Every web search result in Brave Search is now served by our own index
brave.com
brave.com
(For anyone who's ever tried to modify a reservation, the difference is astonishing. If you're booked with the hotel, all kinds of adjustments are at least possible. If you're booked with Booking, Travelocity, Expedia, etc., it's somewhere between hard and hopeless.)
Brave gets it right. Bing, Google and even DuckDuckGo do not.
Also, I assume there is less probability of errors since when you reserve on a travel agent website, your reservation goes through an additional system before it gets to the hotel.
As a side note, I wonder if many people pay attention to reviews outside of extremely low rated places.
My intuition says the opposite. More moving pieces in the system, more fragility in integration of different systems.
The problem is that the phrase “I assume there is less probability of errors” is not attached to a condition.
It’s a bit like that revolving ballerina dancer illusion
Nevertheless, there is clearly a more clear way I could have wrote that comment.
I became a "rewards member" with a major hotel chain once. Never again. The deluge of spam I got was intolerable.
The hotel has a room they want to sell for $100 a night. They can list it on their website for $100 a night, and after paying credit card processing fees, they get to keep the remainder.
The hotel now lists the same room on one of the booking sites that charges a x% fee for facilitating the transaction and providing discovery for the hotel (getting the room in front of interested customers). The hotel can either take a x% haircut, or charge x% more. So that same room might be $110 per night now instead of $100.
It's a business decision, and not all operators will make the same one, naturally.
You see similar things on online marketplaces, such as Amazon. Amazon's commission fee can be anywhere from 15%-30%, depending on the category. Unless there's huge margin baked into the product price, you may very well be paying 15-30% more for the product on Amazon. Not always, of course, as it does come down the the business and the strategy they've chosen.
(It's going to be the Booking.com ones.)
Specifically with airfare, a 3rd party is not allowed to sell for less than the airline directly, so it's always better options since it is much easier to reschedule/cancel/refund directly with the airline. Plus, if you travel a lot, it is better to find a favorite airline and stick to them. Any bonus "features" offered by a 3rd party I can assure you are either not in your interest or actually a scam.
I don't know if the pricing rules applies to hotels, but I'd rather pay extra then get to the hotel and be screwed over last minute because some 3rd party is trying something "clever" behind the scenes and it turns out it ruins your travel plans.
The last couple of flights I booked with Star Alliance were the same price on Lufthansa.com etc., but I got free checked luggage on booking.com/expedia and just hand luggage on lh.com.
I have never found this to be true unfortunately. I have some conference related travel coming up, and the conference made some deal with Hilton for a special rate. Hilton's link wouldn't work, and I made 5 calls trying to get them to offer a discounted rate to no avail. Eventually had to book at a discounted rate on hotwire (same as the conference's rate), which presumably made Hilton 20-30% less. At scale, hotels are just operated like commodities. Unless you are really special (loyal and big spender), you won't get any special treatment.
Lifetime Platinum Marriott member here.
The special treatment is OK. It is nice to get room upgrades and freebies, but that's little stuff. It doesn't get you a room magically when they are sold out, and you don't magically get a better rate when prices are high.
The biggest benefit if you're traveling a lot is your points accrual rate is higher with status, which lets you more rapidly exchange points for things. The only sane way to spend points of course, is more hotel stays. Nothing else comes close value-wise. I recall running the numbers on that (points/dollar ratio), and you'd be a brazen fool to spend points on merchandise - when you compare the ratio of hotel stays to merchandise point cost, you realize that they have a 3-4x markup on the merchandise.
That's when you spend your points. Though it depends severely on the brand. Marriott and Hilton are no longer great. But Wyndham and Hyatt are pretty amazing. Starwood, used to be good until Marriott bought them out.
I suspect this is partly predatory pricing on behalf of Expedia (charge the hotel 30%, discount the price 20%, get all the bookings and take the difference.) Yet I really can't justify spending the extra $400 to stand the moral high ground. Seems like something the hotels need to work out.
They used to at least offer the same price and add in little things like "free wifi" and breakfast. I haven't seen that offer since the pre-covid years.
I've assumed they do this as a combination of lazy tax plus they don't want to undercut aggregators as these might stop showing them if they know people will go direct to the hotel after searching.
