The Framework Laptop 13 | Hacker News Reader

The Framework Laptop 13

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There's a "Ryzen AI" on these AMD cores that is really a modest sized fpga, supposedly. Linux has been landing some support for interfacing with this- calling it XDNA (on a new "CDX" bus) - but no signs yet that users can program it.

Would be a fun thing to get exposed to users. Fingers crossed that actually happens; I could definitely see this being very vendored up, that it ends up only really running a couple predefined ML workloads.

This makes a lot of sense, I was just waiting for their acquisition of Xilinx to materialize in their consumer products in some way. This seems a great way to unlock e.g. some ML potential. The possibilities seem endless.

I think AMD already acquired Xilinx?

Yes. But the question remains of when & how we see Xilinx technologies/capabilities boost AMD's core businesses.

Exactly. Just like we can see Nvidia’s acquisition of Mellanox starting to make sense now that we see Nvidia shipping entire clusters of hundreds or thousands of GPUs connected through InfiniBand, I’m waiting for what AMD’s acquisition of Xilinx has to offer.

You're already seeing it. Xilinx led the industry in chip interconnect technology, SERDES, MCMs, die stacking... they've been making chiplet designs since 2011. They were the ones inventing all the interconnect and packaging technology AMD is using in Zen, Epyc, and now Radeon products.

This sketchy-looking link is a marketing slide for Xilinx chip-to-chip interconnect tech from 2019. It's illustrative of the kind of IP AMD was shopping for. https://146a55aca6f00848c565-a7635525d40ac1c70300198708936b4...

Having fpgas on-board feels like something that would have been a game-changer even pre-ai. Imagine if your Ryzen chip could do hardware encode/decode of h266 the moment the spec was finalized.

I can't find evidence it really made it out to consumers, & even less evidence there was any followup, but Intel did have a Xeon + Arria 10 GX FPGA chip, back in 2018: Xeon Gold 6138P with Arria 10 FPGA. https://www.anandtech.com/show/12773/intel-shows-xeon-scalab...

At the hyperscaler level there's been a lot of adoption of SmartNICs, which are often FPGA based. That makes me feel like there's a pretty big market here already for integrated FPGAs. I think the other requirement is that these FPGAs need to be made broadly available if we're going to see a real shift. Selling a couple many-thousand-dollar high end chips isn't going to create new audiences clamboring for these things, which is required for the tech to actually get interesting & well adopted, instead of existing only in a small but important niche.

Follow-on question, what makes FPGAs so dang expensive?

Size, speed, features. You can have a small FPGA for about 2$. You will however be limited in the complexity of the design you can implement because it has limited gates and pins. And limited speed. Like normal processors if you want faster, bigger and more features the cost shoots up. Combine that with the limited market for big FPGA's and they can be very high in price. Mind you that many also have things like a multi core ARM processor on board since many designs need a processor to control the circuit. Same with many interfaces. Would be a shame to use the limited gates in the FPGA for standard things like that.

Large die area and low production volumes.

Bunnie Huang already built himself a laptop with on-board FPGA back in 2012.

[1] https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2686

[2] https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3597

Source (CES 2023): https://www.youtube.com/live/OMxU4BDIm4M?feature=share&t=137...

Textual rehash: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-brings-chiplets-zen-4-...

Keep an eye on the ONNX runtime[0]. Microsoft has gotten all sorts of weird AI accelerators to work, from OpenVINO to the Rockchip NPU.

[0] https://onnxruntime.ai/

Am I reading this right?

* There's a decent built-in gpu

* Or I can plug an external gpu into the back

* Or I can rip out the mainboard on an old Framework and pop this one in

* Or I can pop this mainboard into a Cooler Master case or some rando 3D printed case and have a PC which can sit on my desktop, underneath my TV, etc. (Granted this thing probably won't have the horsepower of a real desktop but for a lot of workloads it's probably be fine)

The original Framework had a great philosophy with limited execution. This seems like a whole new level of utility, and perhaps just the beginning of what an ecosystem built around the Framework could become. The question you usually have to ask about any product is why would I buy this? But in this case I'm struggling to come up with good reasons NOT to buy. I already have a laptop, a desktop, and a living room PC. If I can potentially refresh the Framework to fulfill ANY of those roles what excuse do I have to not to own one?

Yes, decent iGPU. But no on an external GPU in the back since this is for the 13" which has no modular bay for internal GPU (They mean a USB4 -> PCIe dock for the external GPU).

There IS a 16" coming that will let you plugin a dedicated GPU.

I will probably order this (or it's next version) one for my machine in 18 - 30 months since mine is only ~6 months old.

edit: and apologies if I mis-understood or am being pedantic

You can plug in an eGPU with this.

From the post:

> If you want to use an eGPU, you can do that too! This is because the Framework Laptop 13 with Ryzen™ 7040 Series processors has two fully capable USB4 ports, with the back left and back right Expansion Cards slots.

Right, that's exactly what they said

> no on an external GPU in the back since this is for the 13" which has no modular bay for internal GPU (They mean a USB4 -> PCIe dock for the external GPU).

Unless the Mobo doesn't support it, you should be able to use external GPU's even with Ryzen

> If you're upgrading your Framework Laptop to the new Mainboard, remember that you'll need ... a Ryzen-compatible RZ616 or similar WiFi card.

Why does WiFi card need to be "compatible" with CPU? Isn't it enough to be compatible with PCI-Express? Or are there backdoors that do not work with Intel-backdoor-compatible WiFi cards?

The Framework wifi card for Intel is an AX201 implementation, which means the only thing on the card is the RF and the rest of the wireless functions are in the Intel SoC. You can't use an AX201 with anything but an Intel platform because of CNVi.

Huh really? I put an AX210 wifi 6E card in my absolutely ancient Intel i7-2600 Optiplex and it works great.

Yes, really. Cnvi cards only work on recent Intel cpus and they’re a tad cheaper.

The problem is not Intel branded cards. Your card (ending with 0) is non-cnvi. Try an AX211 and it won’t work.

As I understand it, the AX2X0 cards will work with any CPU, while the AX2X1 cards need CNVi support (so a newer intel SoC)

Luckily I ordered the AX210 over the AX211 because the AX210 was cheaper. :P

Reading intel ark, it seem to me that the AX210 is a fully fledged device that can be used with every SoC [0] while the AX201 relies on CNVi [1].

So both can be true at the same time: your AX210 works fine with the i7-2600, while the AX201 would not.

Thanks for those product names Intel. Very helpful!

0: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/204836/... 1: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/130293/...

The modern/hardware equivalent of a WinModem.

Oh man. I completely and I mean completely forgot about the Winmodem.

A good quip but an imperfect analogy. As WinModem victims may remember, the WinModem DSP was in software. No part of a CNVi radio is in software. It is only a question as to which circuit board contains which parts of the wireless stack.

Still, it seems like it is a kind of lock-in (intel only), to save 10 cents or something. What's expensive about standalone wifi?

“inModem” then, because it’s Intel that needs to supply the brains rather than windows

OP did say hardware equivalent

We've used the Intel AX210 on everything except the original 11th Gen pre-built systems which use AX201 and the Chromebook Edition, which uses AX211.

AX210 on Ryzen is a YMMV situation. Neither Intel nor AMD will provide any guidance or support around the combination, and we don't have access to any of the needed source to resolve issues as they come up.

I've been using an AX210 on a Ryzen based laptop since early 2022.

I initially had issues with it causing the laptop to lockup hard, if iwlwifi module (AX210 driver) was loaded, on resume from suspend to disk. It was easy to work around using a hook script to down the interface and unload the module before suspend, and reload + up interface if it had been up at time of suspend. S3 suspend to ram / resume worked fine without the hack.

Currently 6.1 kernel (Debian testing). When I initially put the work around in place it was IIRC 5.6 kernel, so maybe not an issue anymore, but haven't bothered checking to see.

I only bought an Intel AX210 because it was cheapest tri-band card. The Intel card is pretty gimped (broken AP modes, breakage due to issues "magically" determining regulatory domain, Intel removed functionality in recent driver versions that could somewhat work around the first two issues so now impossible to mitigate, etc.). I would probably try a Mediatek card, if doing this today (in spite of my general policy of avoiding Mediatek). Last I checked, the equivalent Atheros chipset still had poor free driver support?!

"It was easy..." - that doesn't sound that easy to me. I've honestly never had to do something like that to get linux working. Or maybe I'm too lazy and tried to work around things like that.

You just drop a script into a "special" directory, and the scripts are run in alphabetical order with arguments that tell them if they are being called for a suspend or resume, and the type of suspend. Non-systemd, it is part of the acpi stuff. Systemd has its own special dir '/usr/lib/systemd/system-sleep' (there is no equivalent under /etc; and creating one yourself will not work). I don't recall the directory the acpi hook scripts used (it has been a while... ?something like /etc/acpid/hooks.d?), but it worked pretty much the same way. Supposedly you can use systemd targets to accomplish the same, but when I tried that, it was very unreliable-- apparently unreliable for others too since the special systemd dir exists, and the distribution is using it for its own hooks (Poettering has said it might go away at some point, though :/).

