Private jet sales likely to reach highest ever level this year, report says | Hacker News Reader

Private jet sales likely to reach highest ever level this year, report says

theguardian.com

58 pointssandebert66 comments

Private jets seem like a great starting point for mandating use of net-zero synthetic jet fuel. Sure it's 5x the cost of regular fuel, but fuel isn't the biggest cost of owning a private jet, and these people are amongst the least price sensitive.

Also helps companies that make synthetic net-zero fuels achieve economies of scale faster, thus paving the way for net-zero fuels for wider adoption in other industries, e.g. trucking

For those just as curios, https://www.iata.org/en/iata-repository/pressroom/fact-sheet...

Not really, the aircraft industry has been trying for 30+ years to remove lead from aviation fuel. It's incredibly difficult because of the wide variety of engines, the regulation involved, and the fact that failed engines can easily lead to death (and fuel is a common-mode failure). Private jets also fly relatively rarely.

We should really start with powerplants. It's ridiculous to still be getting the vast majority of our electricity from fossil fuels. There is very little risk to human life there, and massive potential benefit. Many of these plants run 24/7 so you get massive benefits.

There is no lead in Jet A1, as used on private jets, airliners, military aircraft, etc.

Lead is only still part of AvGas, used on piston-engined general aviation aircraft. It’s finally being phased out now.

"net-zero"-whatever is most likely a dishonest thing. We should mandate that every private jet ownership should come with a mandatory greenhouse gas sequestration and storage amount per year, all independently accounted. No bullshit like "buying" patches of Amazonian forest and claiming them as a compensations for emissions. Only real compensation should be accepted - emit X tons of gasses -> extract same amount from the atmosphere.

No industrial scale extraction exists or it's all already booked? Stay grounded for a while and fly coach :) .

Here’s an idea: let’s make commercial air travel suck less. Then maybe there is less incentive for private jet travel.

Not sure why this is downvoted. All of the security stuff layered on top of today's commercial air travel makes it often slower for short haul flights than driving.

You forget the exclusivity angle: why fly with the plebs if you can afford not to?

It's been over 20 years. I've given up on TSA security theatre ever going away. Heck, I barely remember what air travel was like before 9/11 (I was a teenager) - "zoomers" meanwhile have never known a sane air travel experience. For them this is just "the way it is".

I still remember when one could give tickets to soemone else, the ticket was the entry and the only screening was a metal detector. The sad thing is, the reinforced cockpit doors probably did more than any airport screening above that.

It will never go away because TSA === lots of jobs. That being said, they have created a pay to win system now. Sick of long lines and taking off your shoes? TSA Pre check is a few hundred dollars and now you can skip those lines.

Sick of long TSA Pre check? Clear just might be the option for you!

Travel internationally often? Global entry could be your for a low low price.

It's honestly frustrating because its a pretty clear pay more and have a better experience system that feels really gross since its all supposed to be about security.

But how would that be accomplished? (Genuinely asking, not doubting) For all of the cynicism, security theatre does serve an actual non-inane purpose.

Clearly this growing number of folks know some financial angle that I don't. Its a exclusive club and I ain't in it.

Clearly, folks with money aren't putting that money where their mouths are with respect to their climate change signaling.

Oh, I see people disagree with this take. I'd like to know where it's wrong. They certainly could pressure each other so that only detestable "baddies" are left flying in private jets...

What? You mean Prince Harry jetting over to the world climate conference and telling us peasants to keep down the heating during winter ... or else ... is a hypocrite? No way!

Technically even that can be net(!)-positive but I doubt that most of the users of private jets are using them for helpful ends.

Not if even more people don't do anything because of their hypocrisy.

Only if the same thing cannot be accomplished if they flew commercial

Technically he could attend these conferences by zoom instead of flying a private jet but somehow that’s never an option for the rich climate-scolds.

Well…. They DID when video conferencing was unique, expensive and exclusive many years ago! (Live via exclusive satellite link from far-away-place)

Be glad because these are the people that are burning our future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

yeah i think i'll take being rich with a private jet instead of being middle class while still burning our future.

