Nostr – Decentralized social network
nostr.com
nostr.com
[1] https://damus.io
full disclosure: I’m a bitcoiner.
One pizza place here, and one bitcoin ATM there does not make a difference. As long as you can't trade real goods and services for crypto coins it is absolutely worthless. And that is why any association with crypto makes intelligent people scared. Because it's inflated by confidence, like a true scam.
The only real goods and services that have kept bitcoin going is a black market of illegal goods and services.
Then proceeds to handpick what the real world uses of btc should be excluded from the argument.
No coiners are a special bunch.
As long as you can sell it for USD it's not worthless - you don't other goods/services - although that said the list of those is still growing.
The fact that I can send money (liquid fiat) to a friend without going through paypall/zello/etc. is valuable.
The only thing that could make it a "scam" is the promise of money, which I 100% agree that using crypto to "make money" is stupid and is a massive problem.
You can do that only because Bitcoin is currently underregulated. Governments will eventually regulate it to enforce money laundering laws and starve DPRK, and then Bitcoin will become even more expensive relative to other options.
Sure, and if that happens then it's value as a liquid fiat will decrease. The idea that "it only goes up and to the moon!" is what has made everyone declare it a scam.
If it currently has a use case then it has value. The currency is not a "scam" but this horrendous idea of treating it as an "investment" is delusional.
I think cryptocurrency has a few very valid use cases, but I think it's been shoved onto everything when it's not even needed (CSGO has been fine without NFTs).
The use case is not due to the technology having any benefit but due to current underregulation. The reason people declare it a scam is that the technology does not solve any practical problems better than centralized ledgers.
And just so that we're clear, said "illegal goods" include, for example, generic drugs from other countries.
I don't think it's recovered from the silk road and alphabay era?
It's just game currency essentially for the social app. When I think about it like that, it makes me less nervous.
[0] https://account.entropiauniverse.com/account/deposits/#:~:te....
The difference is that the Bitcoin transaction will cause millions of computers to waste a serious amount of electricity calculating hashes over and over.
The real transaction happens at the beginning, and another transaction happens at the end when the channel closes and we settle out who gets the remainder.
The UX for key management should be monstrously different between shitposting and the instantaneous loss of money, for starters.
All of this is optional and opt-in.
Its nice you live in a country with a stable currency that doesnt hyperinflate. Not everyone has this luxury. Zimbabwe and Venezuela come to mind.
Bitcoin started a literal tsunami of financial crimes, I feel bad for hyperinflated countries and if they find some use in bitcoin that's great for them, but I for one will stay the fuck away from anything blockchain related if I can help it.
ChatGPT says you used "hasty generalization" fallacy, but I'm not sure that is the correct fallacy. You have a fallacy here.
I think that’s the observation fallacy, where you look at what’s happening and then state it out loud.
The energy consumption of bitcoin does in fact make me very nervous.
From my first look I had no idea whether this is an app to connect to Nostr or a completely separate and iOS only network.
I'm ready to join a social media website that requires a social security number, photo ID, and interview process.
I've had enough of propagandists and marketers.
>Nostr is a protocol, designed for simplicity, that aims to create a censorship-resistant global social network.
So they basically want to create twitter without Musk (or anyone in charge for that matter). Nothing wrong with that goal, it's just highly unlikely to succeed given the fundamental shortcomings of this approach.
For a number of years I was a forum moderator for a game forum called Uru Obsession. Eventually that wound down and the forum closed, meaning all those discussions have also been lost (unless someone backed them up - by the time they closed I had moved on, so I dunno), and that community as far as I know has mostly dissolved since its closure.
A gossip protocol means there is no host - clients communicate directly with each other and also store the conversation locally so someone else deciding to stop paying hosting costs becomes a non-issue.
I've seen a lot of people leave Facebook over the last couple of years. And I mean a lot. Oh, they might still log in every month or two to see what's up with friend and family, but daily use? Nope.