The original dumb version (written in anger, after the first time the laptop crashed on resume post installing the Intel card, and a bit of testing to isolate it to the iwlwifi module) was just a few lines-- literally a couple minutes to write. It has grown since to about 10X the size to handle some details specific to my network setup more intelligently.

This is good info.

It would be nicer if they rephrased it "non-intel locked" to properly assign blame for the lack of modularity. This isn't a Ryzen thing.

Are there any technical advantages to doing that? I guess it makes the wifi chipset cheaper to manufacture, but wouldn't it increase the cost of the CPU?

I think it's part of the intel management system.

I've been waiting for this machine for so long, excited to see the actual CPU unveil. I may be out of date, but is the issue with not entering sleep mode properly resolved? That's a huge issue to me.

Aside from Framework, does anyone suggest any other existing laptops that keep a fairly slim design while also offering lots of user repairability? I've had an okay experience with my Thinkpad X1 Carbon Gen 3, but she's getting old, especially now that everything depends on video transcoding that it doesn't support at the hardware level.

Apparently with the Ryzen processor, the slots are limited: "The Framework Laptop 13 with Ryzen™ 7040 Series processors has two fully capable USB4 ports, with the back left and back right Expansion Cards slots. The front left Expansion Card slot can handle both USB 3.2 and DisplayPort Alt Mode, while the front right Expansion Card can use USB 3.2. This does mean there is one Expansion Card slot that can't support the HDMI or DisplayPort Expansion Cards, and most OS's will provide a warning if you forget. You can charge your Framework Laptop through any of the four Expansion Cards as well.".

This is borderline a deal breaker for me.

That's pretty rough, one of the great things about the Framework was being able to treat all ports the same.

Is there any explenation on why they couldn't achieve this with AMD's new chips?

I'm sure they would have supported that if they were able to.

It has to do with what the chips can support.

Compare the AMD USB channels [1] with the Intel Thunderbold channels [2]. Intel has more channels for motherboard/system manufacturers to work with.

[1] https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/ryzen-7-7840u.c3212#ga...

[2] https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/core-i7-1370p.c3055#ga...

It's such a pity AMD revolutionized bandwidth & interconnectivity on Epyc (128 lanes PCIe) , but has left consumers hanging. Threadripper HDET was 64 lanes (the Pro really was a full Epyc, 128 lanes, 8 channel memory) but now Threadripper is gone.

Meanwhile desktop & mobile have been so capped, at 20 - 24 lanes, right where we were.

The Thunderbolt 4 abilities of Intel chips is just stunning. 160Gbps of connectivity, usable for host to host connectivity... I wish AMD were trying to catch up here, wouldnt compromise their lead by being so far behind here.

What are you expecting to run off all four slots that makes that a dealbreaker?

Expect the unexpected. It doesn't have to be a rational known ask. We are Hackers. We want to be ready for whatever. That day when there's a 4 screen display wall? Ready. Connecting to a thunderbolt NAS, a display, a desktop, and our friends laptop? Ready.

"What is the use case" is the deadening soul sucking most un Hackerly thing to ask. Computers are amazing general purpose machines & we celebrate their flexible utility. We don't know where flexibility always leads but we value it. We value open systems, open possibilities, open frontiers, not being bounded.

Edit: based on the voting, I guess only some of us on HN are Hackers! I also have example use cases too, to be constructive, but guess that's not enough for the cynics.

A "hacker" is someone who makes something do what it wasn't intended to do. Plugging a high-end laptop into the correct number of monitors is not hacking.

Maybe stick to Intel chipsets if you must have 4 screens. Or maybe cover over the 4th port, and pretend you have 3 fully-functional ports?

That's a pretty good definition. It think there's more an element of being able to pull off the not forseen. A good code hacker isn't exactly defying computer architecture to extract their wins; they're finding brilliant solutions & cobbling together interesting systems that happen to meet the needs.

I think AMD needs the pressure. 4x Thunderbolt 4 is amazing. AMD offering 2x USB 4 is such a massive downgrade. Just a shake of the head & saying "go buy Intel" as if this is some natural expected unnoteworthy situation doesn't cut it for me.

IIRC, USB4 Full is pretty much TB3 plus some extensions... So probably shouldn't really be a deal breaker. You can still use a TB dock and an eGPU. USB4 can support 20-40gbps, TB3 is 16, and TB4 is 36.

Not quite. USB4 is based on TB3, but interoperability with Thunderbolt 3 is optional for hosts and devices. You could use any TB4 dock and USB4 dock that have USB4 upstream ports.

40gbps, 20 gbps (in 3.2 mode), PCI-E are all optional for host.

It's a mess, but I assume "fully capable USB4 ports" means that they are indeed fully capable. 2 "full" USB4 ports imo enough. I'm not plugging 4 monitors into my laptop directly, that's what the dock is for.

That's what I meant by "full" USB4... in that you get TB compatibility and higher speed... One third port on one side also has displayport mode over usb or can use an hdmi adapter on that port. Only 1 isn't capable of display out, and 2 are capable of high speed connections (external gpu or dock).

In the end, I do think the connectivity, while less than the Intel option, is probably enough for most people for most uses. I honestly don't use my personal laptop much and my work laptop is pretty much always docked to my TB3 dock at my work desk.

"Why?" is a very properly hackerly question.

Agreed. Generally best used against systems & plans. Wanting to know how something ticks.

Using it as a cudgel against open frontiers happens too. I guess it's more a disposition of the person here. Personally I find that stark conservatism to be heinously ugly.

What is sometimes a very fine question, especially if someone is struggling to get to success. Recognizing the other cases though, where there are unknowns & where we want to have Postel'lian possibilities, where we want many small pieces we can loosely couple, where we aren't just trying to make it through right now but are trying to work for longer answers... I think the "What is the use case" is often a complete rejection of open thinking, is the mind closing.

What alternative laptop do you have in mind for running a 4 screen display, that's also hackable?

Any reason why you can't hook up that 4 screen display wall and that NAS at the same time by chaining DisplayPort and/or using a USB4 hub?

To me, being hackers means finding ways of circumventing limits, rather than expecting all kinds of connectivity to just be handed to you the easiest possible way.

> Edit: based on the voting, I guess only some of us on HN are Hackers! I also have example use cases too, to be constructive, but guess that's not enough for the cynics.

What's attracting downvotes is more likely to be gatekeeping language like this.

I wasn't being super fair nor nice, but I very much felt like I was trying to combat gatekeeping. I was advocating for open & possible, against someone who was trying to shut people down.

Intel has 160 Gbps of throughput available for connectivity. You might be able to physically get data to all the same devices with AMD, but at much reduced bandwidth, and the job wont be as easy. And you won't be able to use thunderbolt peripherals like external GPUs, if those are available.

....then get the Intel processor?

Your external GPU may support USB4. Will depend on the enclosure.

> And you won't be able to use thunderbolt peripherals like external GPUs, if those are available.

USB4 is Thunderbolt and the article explicitly mentions eGPUs work.

USB4 definitely does not require PCIe transport. (it does however require DisplayPort.) Once you have usb4 though, yeah, adding PCIe shouldn't be that much more work-you've already done the hard stuff. Which is part of why I've felt so cheated, thinking AMD hasn't done PCIe in their usb4.

This is, if true, very good news.

There was no intention of gatekeeping. I was truly curious why someone would see that configuration as a deal-breaker.

The whole point of the slots is to be able to rearrange them. If such options are limited, they may as well be standard ports, which would use less space.

It basically negates a significant portion of the utility of the device.

This. Exactly this.

I’d always thought the point of the slots was to provide choice to each user to match their preference, probably at the time of the initial purchase.

Honestly, that one might want to regularly rearrange the ports hadn’t occurred to me.

It sounds like half the slots can't match the preferences of a substantial fraction of potential users?

it sounds bad

but it's pretty common in any multi USB-C port laptop

and most times the intuitive port usage will anyway be the right one

Like most external devices don't benefit in a notivable degree from USB-4 over USB-3.2. The most common exceptions are expanders, docks, monitors with integrated docks, eGPUs and similar.

But most of the you would normally anyway prefer on the back ports to get the cables out of the way.

Where the front ports are more often used for input devices, usb disks and similar. But they very very often yield the same practical performance on USB-3.2 and USB-4 (not always, but _really_ often).

So yes for some people which want 4 USB-4 port or 2 USB-4 ports and a HDMI port and a charging port and are not okay with the charging cable being on the front right port.

But the huge majority of people will not care.

And there are limitations with what the different laptop CPUs can support so it's not that they could just have magically added additional USB-4 ports or give DP support to all ports.

[corrected]

Out of date as in their understanding of the tech, not the tech itself.

Oh right, I think my dyslexia kicked in and I read "it may be out of date".

I need some rest.

The (quite cheap) Lenovo Ideapads are quite good. I've upgraded my S540 with 32 GB of RAM (instead of the base 8) myself, it can receive a second M.2 SSD, and the first one is also upgradeable.

