The moon dust problem facing scientists | Hacker News Reader

The moon dust problem facing scientists

bbc.com

76 pointspseudolus33 comments

I did an internship at NASA where I worked on mitigating moon dust. Something that the article doesn't mention is that, without an atmosphere, solar rays electrically charge the dust causing it to stick to everything. I remember reading a series of after action reports from each of the lunar landings discussing how they dealt with the dust. Eventually they started just opening the door after the left the moon so that the dust got sucked out into the vacuum.

It was explained to me that if humanity ever tried to build a long term station on the moon, dealing with dust would be one of the biggest challenges.

What other solutions were discussed? Are there any crazy ones?

My favourite idea is to somehow apply massive amounts of heat to the lunar surface basically melting the given area. Since there is no wind you won't get new dust there.

Not wind as we deal with on earth, but that same process that electrically charges the dust also moves it enough that there's a large cloud of sodium atoms in it it's shadow[0]. That and other elements do travel a bit around the surface. Unsure what kind of fluxes we'd have to deal with, but keeping an area dust free would involve some constant effort.

[0]https://carlschmidt.science/Moon/Moon.html

Chairface Chippendale was just ahead of his time!

Probably simpler to spray some kind of adhesive.

You’re mass-constrained on the Moon. A big parabolic mirror could (slowly) fuse an unlimited amount of regolith.

New dust is constantly showing up, so it’s still a finite area.

https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/leaping-lunar-dust/

There are several projects to electrostatically repel charged dust from surfaces.

My search foo is failing but one of the space youtubers got a live demo in a lab where some dust was applied to a treated material and then a current was applied: the dust flew off instantly.

Every day this effect is shown in commercials for the "swiffer".

I believe this is the video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0k9wIsKKgqo

Yes, thanks.

IIRC, it's horribly abrasive too, yeah?

I'm assuming that that electrical charge you mentioned could be used to capture it with an opposite charged filter?

I work on the field. Moon dust presents quite unique challenges that have been and continue to be studied at NASA and private industry. Regolith gets charge/discharge cycle that naturally pushes the smallest particles upwards. This plus whatever material is forced during landing, regolith will be around any potential structures and equipment that we bring to the moon. The problem is that it gets through seals, it attaches to equipment like sensors and communication, all causing failures. There are many potential solutions, all that are actively being explored at NASA and industry that include active and passive methods. Active include using electromagnetic fields to remove particles. Passive are using materials and/or manual mechanism. It is a very interesting problem that likely requires very radical active solutions.

They are looking at new seal designs, like an inner labyrinthine seal covered by a series of other seals.

Yes, new seal designs have been proposed and prototyped over the years. As far as I know, so take it with a huge grain of salt, no particular design is as of yet hailed as the solution to this problem. There have been multiple NASA technical briefings on the subject since Apollo, with the last one I have seen just a few years ago. These take into account all known solutions proposed by industry and NASA, and the problem just seems to get worse the more we learn about lunar regolith and the lunar environment.

Regolith seems to be an issue that is pervasive to unsealed containers. Doesn't it pose an equal harm then through human orifices by respiration etc?

I thought I read many years ago there is a concern with breathing regolith in. Because regolith is not kind of "smooth" like particles here on Earth, they can get stuck in the lungs causing various health issues.

ie. like asbestos causing lung cancer

Yes. The NASA reports that study the potential effects on health do conclude that due to its particle shape, size, and composition, the fine regolith particles pose a significant danger to human health in prolonged exposure.

Solutions will be quickly iterated once we have feet on the Moon. Hopefully within a few years of that, there will be cheap and reliable solutions. Being able to test with real humans will go so much faster than sandbox tests on Earth.

Awfully optimistic to think that inhabited settlements can withstand a few years of unmitigated regolith exposure

Could be visit and return trips. Just need repeat opportunities to trial various solutions with a person there to inspect/return the results.

Speaking of sandbox testing, here in New Zealand we have a lot of beaches with black iron sand.

It’s very fine and gets absolutely everywhere. A layer is often in beachside houses. You see it in the toilets, it’s in cars, in electronics near beaches, it’s in your hair days later.

It’s stuck inside MRI scanners around town (I work with them).

A finer dust would be a nightmare, as iron sand is bad enough.

For contrast, here are zoomable grains of lunar regolith[1] and random Earth sand[2]. Thus the insane abrasiveness, and use of crushed rock for simulant.

[1] https://virtualmicroscope.org/sites/default/files/html5Asset... [2] https://www.virtualmicroscope.org/sites/default/files/html5A...

> One of the world's largest producers is the Florida-based Exolith Lab which, since its founding in 2017, has produced 80 tonnes (176,370lbs) of lunar and Martian soil simulants.

> [...] But if you do find a good simulant, it can be worth it. The closest matches range in price from $45 (£36) to $150 (£120) per kg (2.2lbs).

How well are these producers of lunar soil simulants are containing it? Any increased incidence of lung cancer/disease in downwind towns?

Are there any known positive benefits or applications for moon dust?

Could exporting some back to earth be useful for anything other than research of the Moon's past or how to better survive there

It’s extraordinarily expensive to transport it back to earth, so almost certainly not. It’s just ground up rock, and we’ve got plenty of rock on earth.

Actual title: “Why scientists are making fake Moon dust”

What parts of the spectrum are affected by the dust?

According to Cave Johnson, moon dust is also quite toxic.

(Quote from the 2011 computer game Portal 2, said by the fictional character “Cave Johnson”, voiced by J. K. Simmons)

   > Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade! Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons; what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down... with the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

It also just happens to be a great portal conductor.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com