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Comment by nullityrofl | Hacker News Reader

> What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally.

Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts.

EDIT: Since this is news to some people who seem to think that the entirety of Europe is on a moral high horse, here's some references. There's little morality in intelligence.

Europe spies on its own citizens: https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...

Germany helped the US spy on EU allies: https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b...

France admits they spied on the US: https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar...

Germany was found to be spying on the US: https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...

The Dutch helped the US spy on the EU: https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on...

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You keep providing more and more evidence that the US is involved in spying most of its allies. Notice how almost all of these cases are about some 3rd country assisting the US in spying someone else?

You are just proving that the US is not behaving like a positive force for the world, which was entirely my point. I never said that European countries are saints. I just fear with good reason a US hegemony given their behavior.

> Notice how almost all of these cases are about some 3rd country assisting the US in spying someone else?

How is 2/5 "almost all"?

The US hegemony is rightfully feared, but only because on their relatively unchecked power, not because of any inherent ethical superiority.

You mean 2 of 5 and those 2 still involve the EU spying on it's allies, right? So all 5 examples of the EU spying on its allies a thing that you said there was "no proof whatsoever" of?

I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world.

> I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world.

Spoken like a true devil's advocate. Apparently you have no opinion, you just want to refute mine. The fervor with which you scrambled for evidence to only tangentially counter my argument suggests me otherwise, but oh well.

If all you want is evidence that the US is currently not a positive net for the world, you just need to look at the work CIA has done. You won't find anything comparable on any other country. And the fact that every nation has secret services means nothing. It's how powerful those services are and what they are used for.

By the way you realize that other countries being bad doesn't make the US any better? If nothing you're helping me prove that NATO altogether is a band of criminals, which I might have to thank you for, afterall.

> Apparently you have no opinion, you just want to refute mine.

I do have a point, you just don't like it. The point is thus: Europe spies on their allies and enemies just as much as the United States does.

> You won't find anything comparable on any other country. And the fact that every nation has secret services means nothing.

I think you may have forgotten that Russia exists.

> By the way you realize that other countries being bad doesn't make the US any better?

I never said it does. I said that spying on other countries isn't the deciding factor.

> Europe spies on their allies and enemies just as much as the United States does.

"Just as much" is simply false, as the extent and scope of USA espionage is unrivaled in Europe.

> I said that spying on other countries isn't the deciding factor.

Spying per se might be not, the intent behind it clearly does tho. You might spy to exert your power over or disrupt another country, or you might spy as a precautionary measure. We all know which country has the goal to make the world unipolar.

> I think you may have forgotten that Russia exists.

I obviously didn't, and I still believe Russia foreign interference isn't comparable with what the US has done.

The point is everybody is spying on everybody else. Every nation has spy agencies, and what they do is spying, it’s right there in the name. It’s just that the US operation is bigger and better funded, and has the biggest network of allies. This is not a shocking surprise to anyone in government anywhere, or anyone who knows almost anything at all about the history of intelligence work and espionage. The UK spied on the US throughout WW2. It’s how the world has always worked.

As for being a positive force in the world, that depends what they do with the information. It’s a different concern.

The last article seems to be about the Danish.

There was in fact a small reaction[0][1] and it's naive to think that the espionage systems and efforts USA and European countries have are in any way comparable.

> Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts.

Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite.

.0: https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-...

.1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest...

You mean like Europe's use of Pegasus?

https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...

> Multiple European governments are using advanced surveillance tools to spy on their own people

As I've already answered you on another comment and as the very first line of the article you shared points out, Pegasus has been used for domestic espionage. The issue at hand is foreign espionage.

Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies? Allies not OK, citizens OK?

Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/denmark-helped...

Yes, EU nations are somehow totally incapable of a thing every country is doing. That is naive.

> Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies?

Provide evidence please, but we both know there is none.

> Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU?

Yet another case of the US spying on its allies.

Edit: You keep editing your comment so it's hard to properly answer.

> Allies not OK, citizens OK?

I've already wrote you here[0] that I find both cases despicable, but we're simply talking about US foreign espionage here.

.0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35765353

> Yet another case of the US spying on its allies.

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or just didn't bother reading.

Denmark was complicit in the US spying on Germany, Sweden and Norway.

https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on...

France and Germany both have admitted they have spied on the White House.

https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar...

https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...

Germany has been found to helping the US spy on EU allies:

https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b...

This is a childish and naïve stance.

Also, I'm not American. You can stop referring to me in the second person.

> Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite.

geopolitics 101? why would any country not have spies and passive surveillance of both enemies and allies that could one day threaten their power/economy?

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