The only small problem is with the keyboard : the most used keys are completely blank after 3 years of use :)

> The only small problem is with the keyboard : the most used keys are completely blank after 3 years of use :)

After 3 years of use you should have be used to the keymap and not have to look at the keys anyway.

Oh I don't look at the keys, but first it's ugly, and second at some point there will be holes in the key caps :)

S3 sleep isn't really supported anymore by either Intel or AMD. Both have been improving S0ix with each kernel release though. We've also made optimizations on our side around retimer/port behavior that substantially improve battery life in sleep. We'll be sharing more detail around that in the next couple of weeks.

nrp, quick note about website content. You should update the details pop-up for the Port Expansion Cards for the USB-C card. Reading the new press release, it seems that each slot is no longer equal on this main board, but on the order page, it implies that all slots are equal for the USB-C card.

I've been daily driving a 12th-gen Framework on Fedora 36/37. Sleep itself has worked flawless, although you'll get a graphics driver freeze/crash every odd resume if you don't disable "panel self refresh."[0]

I revert this setting every kernel update to see if it's fixed and have not encountered it on 6.2.12 so YMMV.

I kind of assumed this was a Linux quirk and that Windows would be fine, but I haven't tried it.

[0]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics#Screen_flick...

yes it's a know issue with the linux GPU driver for the intel integrated graphics, I think it was specific to the 12th gen or even just a subset of 12th gen but I'm not sure

11th gen doesn't have this issue, but is ...well... 11th gen if you know what I mean

I haven't been able to resolve it. My Framework is basically a desktop with a (really weak) hinge. It's the only computer I've ever had that falls all the way open if you pick it up even partially open, and the only one that won't ever actually go to sleep.

I still use it a lot. I just don't ever unplug it for more than a couple hours.

Looks like they have a better hinge that you can change out your weak hinge. https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001

Framework will mail you new hinges if you follow the support form on their website. I had this issue (as well as a warped laptop bottom), and they replaced both for free.

I got a brand new 12th gen intel Framework 13 and it still cannot enter sleep correctly. If it falls asleep due to battery, it reboots. Framework forums report tons of people with the same problem.

It's pretty annoying.

I’ll wait to see if they have proper “sleep” mode such that they don’t keep draining batter while not in use, particularly when running Linux. This is something that baffles me about non Apple Laptops how they just refuse to catch up to such a great benefit.. (alongside the trackpad experience which I can may be live with).

It might be a bit of tinkering but you can enable suspend-then-hibernate with logind/systemd which gives you a similar setup to Macbooks but slightly slower to wake from deep sleep as it needs to go through post/grub again. With the bigger battery provide and new CPU I do hope it lasts longer when idle though.

Does that require a LUKS unlock step?

I believe so, I remember an article on hibernation+luks being more difficult to set up

it mainly lacks good UI/UX tools to do so and an agreement on what the right approach is, especially if combined with raid

without raid it's not too hard, just bothersome and finding the right information can be annoying

the main gotcha is that lockdown mode is incompatible with hibernation (no matter if it's encrypted or not) and some distros enable it by default when secure boot is used, which is most times the case with a full disk encryption setup

"It might be a bit of tinkering"

Thats an understatement. I never made suspend-then-hibernate work reliable on linux and I tried it over the years on different systems. So I just had developed the habit of always entering hibernation, if I intend to close the lid for longer.

On windows suspend-then-hibernate never failed so far.

Drivers are just the crux with linux in too many cases. Not much you can do about it, except reverse engeneering drivers as a side project.

Suspend and hibernate are calls into ACPI, so no amount of driver work is going to help, when the firmware is responsible.

You can also reverse engeneer the firmware if you like, but as a matter of fact, it always worked reliable with windows laptops and not one single time with linux for me (open for suggestions of stable hw). And I am not a kernel dev, but I am pretty sure drivers are in general involved with waking up and sleeping as well. There are just lots of things, that can go wrong there. One small bug somewhere can result in blocking the hibernation => result is a drained battery.

For the framework 13th gen it only required running a fairly recent kernel (>=6.1) for it to work, but that's definitely hindsight

I use it too it's not hard to setup and works well (with very few exceptions and if you use a "recent" enough linux kernel, depending on your hardware).

Once hibernation is setup just set systemd [Login]HandleLidSwitch=suspend-then-hibernate and maybe configure the delay with [Sleep]HibernateDelaySec=5min.

Hibernation most times works nice too (even with Full Disk Encryption (FDE)) there is just one gotcha, lockdown mode is currently fundamentally incompatible with hibernation (even through it's docs seem to imply something else, they refer to a not yet existing feature). And some distros enable lockdown mode by default if you use a proper FDE setup. Leading to a lot of confusion about hibernation suposedly not working anymore in linux or being incompatible with FDE.

Ok, I will give it a try again, thanks for the explanation.

Many laptops these days only implement s2idle and no proper s3 support which is the main culprit. My lenovo only does a day (at best) in s2idle under linux (windows is worse), when I switched it to s3 it does about 4 days as expected for the amd cpu. Fortunately this has a switch in the bios (which says windows won't work afterwards which is cow manure). You get the added benefit that windows can't phone home when you close the lid.

My X1 Nano Gen 1 has the same switch in EFI. Glad it exists but yeah it’s weird that Lenovo suggests that using it breaks Windows.

I think the idea is that Windows will occasionally not wake up properly, leaving the user to “choke it out” (power button for 5 sec to force a hard shut down, power button to power up). Sorry if you had any unsaved work.

Personally, Hibernate works great, doesn’t require any battery life to sustain it, and always comes back with state intact, so it’s my go to.

> Hibernate works great

Seconded. All of these modern "smart sleep" solutions are uniformly worse than just giving me a got-danged hibernate option.

Hibernate is just slow, especially if you dual boot and have to wait through grub.

> uniformly worse

Extremely false: hibernate is way slower. Sleep happens within a second and awakes within a second. Hibernate requires writing all your memory to disk; if you have, say, 15GB of memory in use and a disk that can read and write at 1 GB/sec (far from the fastest, but also extremely far from the slowest), that’s fifteen seconds. For many (probably most) people’s realistic situations, hibernate will take over a minute.

(Heh, my own laptop takes 4–8 minutes to hibernate if its CPU is slowed to 400 MHz to minimise power consumption, which incidentally happens automatically when it’s almost down to 0% battery power, shortly after which it triggers a suspend-then-hibernate, and the extra time that makes it take it brings it perilously close to running out of power before it finishes. Not certain why limiting the CPU has such a massive effect, but I’ve compared it when manually inducing similar circumstances by giving the CPU an impossibly low power envelope with `ryzenadj --stapm-limit 100 --fast-limit 100 --slow-limit 100`, which limits all cores to 400 MHz, and yeah, that makes hibernate slow.)

Same for mine, there's even a long thread about it in Lenovo's forum (T14 gen1). I still think 4 days is not really great compared to my previous MacBook that could sleep for weeks.

Yeah, I kinda give up on great trackpad and insane, actual, battery life.

It's been a while too, I'm remember that being a plus of Apple devices since 10+ years.

It's a bit crazy that it's been so long and it's still a major pain point for me on Linux. Apart from that, I really enjoy the machine. Not really an issue when it's plugged in at home, but annoying on the go...

Battery life is bad overall for this, at least on the sister T14s gen1. Is it the same experience for you and what tweaks have you made to increase battery life?

According to this thread we might never get AMD pstate driver working.

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/amd-pst...

I enabled the pstate driver yesterday for my T14s gen3 (AMD). It almost doubled my battery life, the fan never spins anymore and it's very very quiet and cool now. You need to specifically enable it in Linux kernel, this is how I did it:

https://github.com/pimeys/nixos/commit/17e8a9e2ce4b0f34ef6cf...

It should also be used together with the `shedutil` governor for the best results.

CPPC needs to be enabled in BIOS for this and unfortunately that option isn't present.

If you see the thread linked in previous comment, Lenovo has been advised not to enable the feature :/

Seems to work for me at least:

  > cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_driver
  amd-pstate

And, it has a tremendous effect on battery life and the fan speed on the G3. Maybe it doesn't work with previous models?

As the parent said, apparently AMD recommended not to enable it for that generation [1]. That's the price to pay for having a first gen I suppose...

[1] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/amd-pst...

Yes battery life is awful since day 1. I initially thought I had a faulty device or something. Apart from that the machine is great, it's really a shame. I tried a lot of various things mentioned in the forum, updated the BIOS, tested plenty of various configurations, to no avail.

Every time I put my Apple laptop to sleep for an extended period, I come back to it completely dead.

It cannot even boot for an about an hour while it charges to a minimum level.

a Intel Apple laptop? because they kinda don't care much more about the intel devices they had produced

Yeah, unfortunate I suppose.