On the other hand, that always includes free wifi and breakfast.
haskell megaparsec operators -> should return [0] somewhere high in the result set. Found it on the third page of Brave Search. For comparison, it's the very first result on Google, second page for Bing, and the third page for DuckDuckGo.
Sure, it's a bit obscure, and I don't even write that much Haskell these days. But it's calibrated to determine whether I can rely on the search engine to quickly surface what I need to be productive, and whether I can trust its 'negative results' (I don't see what I want on the results page -> I need to refine my query or take a different approach). The version number returned in the URL also shows how well the engine handles keeping up with versioned documentation pages and aggregating 'link juice' between them.
I try this on every search engine alternative that pops up on HN. Very, very few pass. I find it often works like an adversarial example, yielding completely nonsensical results.
[0] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/megaparsec-5.2.0/docs/Te... (or any other megaparsec-#.#.# version)
Edit: I didn't mean this to be an insult, I pay for Kagi and use it exclusively. But actually, the Kagi and Google first page of results look fairly different for this query, so Kagi is doing more curation and ordering than I realized.
$25/mo is unfortunately a little steep because their lower priced option with 700 searches/month is comically small. On just my work browser I have 4000 Google searches last month. Doesn't count my personal laptop or phone. It's really hard to compete with $0/mo. for Google + AdBlock. I really do like Kagi better but $25/mo. is Tailscale + Notion + Spotify.
To me, the 700 soft limit seems absurd so I'm curious to hear how you interact with the product.
I average 50-100 searches per work day and 10-20 searcher per off day (totalling 1-2.5k per month). But I don't feel I'm using search in a particularly strange way.
For example, if I need to know how the new WidgetBean in SpringBoot works I'll usually end up making ~10 queries related to it before I move on to a new area of research.
E.g., I'll search "SpringBoot WidgetBean release notes" then "SpringBoot WidgetBean examples" or "WidgetBean test double", "WidgetBean in MockMvc test", "WidgetBean PowerMock known issues in MockMvc test", "WidgetBean FooService interation in MockMvc test SpringBoot 3".
Essentially, when I'm searching I go wide to survey the information landscape, then refine my search term as I discover what I actually need to know
This quickly balloons as I'm expected to know many things at $dayjob :)
What does it look like when you search?
Date (UTC) Searches
Apr 28, 2023 23
Apr 27, 2023 11
Apr 26, 2023 24
Apr 25, 2023 4
Apr 24, 2023 18
Apr 23, 2023 7
Apr 22, 2023 1
Apr 21, 2023 6
Apr 20, 2023 7
Apr 19, 2023 10
Apr 17, 2023 18
Apr 16, 2023 1
Apr 15, 2023 14
Apr 14, 2023 22
Apr 13, 2023 7
Apr 12, 2023 18
Apr 11, 2023 11
Apr 10, 2023 13
Apr 9, 2023 4
Apr 8, 2023 15
Apr 7, 2023 7
Apr 6, 2023 6
Apr 5, 2023 7
Apr 4, 2023 12
Apr 3, 2023 19
Apr 2, 2023 11
Apr 1, 2023 15
The last few months: (UTC) Searches
Apr 2023 311
Mar 2023 495
Feb 2023 313
Jan 2023 434
Dec 2022 386
Nov 2022 396
Oct 2022 425
How I search:I typically start with one of the same type of queries as you did above, then I open every interesting-looking page from the first query in a nested tab (I use tree style tabs in my "research" browser) and start reading them, ctrl-clicking again to open interesting links in new tabs nested in a new level beneath, closing pages that was clearly useless and bookmarking in raindrop if I immediately sense that the oage I am on is something I will need again.
Once I have exhausted this tree, at least temporarily, I start a new search - like you do - in a new top level tab anf create a new tree from it.
To be fair this is why the $25 plan exists but if the economics are to be believed is totally unsustainable. For me 1.5¢/search is a really awkward spot. Fixed cost unlimited and GPT cheap pricing of $0.000002/token hit "use without thinking" status but at 1.5/2.5¢ I could actually rack up a rather large bill by accident so it causes me to use the service less.
And so I easily make 50–100 searches per day when I don’t even feel I’m actively searching for anything. And if I'm in a research mode, the count goes beyond that.