The average western citizen might emit more than what is sustainable already but we're talking about people that are emitting orders of magnitude more than that.

well, you're doing a fantastic job of outsourcing their guilt, i'm sure they sleep just fine at night at 30k feet while simultaneously convincing you to reduce your quality of life.

But there are orders of magnitude fewer ultra rich than there are average western citizens. Focusing on every westerner reducing their GHG emissions a bit would have far more substantial results than even completely eliminating 100% of the GHG emissions from the ultra rich.

The ultra rich have orders of magnitude more influence over politics, regulation, and private business than the average western citizen, so I would think that focusing on the ultra rich in one way or another should yield pretty substantial results.

If you're working rather than owning, that's your first 'mistake'

How do you correct that mistake without working?

Get lucky or marry into wealth.

Often you don’t, you likely have to keep working while also working on a transition plan.

I’m still working on my transition plan twenty years later. Some things are just not easy.

The first step is to take ownership as a worker so that you at least take what you make. You can investigate worker syndicalism, sociocracy, etc for ways to do that with the help of peers.

I can see why: flying commercial is a humiliating experience.

As far as I'm concerned the biggest reasons to strike it rich are flying private and having a private chef.

> having a private chef

now we are talking!

A private chef is about a order of magnitude cheaper than a private jet.

For us peons, there are lots of things that we can spend money on to make our lives easier / better. Some things we think will make life easier or better don't, but many do.

But from what I hear, a private jet is the last step. Once you have that (and all the other things on the list cheaper than it, like a private chef), there's nothing else you can buy that will actually make your life easier / better. You can buy another house or something, but once you have 2 or 3, what does another one add?

And private jets are accessible to hundred-millionaires. Wealth beyond that is for power or competition or status.

Who exactly are buying these jets? I thought money was getting tighter and spending it on jets in that sense sounds weird. Or is it that there is that much cash around and it might as well be spend on consumption instead waiting for investments?

In recent years there have been rises in the ability to share a private jet, so it may be that less individuals are buying private jets but more people are using/flying them.

IIRC they get very heavy corporate use simply because if you are, say, a retail executive flying from location to location, direct on a private jet may be better than small airport to hub, wait, possibly hub to another hub, wait, hub to small airport. It's certainly faster.

As regular airline travel gets more and more expensive and less and less enjoyable, the number of people for whom the price of a first class ticket is immaterial and so decide to just book a jet from NetJets instead will rise.

A small private jet starts at like $2k/hr, so let's say $4k an hour to include all costs. That's higher than a first class ticket but not much higher than 7 or 8 first class tickets.

leasing companies, small airlines, sovereigns, corporations.

an actually private private jet is pretty rare.

I imagine the people that can afford them have some "time is money" argument where they've convinced themselves it's an investment.

You’d have to be a billionaire for that math to have a chance to balance.

I think it’s mostly a status symbol, like a yacht.

Edit: I’m talking about owning a private jet. Renting one is quite different.

Across the USA in a private jet rental is something like $15k. You don't have to be a billionaire to drop $15k to make your life easier for 5-6 hours. You go from having to go through security, hassle, baggage etc, to driving your car up to the steps of the plane and across to a smaller airport right near where you want to be.

Do you mean you can pay to avoid TSA ?

Why is the law different for the average guy who flies and for the private jets ? I thought everyone had to go through security.

It also shows that TSA is useless. Otherwise, someone would just have rented a jet to hijack it.

Lastly, most workers can wait 2 hours at the airport to save $15k. You have to be a billionaire to figure out that 2 hours are worth 15k

> You have to be a billionaire to figure out that 2 hours are worth 15k

A multi-millionaire can prob. already drop 15k. Also, not 2 hours, if to go to your destination would require a connection or 2, while private flight is direct.

it still shocks me that some individuals can afford both the tons of CO2 and the money just for frivolous comfort.

Especially since we are in the day and age of the media and zoom meetings. Traveling is no longer necessary for most business purposes, but is mostly leisure or convenience.

In the meantime, you are blamed for global warming, for driving to the supermarket to get beef. And you have to pay hefty carbon tax on car fuel, while planes and jets are exempt.

And as a society, we can't give a home to everyone, because it would cost money to build back what banks foreclosed and buldozzered 15 years ago.

but what if you have money ?

go ahead, buy a high tech jet that costs hundreds of homes, and spray carbontrails over the poor neibourhoods near the airport, and directly into the ozone layer.