Maybe its just me, but I've found Macbooks to be worse for this

I have a Macbook Air, M1, which I don't use regularly but turn off after every use. When I go to turn it back on again, the battery's completely dead. I haven't had that from any non-apple laptop for a long time, and I sometimes go +6 months without turning them on

The trackpad though I'm in agreement with. I never understood why people use an external trackpad with their imacs until I used it on the macbook

I feel like my M1 Air could live on for weeks in sleep mode, as long as nothing's plugged in. Maybe you could try Sleep Air [1] to find the culprit?

[1]: https://ohanaware.com/sleepaid/

Title should be changed to mention the fact that this is about the Ryzen mainboard.

And what's all new today is that preorders are now open: "Framework Laptop 13 with AMD Ryzen preorderable"

The new thing is the specific CPU announcement. I'm pretty sure preorders have stayed open since the initial announcement a few weeks back.

I see. So before today, you could preorder Framework Laptop 13 with Ryzen 5 or Ryzen 7 without knowing which CPU model you'll get, but today you can preorder with Ryzen 5 7640U or Ryzen 7 7840U specifically.

Correct. AMD officially announced the processors today, which means we get to announce them too. Before this, people were basically operating on trust that the Framework+Ryzen combo was going to spec out positively.

Not that much trust, I pre ordered but all it required was a 100$ refundable deposit. More than worth it imo.

Correct, and AMD preorders recently sold out for Q3 and are now into Q4.

"We haven’t opened ordering in your region yet, but we’re looking forward to getting there!"

...I've been waiting for two years with money in hand. Please let me pay you, please? Printing a set of keycaps for Scandinavian layouts can't be _that_ expensive?

I feel your pain as I am waiting to do the same.

Apparently it's not just the keycaps but also stuff like warranty, returns etc. - quite a lot of legal bullshit before the product can reach you.

I haven't seen any official announcement for a Ryzen Framework 16 though, so for me specifically it doesn't change much for now.

Why not use US/UK layout? The product is mainly for programmers therefore I'm certain the demand for these layouts is low. Scandinavian/German etc layouts are a pain in the ass to write chars needed for programming to behind with.

Just map your keys so you get your umlauts with caps from where you are used to, not what your keyboard labels tell you.

Or just ä - caps+ a etc.

I can't live with the tiny enter key on US/UK layouts. I've spent way too long on the big one :)

Also US and UK aren't in the EU, so shipping and taxes are going to literally kill me.

UK layout has a big enter key and small left shift; it's the US layout that has a small enter and large left shit.

Ireland uses the UK layout as well, and they're still in the EU. Of course, the letters and symbols printed are different from e.g. the Swedish layout, but the key locations should be the same.

Because it's what people are used to. From experience I know that switching between US and UK layouts is rather painful: the key sizes are different, some keys are in different locations. One downside of having a "special" layout than everyone else is that everyone else's computer is harder to use (and also, harder for others to use your computer).

Just get a blank keyboard and sticker on your own legend if you need to. They have both enter sizes. (Only half joking, and you can buy a different keyboard once it is available in your locale.)

I'm super happy for this and it's truly great to see framework continuing the quest, and I would still buy a new framework today (if they weren't out of stock) but it is very frustrating how out of stock nearly everything is from current and last generation. You can't even buy a new 12th gen intel at all, and the 11th gen important things (like US Keyboards) are out of stock. As a US English speaker with a a little Spanish, I'd have to settle for French or German keyboard which would annoy me to no end.

I cut framework a ton of slack for this during covid since everything supply chain was so crazy, but is this just the normal (or new normal) for framework? The dream of modularity and repairability only works when you can actually buy the replacement parts, and so far I've had my framework for almost two years and it's been quite difficult to get parts when I needed them. Unfortunately the beauty and lightweightness of the framework means it is a lot more fragile than the Thinkpads and Dells I used to buy, so gets broken more when dropped/abused. If I could get the parts I need it wouldn't be a big deal, but as such...

Replacement parts are available in the Marketplace, and both US English Input Covers and US English Keyboards are in stock, along with most other parts: https://frame.work/marketplace

For older generation systems (12th Gen and 11th Gen), our general intent is to sell out of the older generation just as we start shipments of the newer generation. We usually get pretty close, but sometimes we do have more or less demand than anticipated.

I'd be a lot more interested in this if there was a way to get a decent keyboard on it, i.e. one with t-shaped arrow keys, instead of this terrible bar-shaped one. I ended up with some work Macbooks when they switched to bar-shaped and they were _miserable_ to use. I had to add some tape on the left and right keys just to get some tactile feedback about where my fingers had to end up. It's an absolute dealbreaker for me these days, pretty much no matter how great everything else about the laptop may be.

It's kind of a minor nitpick but I also miss the half-size arrow and pgup/pgdown keys of Thinkpads. Framework already provides multiple layouts so they might be able to provide this variant on their Marketplace as well.

Your tape trick sounds like a good workaround meanwhile, and people have been doing more complex customizations and prototypes as well, for example: https://community.frame.work/t/changed-my-keyboard-layout-in...

You can use home row keys JKL; as arrow keys with a thumb right alt as a modifier (or a long hold space), that beats having to move your hand to an unergonomic cluster

I'm _really_ tempted to pre-order.

But I need first answers first:

- battery life for normal browser usage compared to the intel 11th gen version

- does Linux works well (e.g. no intel 12th gen integrated graphic tearing problems or similar), sleep power saving not being grate doesn't matter

> - does Linux works well (e.g. no intel 12th gen integrated graphic tearing problems or similar), sleep power saving not being grate doesn't matter

Probably not. AMD laptops have struggled in the past. Even Intel Alder Lake works better with 6.2, but I still have issues where it does not resume properly months after release, which was months after Intel released Alder Lake mobile. When I lift the laptop lid, it stays suspended for a few minutes until it wakes up or I need to close the lid and reopen it. Had similar resume and suspend issues with my Skylake System76 Lemur. Feels like it takes years for Intel to resolve issues with their laptops on Linux.

Works better than it used to. Better than when GNOME Settings would crash the system to freeze-haven't had that issue in over a month.

11th gen Intel didn't had that long lasting issues AFIK. It's likely related to 11th=>12th having been a big step and maybe a hasty one too, combined with a lot of GPU driver resources currently likely going to a partial rewrite of their driver components in context of them entering the dedicated GPU market.

And both support for the CPU and GPU arch they use already exist from other similar hardware. Similar the aspect that CPU and GPU are bundled together is also already handled by their current driver.

So as long as no of the interfaces or subtleties majorly changed wrt. what the driver has to do it could be proper day 1 Linux support (for CPU+GPU in normal "simple" usage).

It's not very likely thou.

And the "AI" feature likely will take forever to be nicely usable, but I don't need it.

Oh and it's not a major thing but they didn't had an AMD EFI before and I want to use custom platform keys for secure boot, so that is another point I have to check. But not being able to do so might not majorly affect my buying decisions as long as they commit to adding support in later EFI versions.

I wish their mainboard became an actual motherboard spec (something like LAPTOP-ATX), it seems like it's proprietary. Would open the door for more folks to build swappable laptop boards.

They seem to be doing everything they can to make it not proprietary. I'm not sure if there's more that they can do.

a couple possibilities off the top of my head, starting with actually working with other vendors, so it's not only them making them. Work on the whole supply chain - including recycling - for these things. do a "buy one give one" type deal to seed the hardware more widely. write a bunch of software for the device so there's even more of a draw to get one of these. develop an ARM board. All of these projects are non-trivial but until they have the sales to support the kind of staying that would require, they'll need more capital first. Know any VCs?

just dumping the specs on the website isn't enough. they need to to actually talk to other vendors and get them involved with the project, and figure out the right financial incentives for them, which won't be easy.

Lol wut? You want VCs to fund the creation/incubation of a laptop mainboard spec using equity from Framework just to spoon-feed other vendors into competition? I mean it kinda seems like the onus is on new vendors to work off the published specs and and with Framework as interest grows to codify a standard so they can be relevant. I’m sure Framework would love that. It’s really dumb to see people advocating for Framework to waste resources solving a problem that doesn't exist.

For me, all of their openness kind of falls flat when you realize it's just another locked-in laptop ecosystem... It's great that they publish their specs, but that doesn't mean anything to me if they're the only ones making them.

But they’re not locking you in, while other vendors clearly and deliberately are. Definitely the lesser evil. So even a utilitarian like you would choose Framework, provided all else is equal.

They even promote 3rd party enclosures for the mainboard in this post so you can’t even say they’re not fostering the ecosystem when they can. It’s not incumbent upon Framework to actually provide competition. That’s a competitor's job.

The nuance is that being open is the ”right thing to do”. It’s not fair to criticize Framework for doing the right thing because no competitors have stepped up yet. Or because nobody else has come around yet. It’s fine to comment on the situation and say “effectively I can still only buy a Framework mainboard”. Thats true, of course. But that's in no way Framework’s fault.

I don't think you're getting my point. I can't do anything with the specs Framework publishes, I can't fab my own parts. So for me, either as an individual or a person buying equipment for my business, when comparing Framework with Dell or Lenovo, it's the same outcome: they're the sole supplier of parts for their devices. Thus, I don't really get a benefit with using Framework vs one of the other providers, especially when I could buy a new laptop (on sale or whatever) for the cost of a mainboard upgrade. I won't buy Framework devices.

