely as hypnotized by HN as you feel I am about TikTok. They’re both wonderfully entertaining titans.

Again, extremely weird rhetoric. Even at its current size, Hackernews is orders of magnitude smaller and radically different economically, socially and politically. It is absolutely bizarre to compare the two in terms of content in the context of a discussion explicitly about TikTok's relationship with political and economic forces.

So what? What’s wrong with being a little weird, eh? All the best people are weirdos.

If the idea that there are similarities is so unbelievable to you, then so be it. It says a lot more about you than about the comparison.

Ah, there I go, letting the angry replies drag down my quality. Let’s see, what would pg say…

It may feel surprising that there could be similarities. But it’s not as unlikely as you might think. It does however require an open mind, and a willingness to set aside the anger.

If you’re determined to hate it, no words will change your mind.

I mean weird as a polite way of saying apparently disingenuous. Your comments seem designed to deflect and divert the discussion away from its most salient points and into an arena which discussion is pointless (anyone can like any content they like, after all, no one could possibly dispute your interest in TikTok or that other people might find it interesting too). I feel relatively confident in suggesting that the issues the article points out are rather more important or at least important enough to warrant actual discussion.

I'm not angry about anything, nor do I dispute your thesis that from a content point of view there may be similarities. I just raise the question of how that contributes to a genuinely useful discussion about the sociopolitical implications of the app.

Ah, I see where we’re talking past one another. Yes, you’re right. My goal was to explicitly set aside the sociopolitical implications. Why?

Because there’s never any opportunity to talk about anything else on HN. One hundred percent of the time, it’s a big discussion about the political implications of TikTok. The only time it shows up here is when it’s done something newsworthy, and people are (rightly) upset or scared about it.

The missing context here is that top level comments aren’t required to be “on topic” in the sense you’re saying. Quite the opposite; as dang says, HN is consistently contrarian.

All I can say is that I’m never contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. That’d be lame, as well as boring. I’ve been a TikTok user for over three years now. This is simply a glimpse into that world — or at least, my poor attempt at giving one.

> My goal was to explicitly set aside the sociopolitical implications. Why? … Because there’s never any opportunity to talk about anything else on HN. One hundred percent of the time, it’s a big discussion about the political implications of TikTok.

I’d argue that “setting aside” the implications is a form of wishful thinking.

Everything you pointed out can be pointed out without discarding the implications or implying that having a stance regarding the risks is somehow equivalent to wishing HN would be banned.

TikTok is primarily an interesting topic here because of those implications and because many folks are quite willing to pretend the problem doesn’t exist as long as they get their dopamine hit.

But it is completely compatible with this reality to point out that the content can be joyful to experience, while acknowledging that the context of that experience is a serious issue.

And if TikTok is banned, people won’t stop creating the kinds of content found there. It’ll just move to the next big thing.

I hold no hatred for TikTok, but I don’t get your argument at all.

You’re comparing TikTok and HN in terms of entertainment value.

Parent comment is highlighting that there are more factors to consider if you want to seriously compare the two.

Wanting TikTok gone is not like wanting HN gone, unless you believe that the only thing that matters about TikTok is its entertainment value.

The entertainment value is what makes it a valuable strategic asset to the PRC. But judging it only on that entertainment value is the kind of logic that leads to acceptance of bills like the EARN IT act.

The underlying details matter, not just the entertainment value or supposed safety claims.

Entertainment value is the only thing that makes HN valuable to YC. Admitting that to yourself is important; I wasn’t able to set aside my feelings of “the community is gone” until realizing that it’s just a different kind of community. One that seeks a certain flavor of entertainment.

You keep coming back because HN makes you feel good. It’s both as simple and as complex as that.

EDIT: This topic is much more nuanced than my comment here. Entertainment doesn’t imply that it’s somehow a lesser endeavor. But if Dan stopped entertaining the community, it would fall apart. It’s a necessary step in order to get to the most gratifying aspects of HN, and it’s why incendiary topics are so tricky.

I think most people would agree that Reddit is less entertaining than HN. Entertainment doesn’t mean cheesy. I wouldn’t find most political discussions very entertaining, whereas someone explaining how they hunted down a subtle bug is one of the most entertaining types of comments.

The best commenters here “play for the audience” the same way street performers play for the crowd. It’s all about skill. And if it’s skill-based rather than something random, you’ll have to admit that there’s a target to aim for.

That target is “be entertaining.” It’s called intellectual gratification in the rules, but fundamentally, you come to HN instead of Reddit because you’re entertained here, not there.

It’s my job to write substantive comments here. And it’s one I do happily, because I get so much out of it in return. But I have to be keenly aware of whether you, the audience, are getting something out of it too. That’s the essence of being entertaining.