I think people just need to be lead to greener pastures. Right now the alpha geeks aren't cooler & better, don't have great & obvious advantages for being out on the frontier trying cool shit. The Tim O'Reilly "Follow The Alpha Geeks" advice is rarely wrong, in my view, for the alpha geeks mostly want to expand capabilities & power & enable, in ways most consumer efforts are too bounded & limited to go for, but we keep forgetting this wisdom's words anyways.
Once the alpha geeks are unqualifiedly better than the mundane normy-nets, the tables will start to turn. I think the geeks are doing the good work, are putting in the right effort.
Dogfood your way to success. Do what empassions & excites you. Don't worry about l-users. Focus on being really good & powerful. You'll be out competed if you do what sigmoid10 says & compete to be the lowest common denominator of social networking, and your product will suck as bad as everything else we have.
Truly good works market themselves. Places where genuine authentic people (and creative fun bots) mix & share themselves in are what we are searching for, is the authenticity that the engagement-loop corporate networks break & burry. There's different races here. I do think the broader we are searching for better more open pattern en mass to replace the walled garden networks (a challenge many distributeers reject), but the path to victory is assymetric competition, is tapping into different sources of value & raising it up in different ways.
Do you believe in humanity? Or do you think synthetic gloss shit forever & ever will always win?
After I muted a small number of people and used some paid relays I don’t see spam or bad content.
Coolest feature is that you can switch clients while keeping the same relays and all your data stays with you.
Plus a bunch of clients have this auto translate feature so people are talking to each other regardless of the language they speak. I started following some people in other languages - very unique social media experience.
Congrats on your first comment by the way.
It's a pretty nice way to keep your feed quiet (not spammy), but also allow your notes to make it out to the broader public nostr sphere.
Why would you need to deal with anonymity?
Your identity on the network is a public/private key pair. You don't have to associate your real name with your posts, if you don't want to. And you can have multiple key pair identities if you want.
Posts are plain text by default, but encrypted private messages can also be exchanged.
You can choose what relays to post to, and obfuscate your ip address with a vpn or tor if you desire.
> can the relay log everything
Yes, subject to the above mitigations.
The protocol is surprisingly simple to read [1], many relays and clients exist already.
I exchanged messages with a friend of mine who was using a very different client and it just worked!
Personally I like the fact that you can 'like' posts by sending a couple of sats via Lightning. I think it is a great motivator to write thoughtful, quality content.
Currently nostr is radical, weird and unpolished. The Amethyst client is slow at times. But the pace of development is incredible.
[1] https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/blob/master/01.md
Adding because Nostr seems to be marketed as something more decentralized than that, and I'd like to get a deeper understanding.
With mastodon your client only talks to one "instance" to see all the "instances" that "instance" is federated with.
With Nostr your client connects to every "relay" you want to see content from, there isn't really any communication between "relays".
assuming it's the same as Scuttlebutt (also gossip protocol) a relay is literally just a relay. There's no "home server". You don't have an account on anyone's machine. You just shove data out to "people" who are listening to you. In scuttlebutt the relays are configured so that anyone can ask it to "follow" them and then they send their data to it. Anyone who listens to that relay can get any data the relay has.
in scuttlebutt the problem was that I never felt like i could trust a relay to exist for more than 6 months, so i just followed every one i could. No-one wants to set up a relay, and relays have to have a static domain / ip so that you know where to look for them. It's not like tor where you can just leave your computer on and that's good enough. I expect the same problems here.
This makes it way easier for people to write clients or bots or whatever, but it also tosses out many of the guarantees people who used the original scuttlebot took for granted.
When you follow someone, or someone follows you, the follower's client will get a list of relays the person they want to follow is posting to. The follower can connect to any of those relays and get any new content.
On many relays it's possible to get a firehose feed of everything posted to that relay. On free public relays this firehose feed may contain lots of spam accounts.
Jack Dorsey is a co-founder, that's it. I feel like "nostr.com" has been showing up on the HN front page, with no context, at least once every week.