It you who's not getting my point. I explicitly said I understand that effectively there's no difference for you at the moment with framework vs other vendors. My point was that having an open system still puts you in a better situation than a closed system (and that it's not fair to criticize Framework for 3rd party parts vendors not existing since that's how this thread started), for numerous reasons but especially because you're not wholly dependent on the future benevolence of your chosen vendor to prioritize, manufacture, and provide at reasonable prices replacement parts and upgrades. Since they have a monopoly on that part, they can charge whatever they want so there's literally no incentive whatsoever pulling down the price.

I said this holds if all else is equal. You're now bringing in cost. This is a factor too, for sure, and responds to my all else is equal caveat. And if your cost analysis determines that Framework is not worth the price, then there isn't much I can do about that in a discussion here since I can't speak to their quality/reliability/experience (and why they might be worth the cost or how you might otherwise benefit for the additional price when compared to e.g. Dell) since I'm not an owner.

You would think we're talking to ChatGPT astroturfing for Dell or Lenovo.

Autonomous muddying-the-waters GPT agents. Autonomous propaganda GPT agents. Autonomous competitor-bashing GPT agents. Autonomous signal-boosting GPT agents. Autonomous thread-bumping-without-adding-new-info GPT agents.

The internet is in for a wild ride with the above agents. I don't think internet discourse will survive.

As companies trying to do open source have found out, throwing code over the wall does not a community make. Similarly, shoving specs onto their website but not engaging with the community (other laptop manufacturers in this case) does not make for a vibrant ecosystem of parts.

Um duh?!... That's why Framework engages with and promotes community efforts to build within the ecosystem they're fostering. Did you read TFA?

Don't blame me you didn't understand the assignment. The question was, what more could framework do to make their mainboard more of a standard, and was asked in a way that implied that the comment's autjor could not imagine a way they could do more than they have already.

As to the VCs funding the endeavor, maybe you've heard of the open source movement? While funding is still sometimes slim, there are still businesses being funded "for the greater good", rather than primarily trying to enrich the executives. I'm also of the mind that funders of Framework knew what they were getting into. Their openness wasn't exactly a secret, nor would it have been from the board or any investors.

If Framework was able to move the needle on modularity and reusability (and thus poison less of the Earth *) of what was previously mostly ewaste, then even if they went bankrupt, it still would be progress for humanity and the founders can hold onto that for the rest of their lives.

* The 2nd R of environmentalism is reuse.

You're crazy. If we're hallucinating and sharing notes, then we could also have Framework lobby to pass a law that requires all laptop makers to use their spec. We could coerce the president of every country to pass an executive order demanding as much. We could do it by force, even. We could starve children and superglue their fingers to soldering irons and tell them they only way they eat is if they produce competing mainboards. ....just because you can imagine doing something doesn't make it in the least bit realistic. Don't be a hyperbolic asshat.

Framework is open-spec because it's good for business and customers. I would hope their investors knew exactly what they were getting into--and that's not a charity. It's a good business built on principles of reducing e-waste and reusing perfectly good parts year over year instead of vendor lock-in and planned obsolescence. It's a better product and better UX. And like Amazon showed the world, that matters. Open source has nothing to do with nor does it imply charity. Please stop misleading people by equivocating.

We could call it a "new standard" that's so new the format hasn't been recognized by the wider industry. Although there was that Cooler Master case for mainboard only that can turn it into a headless server, so it's beginning to trickle into mainstream awareness.

> If you're upgrading your Framework Laptop to the new Mainboard, remember that you'll need DDR5 SO-DIMMs up to DDR5-5600, along with a Ryzen-compatible RZ616 or similar WiFi card.

What's a "Ryzen-compatible" WiFi card?

It could be a way to avoid saying Intel wifi card?

Seems to be just WiFi M.2 cards developed by MediaTek in collaboration of AMD[0], I guess the benefit would be additional verification/optimization.

[0]: https://www.amd.com/en/press-releases/2021-11-18-amd-and-med...

I think it means "Don't use an Intel AX201 Wifi Card because that needs an Intel CPU" without mentioning Intel.

I've used Intel AX cards on Ryzen (desktop) boards and it worked fine, you just need to install drivers via Windows Update.

That's not true though, is it?

Have an AX200 series wifi chip on an AM4 Motherboard, works well.

Using AX2XX on my Ryzen desktop too, works great. As far as I know that series of chipsets is one of the best available for Wifi/BT cards.

The *1’s use CPU offloading and only support Intel CPUs. The *0’s don’t.

AX201 only works with intel. AX200 should work in the AMD Framework as well.

Edit: Info from Intel itself https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000...

Why does it work only with Intel? Isn't WiFi card just an ordinary PCI-Express device?

> that the Intel® Wi-Fi 6 AX201 is a CRF module that uses the Intel proprietary interface

clearly not.

Some Intel cards offload work onto the CPU (or mobo?)

I think both. Chipset and CPU.

Fascinating, the specs seem identical apart from the different interface. I wonder what's the purpose/advantage of the AX201.

The 2x1 wifi card are intel specific while the 2x0 cards are CPU agnostic. As long as you have a card model ending in 0 you're fine to use any CPU.

As for why they did it I'd assume its slightly cheaper to build a 2x1 chip than a 2x0 as offloading the functions to the CPU would mean less components on the card itself. When you're selling 100s of millions of them every little bit counts.

Probably a card that supports AMD-specific backdoors in Platform Security Processor, AMD's equivalent of IME.

As other comments have already explained, it means a card that uses plain PCIe and not one that requires Intel-specific weirdness.

AFAIK there are two cards: the 2X0 and the 2X1.

The 1 only works with (recent enough) Intel CPUs, the 0 works with both. It's my understanding that some things are offloaded to the CPU on the 1 models, which older and non-Intel CPUs don't do.

I don't understand this, does it mean that Intel has put a part of card's hardware into a CPU and uses some non-standard interface between the card and the CPU? If not, then why cannot any other processor process the data? It's just bunch of numbers after all.

> Intel has put a part of card's hardware into a CPU and uses some non-standard interface between the card and the CPU?

Correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNVi

Yes. Intel has this interface called CNVi that puts only the RF stuff on the card and the rest of it in the SoC. This decouples things so you can swap in a newer radio protocol without having to throw away the rest of the implementation. Intel also markets a parallel line of wireless cards where everything is on a stick, for non-Intel or older Intel platforms.

However, in practice, it's not so clear that this works. The interface seems to have multiple versions, which aren't backwards compatible, meaning that a newer card won't work on an older CPU. For example, 201 and 211 cards don't work with an 8th gen cpu.

> does it mean that Intel has put a part of card's hardware into a CPU and uses some non-standard interface between the card and the CPU?

yes

I still hope to see a non-x86 version. The less bloat the better.

Is there any reasonable Linux support for a laptop with ARM right now? Asahi and Apple are one thing, but qualcomm's offerings haven't looked enticing at all.

Pinebook Pro count? There's also some support for the Thinkpad X13s Snapdragon.

Not for me.

I mean, it “works” as in it is a functioning computer, but it’s not really useful as a daily driver machine. Mine is very touchy and build quality-wise, it’s not great.

It is great for what you pay, don’t get me wrong. And I’m sure some people could use it daily, but between the battery life and sluggish performance, it’s not really in the same conversation as the Framework model here.

I think for me the real issue I have is that with the Pinebook Pro (and Linux on ARM in general), you’re limited to a specific set of “blessed” Linux distributions. There is still a lot of custom code that goes into these, so it’s not at the point of being able to just download your favorite distro and running it. It’s getting better, but there are so many variations of chips that it’s hard to get things running smoothly. The flexibility of the OS and ARM CPUs really makes it difficult without a major OEM/vendor taking charge.

I would have loved to be able to rely on Pine products. But they are all garbage-tier unsupported crap.

Their modus operandi is to take reference circuits, splatter on a few peripherals to IO lines, make a case, and call it a day.

Happen to have 2 USB-C ports (ala pinephone pro)? Hope you which one to use cause the other one will fry stuff.

You have a pine SBC? Says it will boot on their micro memory chips instead of mSD? Nah you still need a mSD to pass to the chip.

And they'll wash their hands of any support requests, and blame the open source community for support.

Save yourself the pain, suffering, and lost money. Do not buy Pine anything.

From the website:

"As a new open source platform, Pinebook development is an ongoing process and represents a great opportunity to get involved with computing on a different level, to customize and personalize the portable computer experience, to understand what is going on beneath the surface. If you are looking for a device in a convenient laptop form-factor that you wish to tinker with, then it is safe to say the Pinebook is the right device for you. We do no wish to discourage anyone from getting the Pinebook, but it is not a daily driver, so if you are looking to replace your current work or school laptop it may be wise to look elsewhere."

They have been extremely upfront about this from day 1. Your expectations are not realistic or in alignment with what Pinebook themselves has said about their devices.

I run NetBSD on my Pinebook Pro, you are not restricted to specific Linux distributions.