I noticed that only after I’ve subscribed to Kagi. After realising that I’ll burn throw the plan’s allowance very quickly, I tried doing most of my “dumb” searches via Google, and more important stuff — via Kagi. But that introduces a cognitive load, and kills the point of using a paid search engine.
Perhaps, I should switch to the $25 plan, but I can’t justify paying $250–$300 annually for a search engine, even though I have nothing against the idea of paying for one. Unfortunately, it’s too much for me. Nevertheless, I’m rooting for Kagi because it ticks all the boxes for me, and provides value. I hope that operational costs go down, and more people could use it.
But I fear they're going to have to get their prices (and relatedly, cost per search) down considerably before I can recommend them to anyone again.
I was fortunate enough to be grandfathered into an unlimited plan until March, but I don't think I know any professionals, e.g. people using a search engine to get work done, which search less than 24 times per day.
How can I know?
The magic is proven by the fact that Kagi mostly respect my queries (or accept my bug reports if I can prove they didn't) despite being built on the shaky foundation of Bing and modern Google.
Also there is some good old fashioned engineering there, like allowing me to pin, prioritize higher or lower or block certain sites.
DDG and Bing (no surprise there) fails at it too, but Google actually works.
Sometimes I want the Booking.com.
Otherwise you'd fan the flames of the predatory brochure websites industry.
If Google always prioritized official websites, dollars to donuts, people wouldn't like it.
Google gets it right at the first page. Bing doesn't get it. DDG doesn't.
(Ad) and (sponsored) were ok at first, but then they became the first screenful of results on most devices.
That’s when my childhood BFF google went off the rails.
“Best way to modify the xyz on a raspberry pi 4”
I stopped using DuckDuckGo because it always failed at searches like this compared to Google. Brave was ok
I can think of no valid reason why a (supposedly privacy-respecting) email relay service should require a browser extension to be installed.
This made me realize DuckDuckGo may not actually value privacy. I stopped trusting all of its services.
Doesn't the very act of installing something on your devices increase their technical ability to collect information about you and your devices? That doesn't sound very privacy-oriented.
Apple is a regular company and gets points for adding privacy features. DDG? “Nah, F that, they suggested I run code on my device for a brand-new unrelated service. Reprehensible.”
Most privacy oriented companies don't care about your data, but they need to be able to see diagnostic information about your session for when things don't work. Oh and guess what? Things don't work for many users due to all kinds of crazy stuff, with viruses, proxies, crap internet, crap browsers, crappier browser extensions, or just plain user stupidity causing 99% of it.
Diagnostic data and basic telemetry allows software engineers to find the root cause.
I can answer this one: they're fine with not knowing who anyone is, but they're trying to make sure that each account maps to one real person — they're trying to prevent spammers from registering thousands of accounts to use to send spam, and from continuously registering more accounts whenever they get banned.
A browser extension that feeds their service a heartbeat packet every once in a while from a particular IP address, is a Proof of Identity. It ties the email account accessed through that browser, to a browser installation of the extension, such that you can only actively use as many email accounts as you have devices x installed browsers (which might be a surprisingly high number to you, a normal person with legitimate use-cases for multiple email accounts; but is still a problematically low number compared to the number of accounts the average spammer wants to register — especially when most of those accounts get banned in short order.)
This is a workaround for the fact that there's as-of-yet no such thing as an "anonymous identity verification service" — something like an OAuth IdP that deduplicates users on the client-to-IdP side through strong identity verification on registration (photo of your passport, webcam picture with this hand gesture, you know the drill); but then protects client anonymity on the IdP-to-service side. If you had to SSO to your DDG email through such a service, then they very likely wouldn't be asking you to install the extension.
There are companies that do privacy but they’re usually too small to be noticed outside the crowd of extremely privacy conscious people.
Mozila is a famous one though. Yup, even after their Pocket fiasco and some more I do believe they try to real and long term privacy. DDG is just hustling to stand apart and then maybe hope for a financial exit. (Have had a really bad experience with the company, other than using their product - their search is unusable though - that told me they do not have a respectable culture as an organisation either).
I just put "the 252 boutique hotel" into Google (without quotes) and the first non-ad result is the hotel's own website. It's also first in Brave. And first in Bing. So no difference here.
Generally in my experience, I've never had a problem finding a hotel's website via Google.
It's even more difficult when trying to find the official site for a business I'm unfamiliar with.