Nostr is all based on anonymous cryptographic identifiers, so it seems like you have some special definition of anonymity that you are looking for, as it seems nothing if not anonymous. Having a stable identifier allows relays to know who to send versus who not to send, and allows connecting data together. Users are free to sock puppet up to their hearts content, if they wish to further diffuse traffic.
The appeal? The appeal here is that this is an incredibly malleable & comprehensible low level tool for messaging. Competitors like AtProto or ActivityPub involve complex protocols to exchange/syndicate data around, as much as the payload of the messages themselves. They are high level visions for what a network is. By compare, Nostr's low level approach is organic & searching not a refined final product, but a thriving ecosystem of expanding ideas.
Nostr has extreme elegance as a protocol by being focused primarily on messages themselves, which start as very simple & understandable self signing devices. The transport & exchange of messages is almost incidental, and indeed, Nostr over shoebox or carrier pigeon is possible. This allows a lot more flexibility with how the network can form distributed connections, allows great offline capabilities, allows creative relays & creative/selective distribution mechanisms to form.
Nostr is an excellent base layer. The base specs are quite short & direct. It's a protocol one can happily implement in a weekend.
Nostr has incredibly wild applications, because it is a simple extensible base. There's a wide variety of interesting capabilities that have already need accepted as Nostr Implementation Possibilities, NIPS, that grow & build on one another. Nostr base protocol is just a start, just the seed of an idea, one that's meant to be iterated on & expanded, and it's so easy & direct to do so. This is the biggest advantage by far; I cannot stress this enough. Not trying to do absolutely everything & making a modular simple protocol to start building & iterating from is all the wins, is the Bazaar to the ambitious Cathedrals. https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips
Nostr is by far the most malleable, most open set of possibilities, the most grow able, of the social networks we have. Everything else seems to have been designed to arrive somewhat fully formed, ready to go, but Nostr's strength is that it doesn't purport to know every use case & to have a total picture of what it is. It's a much simpler idea, with much more focus on finding out the uses.
How would the relay evaluate what is spam and what is not?
Event IDs are a SHA-256 over the event's payload and metadata, so the idea is that you put some extra metadata saying "I'm doing a bunch of extra work to generate an ID with N leading zeros in the ID", and then a nonce value. You generate the ID, and check to see if it has the number of leading zeroes you wanted. If it doesn't, you increment the nonce and try again. If it does, you're all good- you sign the event and send it along.
Because the ID must be a SHA256 of the rest of the event, you have a fairly good indication of how much work the client would have had to do to generate that nonce. The more zeroes in the ID, the more effort they would have had to expend.
So, as a relay operator, you can define a policy that you won't relay events that don't meet this proof-of-work requirement, and boom, no more spamming.
Of course, there are other ways to handle the spam problem, such as requiring authentication mechanisms or external attestation of messages. But there are multiple tools in the toolbox here.
Coming up with a protocol is not that hard. The technical side is fun to work with, but I guess technologists don't realize that the human side is way harder to do.
1. Nostr is not a social network - it's a protocol on top of many social networks can be built. 2. Nostr is not limited to the social use cases - and I think that is the killer advantage here. With Nostr, you can integrate various other types of apps to facilitate not only chat but content distribution AND payments. One click payments with zaps. 3. Zaps are going to open up a floodgate of use cases that have a significant advantage over legacy ways of doing things. For example: if you have a music app with multiple recording artists, any time someone zaps or streams their song, all artists involved could get paid instantly. 4. Nostr is a discovery powerhouse that enables content to be easily discovered across platforms without gatekeeping. For creators this is great news because they can just publish in one place and be in all (willingly) participating clients/apps. This alone is a huge development that I don't think too many are grasping just yet.
Yes, it is still clunky at times, but the UX and UI is getting better over time. The development model makes it easy for anyone to jump in and build. You are not limited to any particular way of doing things and can create a custom experience for your audience while having access to the entirety of the protocol.