I have a pinebook. its. a fun toy but the trackpad is trash and there's not much if any HD space so I still use my MBP as a daily driver. I'd happily pay more for a pinebook pro with at least 512 gb of space, 8 gb of ram and a beefier battery. the cpu performance is on the low end but workable.

You can put any size of M.2 SSD you want into the Pinebook Pro. The RAM limit is down to the SoC itself, the next generation laptop would probably use a RK3588 which can address more RAM.

I would love to have a pinepook (without pro), but whenever I check their site it is not orderable. Anyone know when it will become available again? Is there some newsletter I can subscribe to? I did not find anything and asking in their discord did also not help

MNT reform uses the well documented NXP i.MX8 SoM from Boundary Devices. The SoM can be replaced to swap out CPU/memory and there is an FPGA module being worked on.

It's more DiY but for some that is a huge boon. Used one in person and its quite bulky and heavy but feels pretty solid and comfortable enough to use. The mechanical keyboard and trackball option are unique and welcome additions. I liked it so much I ordered a pocket reform though I intend to run 9front on it.

while in theory there are arm things available on various package repos, in practice I've hit a good amount of stuff not packaged yet (in my case, the context was more around people doing stuff via docker M1)

Is this current info? On the various projects I find myself working on (usually web-related across a few different stacks) I don't really run into any without an ARM64 version.

From the top of my head: swagger, postgis have no arm64 docker image.

For the more desktopy thingies: chrome has no arm64 build.

Alpine, Debian and Arch have never given me a miss regarding packaging for arm64/hf. And I work specifically with embedded Linux using those distros as a base.

I'm using the Acer Chromebook Spin 513 with a Qualcomm SC7180 processor as my daily driver and almost everything Just Works except hardware decoding (of videos) and 4k 60Hz display port output.

Are you running ChromeOS or a Linux distro?

Does anyone other than Apple make ARM chips worth using in a laptop?

ARM-powered Windows devices have been terrible, and the only good Chromebooks I've seen are x86.

There should be at least two RISC-V microarchitectures next year that could potentially be used in this manner.

Ventana Veyron, TBA before end of year, and Tenstorrent's Ascalon, TBA 2024, competitive with Zen5.

Veyron is a data center chip. I haven't seen TDP numbers but it's almost certainly unsuited for a laptop. Ascalon is IP and is AFAIK only available as such or as part of a data center machine learning chip.

I don't think the market forces are driving towards a RISC-V laptop chip (TH1520 is the only one that has mentioned notebook, but it's a very low-end Cortex-A72-class processor).

Hopefully this will improve eventually.

>Ascalon is IP and is AFAIK only available as such or as part of a data center machine learning chip.

AIUI it is an actual chiplet, which you're then supposed to combine with your own. They expect something physical people can buy next year, but I do not doubt there's a fair amount of extra work for it to be put into a laptop.

The IP is not only one design, either, but it is parametrized so that many presets can be built. They have several steps from small (2 wide) to large (8 wide).

Ultimately, what I meant to highlight is that the best RISC-V microarchitectures are about caught up with AMD/Apple/Intel, if not better. This is possible because of how much better RISC-V is. Else we could never have got to this point so quickly.

Actual products follow IPs. There'll be these next year from what we know, but there is also Rivos, MIPS and SiFive working on their very high performance microarchitectures we know much less about, and possibly more we don't even know about at all.

RISC-V laptops will happen.

RISC-V is inevitable.

I would love if there was an ARM flavour with 10+ hours of battery life under sustained use (like I can get on my M1).

I don't think I will ever purchase an x86 processor anymore. Everything in my home is ARM powered. If Framework switches to ARM I will strongly consider them.

Why not RISC-V?

While I'm bullish on RISC-V (both personally and professionally since before RISC-V was even public), there are currently no chips on the market that comes even close to high-end Arms, and most specifically none for mobile devices. So that's why.

This will certainly change, but I suspect laptops will be last, with datacenter (ML esp.) and ultra-mobile (ie. low-end cellphones) arriving first.

The future is RISC-V not ARM. The former will be everywhere, the latter only in Apple devices.

ARM is probably the architecture in the majority of devices currently if you account for android phones and iphones.

So ARM is the present.

True. RISC-V is out of my radar, what I'd really prefer is any linux laptop that's got >10h battery life and low heat output. Probably that's something that both ARM and RISC-V have in common?

Can't wait to see some performance reviews on these new Framework laptops

> These are both pre-orderable today, with batches shipping as early as Q3 this year.

Seems you unfortunately are gonna have to wait a while for that...

That's all great, but Framework team, when do you finally extend support for the rest of European countries?

Indeed, I have been on Framework mailing list for 2 years and hate seeing these updates.

  It seems silly that Framework can't figure some way to ship orders to the rest of EU.

No need for specific keyboard, just let us place orders.

Weird, perhaps a regulatory hurdle or different warranty requirements/costs?

I would expect that within EEA most of the regulations would be the same and I don't think it's the problem.

What you would need though is translated manuals and such by law. Maybe even localized support for warranties that could raise costs to enter a market.

This is only my assumption, but it would make sense, that's why they cover even smaller English speaking countries like Ireland. Or for example Germany is a big market, but they cover Austria too, because they have German language for free.

I found a nice reply on this topic here in the official forums: https://community.frame.work/t/availability-in-european-unio...

There must be a simpler way. I can buy any other electronics parts internationally, why not laptop parts from the Framework Marketplace? I also wouldn't mind buying as a business and skipping VAT and consumer protection. There's no import tax for computers either.

What machine is in the top left of the photo? Looks a lot like a TRS-80 Model 100.

A Framework Model 100 conversion would be pretty awesome...

An Epson HX-20! One of the first portable computers.

Well spotted!

I thought similarly, how cool would it be to have a framework chassis in a Commodore-64 style?

Will a Framework laptop give me hardware decoded video in Chrome out of the box on Ubuntu Jammy?

I have an xps-15 from work and it’s basically impossible to do. I spent so many hours trying things suggested online. As a result my Ubuntu experience is: “no you can’t stream video on battery or if you want to do anything else at the same time.”

While I think I should be able to smoothly run video on any modern laptop with any modern browser, Linux is Linux and I paid nothing for it so I can’t be picky. But I’m this close to buying a Framework just so I can have this capability.

Can someone explain the power consumption difference between one of these chips and an arm (eg m1)?

If this[0] is accurate and I'm reading it correctly, "Total Package Power Consumption over Time" indicates no more than 4W at any time (and often way less). Maybe someone can read it for me?

A Ryzen 7000 U-series CPU by itself has a TDP (this is not power consumption but rather Thermal Design Power) of 15-30W. This seems to approximate power consumption.

This[1] explores comparing the previous generation (6800U) to an M1 Pro[1] and states that the Apple chip is ~2.4x as efficient in single core Cinebench performance while being approximately tied on Cinebench R23 multi-core.

[0] https://singhkays.com/blog/apple-silicon-m1-video-power-cons...

[1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Efficiency-R...

I had already pre-ordered off the previous announcement, and I'm glad I did. I'm excited to receive my DIY kit and assemble it.

I really like framework and I happy they are offering AMD.

But I really struggle to recommend Framework after they were unable at this time to fix a hardware issue. The headphone jack will beep when sound turns on and off. Framework confirmed with me that the vendor intended for this and they were unable to fix it because of the parts shortage. It is so annoying I bought a USB C dac to play the audio in.

The keyboard, they minimize way too much, like having to use the fn key for home, end, and pg up/down, as well as insert, I need to press fn+shift+insert to paste something in gnome terminal which means I need to do it for Neovim.

Aside from that, I do like the 3:2 aspect ratio, even if it has issues with GNOME and websites. GNOME refuses to let you snap two windows to each side for some reason. Websites think your screen is too small and so you get the mobile version for a lot of sites.

Still, beautiful screen, excellent webcam, metal body. Needs more execution.

> The headphone jack will beep when sound turns on and off

How did this so-called vendor intended behaviour pass Q&A?

> The keyboard, they minimize way too much, like having to use the fn key for home, end, and pg up/down, as well as insert, I need to press fn+shift+insert to paste something in gnome terminal which means I need to do it for Neovim.

This is a common problem with many laptops unfortunately; there seems to be this obsession that keyboards need to be exactly rectangular, so you need to cram.

I remapped Windows+p in my WM to paste from PRIMARY and Shift+Windows+p to paste from CLIPBOARD. Even on a regular keyboard it's actually a lot more convenient than Shift+Insert.

Why not just remap it to a convenient shortcut?

I'm waffling on my pre-order because I realized Frameworks don't have touchscreens, which I really enjoy when reading long articles. Kind of wild that they offer all these other features that seem very niche, but a common one these days is absent.

I'm on the flip side of this preference. If framework laptops had a touchscreen, I would have waffled on ordering one.

Why? You can always turn off the touchscreen. I have on my laptop.

They make the display worse.

Could you quantify this?

can you turn it off in hardware though?

> If framework laptops had a touchscreen, I would have waffled on ordering one.