That's utterly backwards IME. On Booking.com, most modifications are the push of a button (that, crucially, is right there in the UI that I already know) and if I need to do something complex I can send a message and they'll sort it and get back to me. On a boutique hotel website, maybe I'll get a phone number that I have to look up the international dialing code for and then call in that country's business hours, if their website isn't just completely broken.
By booking with the actual hotel's web site, you at least know you have a room. If the price of that certainty is a little bit of extra UX friction (or making a phone call, which I'll soon be able to delegate to an AI anyway), that sounds just fine.
What you are experiencing is either the hotel manager verbally committing to rooms and not logging them into the computer to try and skim money, or they had something happen that impacted availability (no hot water, housekeeping couldn't turn over rooms, etc)
I think in the first case, they gave me a refund and I rebooked another through hotwire last minute. In the other case, the area was very booked up and I had to pay double to get a comparable room. So I had to send hotwire the invoice and they refunded the rate plus enough to cover the more expensive option. Both times was a huge inconvenience but that is sort of the price you pay for cheap 3rd party bookings.
On the receiving side, this is not pleasant, but not the end of the world. On a business trip I can get a human travel agent on the phone who can find an available room and if it means a $100 taxi bill each way to get to a nearby town, so be it.
In the boutique + arbitrary case, what you want is to talk to a real person, explain your issue, and get some kind of free-text note added to your booking in a way that staff will actually follow the instructions in it. You also want this to potentially increase the cost of your stay (rather than your request being denied on the basis that such a modification would increase the cost of your stay.)
If you book through a booking website, and then you speak to the booking agent to make such a modification, they will have no ability to add the note to your booking in the hotel's computer in such a way that the staff will take it seriously; nor even, necessarily, the ability to confirm that that modification is something that the hotel can do for you. (They can call the hotel... but they're just as likely to be brushed off as you are.)
If you book through a booking website, and then you speak to the hotel, they will tell you that they can't help you, because they want to charge you more, but they don't have the ability to charge you anything, since they're not billing you; they're billing the booking agency. And the booking agency itself has no way for a hotel to add an SKU for this kind of customization. (If it did, it'd be abused by unscrupulous hotels.) They'll then tell you that they can fix your problem if they cancel your agency booking and then re-book it through the hotel itself... but in so doing, you might not be able to keep your reservation.
If you book through the hotel, you can just speak with the hotel, and enter into whatever private direct customer-to-business deals you like with them to negotiate whatever kind of special service you want from them.
Being able to write a message and have them get back to me (even if all they're doing behind the scenes is calling the hotel) is a much better UX than having to make a phone call during business hours, particularly when there's a language barrier.
> If you book through a booking website, and then you speak to the hotel, they will tell you that they can't help you, because they want to charge you more, but they don't have the ability to charge you anything, since they're not billing you; they're billing the booking agency. And the booking agency itself has no way for a hotel to add an SKU for this kind of customization. (If it did, it'd be abused by unscrupulous hotels.) They'll then tell you that they can fix your problem if they cancel your agency booking and then re-book it through the hotel itself... but in so doing, you might not be able to keep your reservation.
> If you book through the hotel, you can just speak with the hotel, and enter into whatever private direct customer-to-business deals you like with them to negotiate whatever kind of special service you want from them.
Meh, that seems like a bullshit excuse to me. If they're selling me some special add-on service, surely they can bill me for it independently of my booking. If I'm already going to the trouble of calling them (ugh), having to give my credit card details separately is not making that a whole lot worse.
Here’s something else — the most critical part of a booking — the booking itself. Go talk to third party aggregator chat bot when you realise you don’t even have a booking that you booked.
4-5 days later if you’re lucky you’ll receive an apology email if you’re lucky, which mentions that they do not want you have that experience and they’ve send it for feedback to the relevant team.
I rarely book hotels via third party aggregators now. Either direct or I use my employee’s travel assistance parter portal where I have same protections as my work travel just that I’ll have to pay from my pockets.
Don't get me wrong, generally not a fan of middlemen. But the experience when booking a hotel directly comes down to the owners/management, and it's going to vary wildly compared to one of these big aggregators.
In the UK there are large chains such as Travelodge who have pulled out from booking.com entirely and made people go to their site.