My point here was that TikTok is gratifying in addition to “entertaining,” in many of the same ways that HN is. This was shocking, since I was expecting something horrible when I tried it out. It’s quite the opposite; you just have to look past the horrors for the gems.

Think of it like being trapped on https://news.ycombinator.com/newest, except sometimes you get the front page, and occasionally you get /highlights. You’d think you were alternating between something apocalyptic, something great, and something astounding.

TikTok’s algorithm achieves that, somehow. I’ve curated almost 3,000 videos. Actually, I just checked: 4,644.

As an accomplished contributor to ML and a long time community member, trust me when I say that I wouldn’t do it unless there was something valuable there. I’d lose interest, just as you would in Reddit’s /r/politics.

Again, you're focusing on entertainment and ignoring other factors. I never claimed HN is not entertaining.

Simply put: HN is not a national security threat, and TikTok is. This statement is compatible with acknowledging that both provide value (of the entertainment sort and otherwise).

But when evaluating the risk associated with each platform, one is clearly in a category that the other is not.

Guns can be very entertaining. Learning to shoot and honing one's skills can be an enjoyable and rewarding experience. People do it because it makes them feel good. It's as simple and as complex as that.

But if you were to evaluate the risks of using guns as entertainment, you could not conclude that guns are no different than guitars. Both can be used to satisfy deeply human desires to learn a skill and entertain oneself. But there is an appropriate difference in policy when it comes to the requirements imposed on a gun buyers vs. guitar shoppers.

I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally, but you continue to ignore and sidestep the nuance that I and others have tried to reintroduce.

Let me ask you this: is there something that would have to happen for you to change your opinion about TikTok? If we learned tomorrow that it has actively been used to manipulate the mental health of teens and could be causally linked to suicides, does the overall entertainment value make that not matter?

Where's the line that you won't cross?

> Hackernews is orders of magnitude smaller and radically different economically, socially and politically.

This presupposes and operates as though TikTok isn't an enormous collection of tiny niches. Many parts of TikTok are exactly like tiny subreddits where everyone or most people know each other.

Equally, some places on TikTok have a whole lot of people, like the front page of Reddit.

HN is somewhere larger than small reddit and smaller than big reddit.

Welcome original HN crue. What was life like back then? Were the discussions like compared to today?

We've all had that feeling where we start off in a smaller group and as the place gets more popular you lose that original feeling. Not sure if HN today is comparable to Tiktok for many reasons: because this site hasn't really changed technology wise, controlled by another government superpower.

I’ve wanted to write about this for years. Someday I’ll do it justice.

Let me edit this comment with one particular example. One moment…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1511104

That thread is one of the most vivid examples of the difference of then vs now. But looking back on it, the delta isn’t as large as one might think. I was going to write “Imagine Dan giving an answer like that to the community unprompted,” and then realized that he has, many times now. He’s done a tremendous job preserving the spirit that pg imbued into HN.

The thread is nostalgic for other reasons too. Aaron Swartz gave a candid answer that stuck with me, and turned out to be really prescient for my life.

Sounds terrible, swiping through memes rapid fire until I find something that hooks me is textbook addictive behavior and I know it will lead me to have poor focus and anxiety in other parts of life.

The videos where you "learn" something are extra insidious because they convince you that it is a positive use of your time. The reality is you will forget 90% of it, it is formatted to be entertaining and not educational, and many are outright BS.

And yet, you swipe through 30 HN stories a day. The insidious part is that you think it’s a positive use of your time, or that you learn anything. You’ll forget most of it, and ultimately it’s just entertainment.

If you’re quick to point out all the reasons I’m mistaken, well… take all of those reasons, put them in a paint bucket labeled “tiktok”, and give it a stir till you can’t see the difference. Because as a three year TikTok user, I can’t.

We’re all addicts. It’s a matter of choosing your addictions wisely, and not letting their downsides outweigh their merits. Discipline tends to be the cure, though that never works for me; the only way out is to find a fascinating problem to go work on.

Make no mistake: the average TikTok viewer is a lot closer to the average HN reader in terms of addictive behaviors than we’d care to admit. All of the reasons you keep coming back are addictions in disguise. And if this argument sounds out of place, there’s a way out: it’s fine to be addicted to learning new things.

I refuse to believe you can't tell the difference between TikTok and HN. Just take your argument all the way and say that reading a book is the same thing as using TikTok.

Hard Disagree.

Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35837751 upthread. I wanted to give you a solid reply to this, so I put a lot of effort into it. Perhaps it’s still insufficient, but it’s closer.

"you swipe through 30 HN stories a day"

I don't know who does that. I look at titles and decide which ones I want to look at. With tiktok, you don't know what's coming next, and normally it takes you at least one or two seconds to know if it's a video you want to watch. Also TikTok content is personalized and there is no end blah blah. It's designed to make you addicted.