Is there some specific quality-related reason for this? I’m not a fan of touchscreens on laptops but absent some glaring technical issue I can’t imagine that being a blocker for my purchases.

A touch screen adds weight and a glossy display. I purposely purchased the Lenovo T14S Gen 3 AMD without a touch screen as I prefer a matte screen, and the device is lighter.

Touch screens do not have to be glossy. I've used plenty of matte touch screen displays.

I've only been using Macs for a while now and was a thinkpad guy long ago so pardon my ignorance here but a touchscreen really considered common feature of a laptop now? Last I tried it I found the experience to be really awkward and not better than using a trackpad or mouse.

I only want a touchscreen if the machine is lightweight and the hinges go all the way around, to put it in tablet mode.

A nice 12-14" tablet is great for reading long documents, or for writing them with an external keyboard.

At least in the laptops I look at (mainly Thinkpads), yes it is a common feature.

I'm genuinely interested in this use case.

Do you keep the laptop on a desk when you're using the touchscreen? I don't think framework has hinges that convert it into a tablet-esque form, so I'm kinda flummoxed on how a touchscreen is useful for long articles. Something about reaching out and touching the screen seems laborious compared to scrolling on a mousewheel or swiping slightly on a trackpad (or even just pressing spacebar). Laptops just don't seem to designed for that.

Not OP, but I enjoy touchscreens on laptops also. I can get by without it. I see it as a nice to have but not a necessity. It won't make or break a decision when choosing a laptop for me. Here are some reasons I like it when I do have a laptop with it:

- I think it's a better zoom experience. You can get a similar experience with a touchpad, but it's just nicer to touch the screen where you are pinch zooming IMO.

- Signing documents. I don't do this often but much prefer to use a touchscreen over a track pad when I do have to.

- Some games are better. Again not a big part of my life, but occasionally I'll play some drawing game where a touch screen shines.

- My kids understand a touch screen better. Occasionally I am on my laptop showing them something and them having the ability to reach over and touch the screen directly is a better UX for that situation.

- I do kind of like to scroll with it sometimes, but I can't really say why.

Again, not a make or break it feature for me, but all things being equal I'd choose to have it rather than not.

Wow some other great use cases - thanks for mentioning these. I do also use the touchscreen when playing among us, it gives the game a more tactile feel, while you still have a full keyboard for the requisite chatting.

It's actually very nice, you can scoot the laptop closer to you while lounging on a couch, and scroll the screen naturally with your thumb. Again, reading long articles is my common use-case, but I've occasionally used it to read through large source files as well.

Easily the best use of a touchscreen is developing mobile websites/apps. I only buy laptops with touchscreens as its indispensable for mobile development.

I have a Lenovo Yoga 2 laptop that flips around to Tablet mode and found that I almost never use that mode. I do however use the Touchscreen all the time for reading.

When you're sitting with a laptop on your lap using the keyboard, you typically have it pushed out resting on your thighs toward your knees so that your hands can access the keyboard and touchpad.

When you have a touchscreen, you can pull the laptop closer so that your hands are behind the screen like when holding a book or magazine. The touchscreen allows you to thumb scroll up and down. And because it's a laptop and not a tablet, you don't get fatigued holding it in this reading position because the chassis is supporting the screen and not your hands.

It's actually quite nice and I will likely never purchase a laptop without touch again for that reason alone. The touchscreen is definitely niche, like Thinkpad nubbins.

on the other hand, i would think twice before buying a laptop with touchscreen.

i don't use it at all and it's mostly a waste of battery power, as there usually is no way to explicitly power it down (except maybe opening the laptop and snipping the right cable -- but who wants to do that ?)

How big of a power draw is a touch screen? I would think that's a solved problem given the plethora of touch devices we have.

I was almost certain my new laptop would be one of the newer thinkpads, but this might change it for me.

Kind of wish they offered a matte-black version though. I know its trivial, but I do love that Thinkpad look

I'm definitely hoping for matte-black too, but the two things I'm actually blocking on are a trackpoint (I realise this is probably not happening) and availability in my country.

Oh yeh I forgot about the trackpoint as well. Theres a few things holding me back, but the pull is getting stronger

I guess a trackpoint could happen if third parties start getting involved more in making keyboards and whatnot.

Hmm, do they have keyboards that fix up the arrow key cluster? Either all half-height (plus page up/down above the left/right keys) or all full-height?

Half-height should be easy as the up/down keys are half-height already, and there would be no need for new holes. Wiring for two additional keys can't be that difficult either. Dedicated page up and page down keys would be really practical.

no it's the curse of semi-13" laptops

their 16" laptop doesn't have this problem

they could produce a keyboard where right shift is smaller and you have a full up key but UP/DOWN would still be missing and moving the key further down would lead to other ergonomic problems

You can work around this by switching some function keys with UP/DOWN (or POS1/END or both).

e.g. in a custom XKB key map (you can just extend e.g us, place it under .config/xkb/symbols) you can use following to switch Pos1/End and F9/F10:

key <FK09> { [ Home, Home ] };

key <FK10> { [ End, End ] };

key <HOME> { [ F9, F9 ] };

key <END> { [ F10, F10 ] };

it's one of this "not hard if you happen to know how to do it" linux things

Does it used shared memory between CPU and GPU?

I'm having a tough time finding a definitive answer, but it seems logical that AMD would enable this.

Traditionally, an iGPU would get a designated portion of system memory reserved for it, and unavailable to the CPU (e.g. 512MB to 2GB).

But AMD has enabled shared memory between modern Ryzen CPUs and Radeon GPUs, called "Smart Access Memory." So it sure seems logical that they would enable that feature for their APUs.

I am puzzled by the lack of keyboard layouts for Switzerland (we have the cash to spend on such novelties!). Also, no DVORAK? Is this for hackers or not?

French Canadian $99 English International $99 German $99 US English $99 French $99 British English $99 Clear ANSI $109 Blank ANSI $109 Black ISO $109 Clear ISO $109

> Also, no DVORAK? Is this for hackers or not?

I can't imagine they would sell enough DVORAK layout to make it worth it.

As a long time Dvorak user, I'm always baffled by people wanting visual Dvorak layouts and physically rearranging their keycaps (which is a really bad idea on many keyboards, with cap angle differing by row). Dvorak really speeds up touch typing (edit: hypothetically, or at least makes it more comfortable). If you're looking at your hands while typing, just use qwerty. Dvorak won't help you.

You can use Dvorak regardless of what letters are printed on the keycaps.

For some reason, typing non-word-phrase passwords, especially unfamiliar ones, on a keyboard without being able to see the correct keycaps often seems challenging, even though I can touch type very well for text and for programming. It feels like there is some aspect of typing something that requires a character-by-character rational thought process to type that interrupts an instinctive memory of where each character is located.

With that said, having Dvorak keys on my laptop would make the keyboard unusable or very difficult to use for a large number of other people, and so even if one were offered, I'd be unlikely to buy it. Even for many people who touch type well, I think having keycaps that are wrong when one does glance at them is something that takes some experience to get used to, and a Dvorak user typically has that experience, whereas a Qwerty user usually doesn't.

I mean yeah, but learning a new layout is a lot easier when the keycaps match. Also if someone who only knows qwerty has to use your computer for whatever reason they can still hunt and peck vs it being completely impossible.

> but learning a new layout is a lot easier when the keycaps match

I'd suggest learning a new layout is easier on an entirely different keyboard, so as to minimize confusing the fingers' motor memory.

> who only knows qwerty has to use your computer for whatever reason they can still hunt and peck vs it being completely impossible.

Hunting for keys on an unfamiliar layout is impractical.

In my experience, just switch the layout from Dvorak to US International, if you're using Dvorak and someone else wants to use your laptop.

Learning to touch type any layout, either when first learning to type or learning a new layout, is seriously hampered by ever looking at your hands. You should use a layout chart and navigate the keyboard by touch. There's a reason that most actual typing education uses blank keyboards or keyboard covers that hide the letter printings.

If somebody who only knows qwerty uses your computer, you should switch the keymap to qwerty for them, not force them to try to navigate an unfamiliar layout. Every major OS makes it very easy to switch keymaps.

> which is a really bad idea on many keyboards, with cap angle differing by row

Even when keycaps have uniform profile, the 'F' and 'J' keycaps will often have bumps on them. These are the 'homing keys', so that it's easier for the fingers to return to home row.

The Laptop is devoted to hackers, not hipsters.

The hipsters are probably using Colemak.

I use blank keycaps on my mechanical keyboard for my Dvorak layout: https://www.keyboardco.com/product/blank-black-filco-104-key...

I also don't see the point of printing Dvorak layout. You use Dvorak to speed up your touch typing, and reduce fatigue.

I touch-type, but it is still handy having accurate printing on the key caps when entering key combinations.

It's also incredibly helpful for anyone learning a new keyboard layout.

Also, if anyone (who doesn't already use Dvorak) has the misfortune of needing to use your computer with its Dvorak layout, that misfortune is amplified by many orders of magnitude if there's no visual indication of which keys are which.