But, sure, I'm obviously an idiot! I'm just over here drooling stupidly while I get better and/or cheaper hotel rooms.
The annoying thing is that should so obviously be the case! Booking direct should always be cheaper and better, right? But I've found that even if booking.com is cheaper the hotel refuses to match the price when booking directly. And they never told me about any loyalty scheme :/
Which is maybe as much of an argument as any, if it had put pressure on the processors to minimize or eliminate the fee and find alternative revenue streams to sustain themselves and build out the network. Instead we got a world where the fee has been static forever and the gains from automation have gone to cashback and rewards programs for customers, ultimately making it more expensive to pay with cash.
[1] https://i.imgur.com/XtDkLZj.png
What privacy concerns are you alleviating by not signing up for the hotels loyalty program? They are going to ask for ID when you get there and many require a credit card hold.
In general, the Hotel would not be offering a rewards program if it did not benefit them more than it cost. At the very least they are going to use your "free account" to try to get you to use that Hotel (chain) more.
Who do you think is more likely to sell your information to third parties - a hotel brand that has every incentive to keep your information to themselves or an aggregator?
> cost. At the very least they are going to use your "free account" to try to get you to use that Hotel (chain) more.
And a third party aggregator won’t try to get you to use their site more?
Every single hotel I have been to already requires your ID and records your information at check in. In fact, it is required by pretty much all city laws in the US.
I also would not want to stay in a hotel that does not require it.
So far I do not receive any junk mail other than credit card offers, which I take advantage of for the bonus.
Booking.com was zero help at all when I called them. None. They couldn't find or book me another hotel, and basically just told me that there was nothing they could do besides refund my money.
There are many, many stories like this.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like Booking. I think it's a great way for smaller properties to get visibility without having to build and maintain that web presence themselves. But when it goes wrong, don't expect them to go to bat for you. They are incentivized to keep making money, and threatening to delist hotels for fucking over customers when the hotel clearly messed up is clearly not a game they have decided to play.
I always book directly with the hotel if I can, because, if you do that, the shit that I mentioned just doesn't happen. Sure, if it's double the price, I'll roll the dice with Booking. But it basically never is. If it's something like 5-10% of the nightly price extra, I'll pay that premium to not have to deal with any BS. Usually it's the exact same price anyway, if it's an available option (there are some hotels that literally only survive via Booking these days).
> Booking.com was zero help at all when I called them. None. They couldn't find or book me another hotel, and basically just told me that there was nothing they could do besides refund my money.
I get that you were in a very difficult position, but if there weren’t any hotel rooms, what were you expecting Booking.com to do? And what did the hotel do to help you?
> I always book directly with the hotel if I can, because, if you do that, the shit that I mentioned just doesn't happen.
Of course it does. Booking.com didn't invent double bookings.
But they didn’t do any of that. They just said, sorry, can’t help you. Which is fine, but be aware of that and don’t sing their praises from the rooftops and advocate for them by saying “why would you not use them over booking first party?”
I think Booking.com is by far more reliant upon repeat customers than hotels. If a hotel screws up a booking, sure the customer isn’t going to come back but they probably weren’t even if they had a good experience – people travel to lots of different places. If Booking.com screws up a booking, they very probably lost a repeat customer – Booking.com gets used again and again even when people travel to many different places. Booking.com’s incentives are more closely aligned with the traveller than the hotel’s are.
If what you say is true, I would think that there would be evidence of some sort of punitive action from booking.com for poor behavior like this. As far as I know, such evidence does not exist.
We stayed in Hilton brand hotels for around 160 days over the last year.
You don’t get loyalty points and days don’t count toward status when booking through a third party. With Hilton, those loyalties points can account for 20%-35% toward future stays. Meaning if I spend $100, I will get points worth $20-$35 toward future stays. Based on rooms I’ve already booked this year with just points, we are staying free for 25 days in 5 cities this year. Of course point accumulation is a lot slower for most people. But there are a lot of people who stay in hotels using other folks money when traveling for business.
Most hotels chains also have a “lowest price guarantee” where they will match a price found on a third party site.
This isn’t even mentioning all of the hassle you can avoid dealing with hotels directly if things go wrong or if you just don’t like the service.