You would be burdened with taxes and carbon allowance if you couldn't afford that.

If we just had carbon taxes then it would be taken care of. Carbon taxes make so much sense form so many perspectives. it’s a shame it’s not a more popular idea.

There’s still some moral issues in my view from ridiculous consumption by rich people, but if taxed appropriately it would be better than it is now.

Do you mean you can pay to avoid TSA ?

Exactly, no TSA.

Money getting tighter is what has led to higher returns to owners

Part of the explanation could be that the class of super-rich people is growing (along with the class of poor people, while the middle class is shrinking). Google for “High Net Worth Individual” (HNWI) population.

No mention of Covid anywhere.

I would expect high-net-worth individuals that value their health and comfort would jump at the chance to reduce their potential exposure by flying private.

not sure why you are being downvoted. I dread being on a plane with possibly sick people coughing without a mask

An n95 mask is a lot cheaper than a private jet

Sure - but if you're rich enough to be able to fly without wearing a mask, maybe you spend the money.

But you (or I at least) still get stressed with people coughing. For me, it's a whole stress that begins at leaving for the airport, until I'm home/hotel

Also... kids, noisy people, etc...

Another unexpected driver could be the increasingly high comfort level in business and first class on long-haul flights with no domestic alternatives (yes, JetBlue mint and Delta one are nice, but are they widely available enough domestically?)

"Business class" on most domestic flights in US would be called "premium economy" on most long haul airlines. Yet it can easily cost more in cash than an actual business class seat on a long haul airline.

Domestic flights really should level up on their premium options. Convert all the non-lay-flat "business class" seats to just "premium economy" and start getting lay-flat business class seats between hubs multiple times a day. These seats will always be filled with actual executives or people with the points to upgrade to them. The fuel bill still gets paid, less private jets in the sky, and a move towards more competitive pricing on comfortable seats for the rest of us.

Very recent example of what this could look like: FlyDubai (a narrowbody discount middle eastern carrier) just announced a very nice looking lay-flat business class option: https://onemileatatime.com/news/flydubai-business-suite/

One major issue especially in the US is airport congestion. There are just too many flights operating out of too few commercial airports. This configuration would increase congestion as it means more flights needed to service the same number of passengers.

Private jets avoid much of this congestion by performing most of their ops at smaller regional airports.

And good luck building new commercial airports, nearly impossible nowadays.

Couldn't this be partially resolved by converting routes with 6 departures a day on regional jets to 2 departures a day on 737/A320s? I'm thinking of the SFO-Southern California routes right now where Skywest flys the small regional jets.

That could help, and modifying landing fees might be a good way to do this. Currently I believe landing fees are proportional to size/weight which doesn't make a lot of sense since a small regional jet takes just as much space in the ATC system and nearly as much space in the terminal as an A320.

Is there any data on how much of private jet usage is for urgent medical requirements, government contracted transport and transporting specialist workers quickly? Maybe this report is taking private to not include that usage, but I can't find it.

I'm sure that data exists, but the first two are almost by definition "not private jet" even if they use small jets. US Customs flies various fixed wing assets that are small but are not "private": https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/air-sea/aircraft-and-mar...

Specialist workers quickly is also going to be a smallish amount, though I'm sure there are some companies that have a corporate jet that can be used for it; most will just pay whatever exorbitant cost to get the tech on the next flight.

If you wanted to dig into it the FAA registration databases would probably be the place to start.

The only figure I found in the article is Elon “was responsible for more than 2,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions.”

Is there a compilation of emissions comparing across private jet owners, commercial aviation and perhaps other industries? It seems like only in the last few years there has been this microscopic focus on private jets. I would like to know if this is just an easy target or if this is a real issue.

Ironically, these same people are lecturing me about my carbon footprint.

Why should flying private jets be legal?

In a perfect world it would at least be taxed heavily to make it uneconomical but obviously that's not gonna happen for obvious reasons.

While public options for transportation continues to get worse because of climate taxes, like some countries taxing air travel to make it unaffordable.

These people have the option to just say no and buy a private jet, the public can't.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com