Some resources for people:
Beyond the marketing barf, what makes this a "discovery powerhouse"?
From the description, it doesn't sound any different from Mastodon, or having an email newsletter, or publishing your own website.
Is that different from say, Mastodon?
In general, you have to follow people to discover content you want to see, but it's not a requirement (as outlined above). I definitely think the Nostr experience for people improves dramatically as they follow a few folks.
Someone should really change the marketing CTA.
"A decentralized social network with a chance of working"
I can see why people would think this.
Since that I got an invite (thank you, Sam!) and I'm even more bullish now (though I'm not much of a social media poster myself).
Compared to Nostr it seems like there's a first-party "base" app that most people can use, which has UX very similar to Twitter, with the assumption that people will be able to make their pick of app/moderation/feed/... later based on merit, not lock-in.
It seems like in the recent days/weeks a lot of non-technical various public figures have onboarded Bluesky, thanks to this ease of getting started. Folks that I wouldn't expect there for a while yet.
To any Nostr users - how's that developing there? Based on my cursory look onboarding looks quite a bit more daunting.
Anyway, the Twitter blue checkmark seems to be a blessing for decentralized social networks.
EDIT: Since I already got an email about it 5 mins after writing this - No, I don't have any invite codes, sorry.
> No wait list for this decentralized protocol.
This should soon be the case with Bluesky as well, iirc, since federation seems to be the main thing they're ironing out right now (alongside moderation).
As with all tech protocols, there's potential for more sophisticated things to be built on top of them, but I didn't get a clear sense that Nostr people are interested or serious about product engineering to make this a "Twitter killer" or some other popular buzzword.
There was an interesting discussion on how to limit spam in distributed networks, the primordial problem of any social web endeavor. The two poles seem to be relying on "financial incentives" vs "identity gatekeeping". For those that believe in the power of the free market to regulate tricky social problems, I think Nostr has a lot of promise.
🫂
If you want to solve social issues at a protocol level, there need to be social mechanisms in the protocol. That would honestly be kind of interesting to see. But Nostr is just a reinvented networking stack.
Bluesky will never gain any more traction than Rumble, Truth, Gab, or Mastadon. It will fade into obscurity before even launching just like Clubhouse. Because offering the same exact service, with seemingly no visible changes, does not matter to most people.
They obviously do care about Elon's shenanigans. Celebrities are leaving Twitter, politicians are leaving Twitter, companies are leaving Twitter, news organizations are leaving Twitter. These are the people Twitter should be concerned about because they have the followers and people will go where they go and they are currently going to bluesky.
Nostr will be more like Mastodon was before Elon ... a smallish place for enthusiasts of decentralization, albeit following a different protocol than Mastodon, of course.
Bluesky is already the new Twitter, you can tell. The cool kids all want to be on Bluesky. In effect, the very low rate drip of invites approach they are following, coupled with a virtual megaton of almost entirely gushing, breathless positive stories from the tech press are generating a high pent-up demand and a sense of virality even while it has a tiny userbase. The people running it are very clever, and are clearly doing everything they can to become the alternative for disgruntled Twitter users that Mastodon, Nostr and others are not (and arguably never were trying to be ... Bluesky is, by contrast, trying like heck to be exactly that).
Does this mean Twitter dies? No, I don't think so. What I think it means, though, is that, like the MSM, we will have likely two microblogging platforms that are broken into socio-ideological camps, like we have with most of the other media. It's new for social media, of course (not that there haven't been wing platforms before, but they have been small), but not new for media in general or the internet in general. And one could say that it's actually somewhat surprising that it took so long for this kind of split to happen in social media as well, but it kind of "feels right" that it's happening, given the very divergent ways that people have reacted to Twitter over the past year. It seems "right" that there should be separate services for people based on the kind of ideology and views they prefer, since this is how pretty much everyone rolls in every other aspect of the media already anyway.