Last year, I booked a 7 day half work half personal stay in San Francisco at the Hilton Financial district. It was a run down dump. I went to the front desk, told them I would be cancelling the rest of my stay and booked another hotel - the Hilton Parc 55 - for the rest of the week.
The first hotel charged me for one night. That would have been much more of a hassle going through a third party site. First you would have to hope that Hilton gave the money back to booking.com and then go through the hassle of getting your money back from them.
On that same note, I booked a regular room at Parc 55, messaged the hotel on the app before I got there and asked did they have any free Diamond upgrades available. They upgraded me to the fitness room - with a gym inside the room - for free. You don’t get those benefits when booking through a third party.
In recent years, I have not had any booking problems whatsoever. Only problem I had more than 10 years ago was about arriving very late and finding that my room reservation had been released and they were full. Luckily it was a big chain hotel which had another property nearby and was able to get me a room there for the night and then resume my original room for the rest of the week long stay. This was very busy conference week and all 3+ star hotels were full in the area.
In my experience (not very big hotel) - the emphasis was on full occupancy - rooms would only be held (with other guest with booking at the counter) in rare circumstances (eg we knew an incoming flight was delayed and we were certain the other guest would arrive. Even then we might bump the other guest if it meant we had more time to scramble to find an alternative room for the guest that hadn't shown up yet).
Most of the larger chains even have benefits if you go direct though.
As a bonus re: booking.com - they integrated with our booking system and always overbooked, unless our system lied about available rooms (would happily sell rooms when none were available - especially annoying at night, when a booked room typically means an occupied room).
If you think I'm an astroturfer look at my comment history, I've never mentioned hotels before.
Edit: Here's more information since you're not familiar with the walk policy.
https://thepointsguy.com/guide/getting-walked-from-a-hotel-c...
https://www.lawinsider.com/clause/walk-policy
https://www.costar.com/article/1992652780/how-to-walk-guests...
https://www.godsavethepoints.com/hotel-overbooking-walk-guid...
https://www.cvent.com/en/blog/events/hotel-walk-policy-defin...
We've ended up with the perfect mix of helpful insights, provocative theories, well-documented personal experiences (sample of one) -- and brief snark that gets reined in before it gets ugly.
Later on this year, I'll offer some thoughts about hotel bookings that can be nerd-sniped the other way -- into a discussion of Brave search
And booking.com? Heaven’s sake! Where do you even want me to start! First of all I can’t contact them right then. Nope I can’t! And if I do they fucking stonewall me and more than once just waved the T&C in my face. Once they fucking refused to refund because they said “I should take it with the hotel”
I mean the experience has been so shitty with TPAs that I don’t even want to look for deals now. I just call the hotel and book. They confirm and they double confirm and if anything goes wrong there’s literally a desk with more than one people 24x7. It’s just so much worth it.
I spent the next hour on the phone or on hold with a booking.com rep. They claimed the hotel had made a mistake and should be the one to fix it. They attempted to contact the appropriate person at the hotel but were unable to.
About four hours later somebody appropriate from the hotel responded to the booking.com rep and "found" the "lost" booking.
I brought up the policy you mentioned, and the booking.com rep told me that they hotel gets a chance to fix it first. They seemed quite surprised the hotel ghosted them for four hours, and told me that eventually at some point at night they would book me some other room.
So I'd say the booking.com policy you mentioned isn't quite as valuable as you might think at first.
I did get absolutely screwed once though. Turns out you can’t book a hotel in Paris after midnight because the system rolls the date over. Ended up sleeping on a couch in the lobby that night.
I agree though with the sentiment of a post up in the hierarchy that it's a problem that middlemen dominate the listings for hotels, restaurants and such.
Sometimes the person on the phone suggests the website to me, but if I decline with a "well.. I'm not very good with websites" excuse [which is effectively true, given the above] they're almost always happy to handle the problem for me.
Since then I book directly. Most recently I booked a hotel which had 2+1 night free. Booking.com was offering full price for 3 nights stay.
Freud ;-)
You might have typoed booking.con but it is spot on.
On top of that, I hate their UX.
My first go-to is Hotel Tonight mobile, which shows how interfaces should be handled. It doesn't handle rebookings and room selections though, so I often book through a given hotel directly - usually better interfaces than booking - even if not standarised, and I had a better treatment at least once, because I booked directly.