Use blank keycaps then. Dvorak is for touch typing so you shouldn't be looking at your keys in the first place ;)

> Is this for hackers or not?

A real hacker uses blank keys.

A real hacker twiddles the data lines on a USB port manually instead of bothering with luser-friendly crap like keyboards.

We've got that one covered: https://frame.work/products/input-cover-kit-blank?v=FRANFC00...

Well there you go.. bonus: you can paint/apply your own Dvorak layout labels in whatever font you choose.

There is some irony in wanting hardware built "for hackers." Hackers use things in spite of their intended purposes.

Grüezi!

Luxembourg is rich, too, and does not even have its own keyboard layout. Deal with it! ;-) And if you prefer Dvorak why not go for „clear iso“? And what’s up with you people hating „ß“ so much, anyways.

Best regards, a neighbor

ECC?

One thing I've learned from running an M1 processor is how much memory bandwidth actually matters for my use case.

I don't see this listed anywhere. Anyone have any ideas how this compares to something like an M1?

You should be able to find benchmarks online using 7th gen Ryzen and whatever speed DDR5 you plan to pair it with, to get a ballpark.

I wouldn't expect it to touch M1 though, given M1's integrated design.

Is that in reference to the physical locality, or the bit-width of the interface

https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-7840u

DDR5-5600 would be 69.21GB/s[0] which is slightly more than the base Apple Silicon M1 (66.67GB/s) but well under the M1 Pro.

M2 has 100GB/s of unified memory bandwidth[1].

[0] https://www.crucial.com/articles/about-memory/everything-abo...

[1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/06/apple-unveils-m2-with...

That performance per TDP of that 8C chip is unreal. Congrats to framework for doing the right and coolest thing. I am fanatical about what this company is doing.

Has anyone tried building a home cluster out of these motherboards?

For home clusters, quiet and low power are worth a hell of a lot more than they are in a data center.

Really, really can't wait for the Framework 16.

Better display please! 2256x1504 is so 2010!

For 13" screen isn't that more than enough? I barely see pixel grid on 1080p display.

My ASUS ZenBook has 3300x2200 at 13" and it's the best display I've ever had. Can't downgrade once I got used to it, at 2x pixel density it's basically 1650x1100 but with much nicer pixels. Looks stunning in Linux.

2256×1504 at 13.5″ is 200ppi, which is awkward, clearly designed for a scaling factor of 1.5×. You’ll get drastically better results by going up to 2× scaling with 3000×2000 display like the Surface Book’s (267ppi), partly from the increased resolution and partly just from avoiding the difficulties or quality loss (depending on approach) of fractional scaling. (As a matter of fact, environments that use integral scaling plus downsampling will produce better results on a lower-resolution 1× screen for a lot of types of content.)

I now use a laptop with a 188ppi display (which I use at 1.5×), because that was where I found the best compromise at the time. I really miss the resolution of my Surface Book.

> I barely see pixel grid on 1080p display.

Honestly, if you can see it at all, it’s not high enough.

It's plenty. For comparison, Apple's M2 MacBook Air has a 13.6" 2560-by-1664 display.

M2 Air's retina resolution goes down to 1280x832 whereas Framework's to 1128x752 which is a notch worse in both dimensions.

4K is a large battery drain for very little benefit over 1440.

The screen is not 1440p, it's a 3:2 panel so at 16:9 it would be 1269p.

Helllllllllll no. This machine is on x86, I need all the battery life I can get.

Ha, I got a 1440p display on desktop in 2019.

I bet your desktop display is not 2160x1440 though...

Am I the only one persistently mistaking the Framework logo for an ugly flower instead of a screw head?

My ideal laptop. I wonder if there will be ergonomic keyboards for the 13 inch model.

Is there any proprietary firmware on these? If this is truly open, I'm excited, otherwise I do not care one bit.

(Scrolling down the comments, I am honestly disappointed that I am the only person asking this question. Or does everyone else already know and I'm just out of touch?)

Just look at the specs of their laptops, plenty of Intel etc hardware that have management engines and whatnot. Openness is not their (primary) goal, it’s about being able to upgrade and replace components of your laptop just as you are able to do with a desktop.

> Or does everyone else already know and I'm just out of touch

Sadly I think assuming a new x86-based system could possibly be "truly open" if it isn't a screaming headline-feature is kind of out of touch, yes.

If it's not supported by Libreboot (yet?) then I'm afraid that it won't fit your (and my) criteria of open.

Don’t think so; you might want to look at Purism, which I think is quite a bit closer. https://puri.sm/

They never claim to be open in that blog post, and on their about page they only say the laptop is open for repair and upgrade.

Maybe someday? I'd love to see this too.

AMD to consider coreboot/Libreboot support for Ryzen [1]

Although, the only Framework with Coreboot support is their Chromebook, which has to use Coreboot per Google. But, comments in this thread seem to indicate broader use of Coreboot may be possible from Framework, in the future [2]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13781408

[2]https://community.frame.work/t/coreboot-on-the-framework-lap...

Where's the framework 'surface'?

The design philosophy of Framework seems to be diametrically opposed to Microsoft's Surface.

If there is a market for modular transformable tablets, is it large enough to cover the expense of research and development?

Opposed to microsoft's version of the concept, perhaps.

To me, modular, upgradable, repairable fit the tablet form-factor even more than a laptop - you choose your own keyboard, mounting system (eg a folio case to use the combo as an actual laptop, vesa mount holes or adapter to stick it onto a monitor mount), etc.

The questions I always ask:

- Does it have atlest two m.2 slots?

- Can I have WIFI and WWAN (5G)?

- Can this fit 4 RAM sticks? (96-128G RAM)

- Does it have a 4k display? (it's 2023, come on!)

Still not many computers do offer these parameters :-( I'd love to have Framework laptop if it would offer these parameters.

Can I ask what workloads you’re running where 8TB storage and 64gb ram aren’t enough? On a laptop…

on a 13 inch laptop at that

M2 MacBook has 96GB at 14". One can use it to run LLaMA 4-bit instead of 3-bit.

I've run LLaMA 65B 4bit int using llama.cpp on an couple of year old laptop with 64GB of RAM. Not a bunch of extra left, but it does fit!

Qubes OS? Although 32GB RAM and 3TB storage are currently almost sufficient for me.

My laptop is my primary and only work machine. I run a lot of VMs and operations on some bigg-ish datasets.

RAM disks are quite a good way to expedite these things - along with two SSDs.

Two M.2 slots, two slots for 5G/WiFi and 4 RAM Slots? You're aware we're talking about a 13 inch device here, right? No way this fits into the 13 chassis.

It absolutely can. I don't really need a laptop that is razor thin :-)

If you need 128GB of RAM then a 13 inch laptop is not what you need.

I usually go with are you consuming or creating. 13 inch is perfect for consuming but for some creating scenarios it may not be enough.

honestly I wonder if/how that much memory would affect battery life.

Honestly I'd go for ~15" or similar, but that's not the option (yet).

A 4K resolution on a 13.5-inch monitor? That's almost as bad of a waste of GPU as mining bitcoin.

Just for fun I did some calculations, at 1080p a pixel is 0.1483 mm wide, at 4K it's 0.0742 mm. With the eye's angular resolution of 1 arcminute at say half a meter away, that's 500 mm * tan(1/60°) = 0.1455 mm. Even someone with perfect eyesight could hardly be able to tell. Do you intend to use it as a VR headset?

Most people use 2x scaling at that resolution and that helps predominantly the text quality as a single "superpixel" is made out of 4 pixels and many more subpixels.

So you're literally using it as a 1080p screen? Lmao.

Yes, since like 2012 with the MacBook Pro. That's how retina works. It's 2023 now.

And almost no PC laptop copies that concept. The benefit is simply not that compelling unless you are designing type faces maybe.

But maybe we boring PC people just can’t miss what we don’t know. Like Bentley cars or Champagne when we can get Toyotas and sparkling wine. ;)

...or maybe it's just market segmentation to give PC plebs inferior tech? You seem to be proud of being what some marketing exec views as an unimportant low-margin value segment only good for getting rid of old stuff.

It's probably an eye thing. I looked at higher resolution Macs carefully and I honestly cannot see the difference (despite not having known eyesight issues). I'm sure if I'd train my eyes enough I might end up seeing the difference, but I don't really see why I would want to train my eyes on that and then having to complain my whole life about standard screens not being good enough.

You might be right; I see pixels on 13" 1080p displays clearly so I simply have no choice.

I think the actual market segmentation is Apple charging a 300-400% markup for storage. Framework's prices are far more honest and you can always bring your own M.2s as well.

Agreed, Apple practices are atrocious and Framework seems like a better deal. But it looks like they scavenged unsold displays made for Microsoft Surface and can't source other ones with the same aspect ratio/size but better anywhere.

96GB is doable with 2x48GB DDR5 modules that will be available soon.

I think you should be waiting for their 16" model.

I absolutely will be :-) And I really hope that it will have these features as I would really love to have Framework laptop and support RtR!

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