The first one is that there's no such thing as left and right. Two left wingers can have completely different opinions on nuclear and covid. So what political topic do you split the services based on? People seem to unite based on who they are against, but does that really work in the long run?
The second is that with newspapers, you're fluid and jump around. With your social circle, you build it to keep it. I'm following people from 13 years ago on Twitter. It works because social circles don't focus on politics. I can discuss fitness with my PT, programming with a university professor, and racing with a driver. Losing out on half of the population because you disagree on topic X seems crazy to me.
Users like you probably are going to want to be where the largest and most diverse group of people is, which will be the largest service. That is currently, by far and away, Twitter. Moving those people away from Twitter, if they do not already have a strong motivation (either socio-political, or use policy, or because their friends and follows have all moved somewhere else), is unlikely, but in any case most of the users who are like you are going to be with the largest service. I doubt that we will have two equally sized services, at least not for quite some time, because many people who are not very disaffected with Twitter will not move.
The most disaffected groups are the ones who have the highest incentive to move to a new platform, and currently many of these fall into the "disgruntled" category, often for socio-political reasons. It makes sense to think that these will be over-represented in the group that makes a serious effort to move to the new platform (if you look at who comprised the surge of users of Mastodon, or something like Post, you can see that this is definitely the case). Bluesky will, at least initially, be like this, I think. In the long run, though, you're right -- most people will want to be with the larger, diverse platform.
Mastodon always presented some dealbreakers for the "clout-seeking" demographic, since ActivityPub doesn't flatten the space into one high school class ranking(basic KPIs for this goal like numbers of likes don't synchronize across instances), and instances that behave badly are treated by the broader network as "nails to be hammered down", for better or for worse. And nostr likewise centers visible exchange-of-value which is too grubby and nakedly commercial for the upper crust. So I agree that Bluesky is "it" in the realm of attracting Twitter users, for the moment.
But any of these three could absorb features of the others in time. That tends to happen in tech.
It will be interesting to see how things shake out, certainly, and where we are in the microblogging space in, say, 6 months.
I imagine a device like a router or an Apple TV, that you connect at home. Then, you own it, everything you post is on your little device. Maybe you pay a few bucks a months so you can upload an encrypted backup in the cloud somewhere.
There's obviously downsides to it, but I think I would buy such a device.
Normies use keypairs every time they connect to an https site. They just don't know it, nor is there any reason why they should.
Because this is early days?
Surely you don't imagine that every product emerges in its final form?
Maybe instead you could explain why they couldn't. As I noted, people seem to be able to use TLS to make secure connections to websites without generating keypairs from the command line, or whatever.
Edit: and in fact this has been done.
https://nostr.how/en/guides/iris
Type in your name. Hit "Go". Done.
I don't understand how moderation or handling the large transfers of duplicate data between relays and clients will work.
Federation frees individual users from key management (a trivial issue for HN users, but a big pain for less technical users).
Instance admins can handle spam and abuse for entire communities, and what is acceptable varies between communities.
Data can be aggregated per instance instead of independently fetched per user. For example, previews for external links can be cached per instance, since you trust your instance. In a fully distributed system it'd be either vulnerable to manipulation (since HTTPS doesn't offer a way for others to cryptographically verify data originates from a URL, without contacting the origin server) or every user would have to fetch a link preview themselves, which has DDoS potential and tracking risks.
Going through and implementing the nips for nostr is really fun. You can make a mvp version of a client in a afternoon.
No need to dig into a black box protocol concept and implementation hiding in the corner of the ‘net
yuck.
I'm not interested in being blasted with prophetic bitcoin nonsense 24/7 on every thread or on any conversation I have with people.
I opened a random web client and saw too many 'cryptidots' on this nostr thing.
No way this will grow.
As long as there is no real value in the real world it will remain inflated by confidence, which reeks of scam. And no one pizza place here or a bitcoin atm there does not make a difference. So far the only real goods and services crypto has traded at scale are on an illegal black market.