Also, if I type in a hotel name, I want to go to the hotel website, not a middleman. Hotel's website is a proxy of hotel quality to some extent.
If call them on the phone that implies one can speak the language. If hotel has a website that suggests it has an email address. Not sure I would want to stay at a hotel with a broken website and no email address.
I've never had problems booking through an intermediary but the parent is correct to the extent there are some benefits to dealing directly with the hotel.
It's really sad that so-called "tech" companies and internet marketing companies have bought out the independent travel guides, took the data and made it unreasonably difficult to find the contact info for hotels online.
But we can always find the contact info in Google Maps. Frommers and Zagat both acquired and pilfered by Google. Very sad.
Here is a website that will provide the website address and the email address for each hotel.
That's quite broad. How about some specific examples.
Email is great, I use it at work all the time, internally in the company. But in the outside world it's just not working, unfortunately.
Not to discount the speed and convenience of messenging apps, but if someone is playing fast and loose with the law and trying to avoid a "paper trail", then avoiding email and using "ephemeral" messenging might be a strategy.
It was once claimed, by Facebook, that "[1 in 7 people worldwide is on Facebook. More importantly,] 6 out of 7 people are not on Facebook." Perhaps more than 1 in 7 people have an email account. Just a guess.
With restaurants I try to not use aggregators like doordash or Uber Eats and always make sure to call and order directly so they save on fees. But hotels seem like they would rather pay the fee rather than give a real customer the best available price and keep a larger portion of the profit.
There are many things I hate about Booking.com, but at least they do generally give the best price.
I just tried the last two boutique hotels I stayed at. For one in Tel Aviv the Google and Brave results were exactly the same. First was the hotels' own website, second was tripadvisor, third was booking.com.
The other in Buenos Aires, Google had the same order (hotel, then trip, then booking), Brave did not. Brave showed booking.com, then hotel website, then tripadvisor.
I stay in hotels a lot though, if you travel occasionally and on special occasions I can absolutely understand.
I hope Brave releases a dedicated maps tab soon. (I realise it's just openstreetmaps, but it's a clean and easy to use version)
That's simply not true. I just did a search now to see if anything has changed. I randomly searched for hotels in the Seattle area for a 5/18 reservation. The 3rd item in a hotel's result [1] is the hotel's direct booking price. It matches the same reservation on the hotel's website [2]. Another hotel's result [3] has the lowest price as direct booking. Again for another hotel in NYC [4], the 3rd item is the hotel's direct price.
[1] https://i.imgur.com/XtDkLZj.png
[2] https://i.imgur.com/gHJgB3I.png
Why "even" when it's basically BingBingGo.
This is to say that I don't trust Brave to keep doing things right as their incentives evolve. Trust is a finicky thing, but from the outset they strike me as an organization with lofty commercial intentions. And, I admit, I don't think I can trust anything Brendan Eich does.
So Expedia is just a front for that other class of bookings that are non-cancellable and they skim a profit from that. Hotels save face as they can just fingerpoint if someone complains yet they gain by getting the non-cancelable bookings.
It's because DDG pays Microsoft to use the Bing index for most search stuff.
I always find it funny when people swear by DDG and hate on Bing... :P
"Today Brave announced the acquisition of Tailcat, the open search engine developed by the team formerly responsible for the privacy search and browser products at Cliqz, a holding of Hubert Burda Media. Tailcat will become the foundation of Brave Search..."
[0] https://blog.mozilla.org/press-uk/2017/10/06/testing-cliqz-i...
If you want a personal indexer, host Searx.
One can question the wisdom of these decisions - but ultimately it's a matter of editorial control, not censorship.
To call what DDG is doing (or what a newspaper does when it chooses not to print your foaming, incoherent editor to the letter -- as is, you know, its right) "censorship" is just silly.
Or in other words: "editorial guidance" is pretty much the entirety of a search engine's job: you give it a large set of documents (the internet), some user input (what you typed in the search box), and it ranks – or "editorializes" – the set of documents to something useful for you.
And at the same time you also have to account for SEO haxx0rs and outright malicious actors who will try to phish your CC details.
Do you want some crackpot website if you search for "Barrack Obama" which claims that he is literally the anti-Christ to be at #1? Or even on the first page at all? Or rolexxxx.com if you search for "buy rolex"? Or bank-of-amerrrica.ru if you search for "Bank of America"? Probably not. A naïve ranking algorithm will end up with that.