By the way I have read a lot of interesting/helpful articles on HN, many of which are not easy read. Many people would agree with me. Also I have read a lot of articles with a critical eye and left critical comments (like this one), never did that on TikTok.

These are just some basic rebukes of your comment. I can go on and on. I think the difference between TikTok and HN is very clear. Not saying TikTok is better than HN, they are different products, but it's very disingenuous to draw parallels between them.

> Not saying TikTok is better than HN

I'll say the opposite, and boldly. With HN, I can quickly scan 90 headlines where 50% of them are tech related and the other half, at least smart people find them interesting or something.

Imagine following a video for a recipe that you can't rewind...

I don't hate tiktok. I don't hate it's business model or the product, per se. I just don't trust any company with strong ties to China and the CCP. When a company has those ties it changes from a question of whether you trust the company to whether you trust the CCP. And I most emphatically do not trust the CCP. The intentions and desires of the people running the company are irrelevant. The CCP has absolutely no problems violating those intentions or desires. There is no world where you can live in relationship to the CCP and not have your reputation permanently entangled with theirs.

If HN was controlled by the CCP I would have the exact same concerns and wouldn't be using the platform. The CCP doesn't care how useful, delightful, unique, or wonderful your product is. They only care about whether they can leverage it usefully in some way.

I don't use TikTok but I don't know why this is being downvoted. It seems reasonable to hear from people in order to understand the reason an app is popular.

There is nothing downvote-worthy about this comment. I really appreciated reading this perspective, since pretty much all I ever hear are the reasons TikTok is bad.

I was surprised too. But incendiary topics are often that way. All one can do is to try to be substantive and hope for the best.

Thank you for sticking up for me, but remember: our goal here is to write comments interesting to read. As much as I appreciate it, complaints about downvotes never do any good. They just stoke the fire.

Have a wonderful weekend, wherever you are. Cheers.

The framing was not great. "If you hate tik tok, just know that it has only wonderful qualities that are impossible to hate." You might as well be arguing that nobody should hate chocolate ice cream.

---

If you hate chocolate ice cream, I get you. Just know that chocolate ice cream is one of the most popular ice cream flavors in the world, and for good reason. It's creamy, delicious, and versatile. But why is chocolate ice cream so good?

Here are a few reasons:

- Chocolate is a natural mood enhancer. Chocolate contains a compound called phenylethylamine, which is a stimulant that can boost your mood and make you feel happy.

- Chocolate is a source of antioxidants. Antioxidants are substances that help protect your cells from damage. Dark chocolate is a particularly good source of antioxidants.

- Chocolate is a source of calcium. Calcium is an important mineral for strong bones and teeth.

- Chocolate is a source of protein. Protein is essential for building and repairing tissues.

- Chocolate is a source of fiber. Fiber is important for digestive health.

In addition to all of these health benefits, chocolate ice cream is simply delicious. It's the perfect treat to enjoy on a hot day or to satisfy a sweet tooth. So next time you're in the mood for something sweet, reach for a bowl of chocolate ice cream. You won't be disappointed.

So what are you waiting for? Go out and buy a tub of chocolate ice cream today!

The fact that people feel TikTok is a bucket of chocolate ice cream was precisely why I spoke up. It’s a label that feels as out of place as calling HN a basket of Twinkies.

There’s a grain of truth to it. Both are addictive. HN does it so well that the psychological aspects are almost invisible, but they’re there. That karma counter in the upper right is suspiciously impossible to ignore.

Does that erase HN’s merits? I don’t think so.

> Both are addictive.

If this is your takeaway then I picked the wrong metaphor. My intent was highlight that people have baseline preferences, but the post engages in arguing that their tastes are somehow _logically wrong_. I thought chocolate ice cream would be the least objectionable taste but I guess leave it to HN to find a way =)

It's being downvoted because it has no place in a discussion around TikTok surveilling journalists and people that give negative PR to the company. Extolling the virtues of TikTok in a thread like this is like saying 'Well, Nestle's chocolate is actually delicious don't you think?' in a discussion around Nestle using slave and child labour to create their chocolate products.

It will only cost you the entirety of your online privacy, but you're telling us it's worth it?

Google and Apple already have a huge amount of info on me that is almost certainly being shared with the US government. What's the diff between that and TikTok sharing my info with China?

Fewer leaks are always better than more.

I understand what you're saying though. But I think the answer should be to work harder at blocking Google and Apple, rather than capitulating to <new thing>.

I’m good, thanks.

No. Comparing TikTok to HN is flatly wrong.

TikTok isn't actually going to be banned.

What is going to happen, is that even if a ban goes through, they will end up just selling the US/international app to a US company, then that company will be completely separated from bytedance.

This almost happened during the Trump administration.

And this would be a positive result. We get to keep TikTok, and all it's "benefits", while the national security concerns are solved because it would be US owned, and no longer beholden to a foreign adversary.