There is no perfect way to do this; it's a hard problem. Platitudes like this make it sound easy, but it's not.
You are basically arguing for a slippery slope argument. Because they already need some editorial control to filter spam and obviously irrelevant material does not mean that every type of filtering/block listing is ok.
I personally totally get how it can be offputting to people if a search engine starts hiding websites while openly saying that they do it for a political reason. Downranking would be fine, but blocking a news source (as bad as RT is at being that) that isn't spammy or playing with SEO is just different.
Yes, I know, everything is political and all. But that's the point! Blocking RT was obviously more so about politics than filtering fake news or trash results.
I do agree that blocking RT outright was overreach and somewhat silly. However, I imagine it comes more from a gut feeling of disgust and "this is bullshit" then than some ultraelitist, "gotta protect the unwashed masses from harmful ideas that may bring the global order into question" motive that people in this thread seem to want DDG to have.
I don't even doubt DDGs intentions, but that's the thing... in most cases, people who want to suppress or filter out speech/news/etc usually have good intentions because as you said they genuinely think it is harmful content. That's the whole issue! And it's why it's usually such a thorny debate.
To flip your example, if I wanted to search for "Barack Obama Anti-Christ," I'd want to get those results back, and not have DDG or whatever other authority decide categorically that I shouldn't see them.
"Editorial guidance" is a wide spectrum from favoring what the editor thinks is most relevant for the reader to the editor actively censoring content the reader wants to see for external reasons. To be charitable, I read GP as objecting to the latter and not the former.
So is all censorship.
No censor calls censorship "Censorship". An example from my country of birth:
Main Office of Control over the Press, Publications and Performances, since 1981 the Main Office of Control over Publications and Performances - the central office of state censorship in the Polish People's Republic. It was a censorship body (analogous institutions were present in all countries of the so-called Eastern Bloc) examining all forms of official information communication from the perspective of their compliance with the current state policy, and prohibiting the dissemination of unwanted information and content by the ruling communist party.
The name "The Censors" was only adopted after the collapse of communism.
I rub my eyes in amazement every time I read people on HN praising censorship and rejoicing that someone will decide for them what they can read and what they can't.
I am not able to understand how foolish one has to be to not realize that eventually the censorship organs will be used against you too.
Perhaps you think you will always hold the "correct" beliefs in which case I admire your lack of imagination.
I miss "hackers" from the 90s with some actual backbone.
Sorry, but that's not what the word means. By definition, it refers to the interception of communications between others. That's now what's happening here.
"the action of preventing part or the whole of a book, movie, work of art, document, or other kind of communication from being seen or made available to the public, because it is considered to be offensive or harmful, or because it contains information that someone wishes to keep secret, often for political reasons:"
https://philzimmermann.com/EN/essays/WhyIWrotePGP.html
It was a good time indeed.
This is the critical piece of information that I think gets fumbled (and usually on purpose by the media). The word "censor" is being supercharged and abused to apply in cases I don't think it should, and also in absurd cases where no censorship is happening.
"Cases where no censorship is happening": a comedian, to a crowd of thousands, on a Netflix special getting front page treatment, complaining about their jokes being censored for being too edgy.
Cases I don't think it should include instances of websites like Twitter banning hate speech, because the consequence of Twitter banning hate speech is that a user doesn't get to use Twitter anymore. They can still do hate speech in other places, to anyone they want. Whereas the consequences of the ruling communist party banning hate speech is that you well and truly can't do it anywhere, for many reasons.
First reason, every institution will follow the policy of the ruling party the instant it's created. This isn't the case in a country like the usa: despite whining about cancellation, you can get on voat or 4chan and drop the n word all day.
Second reason, there are legislated consequences to violating the censorship of a ruling party ban. In countries like the PRC that probably means some kind of violence such as being jailed, reeducated, or possibly even tortured or shot.
This is nothing like the system we have today. Now for the second part of my thought where I acknowledge some of the subtleties of societal pressure and side effects of what some today call "censorship," or being cancelled, and how despite us not having a ruling communist party, we do seem to have less freedom that one might assume naively above.
With your name attached, drop the n word on Twitter, get banned, no jail, no torture, sure... But you might get doxxed, and you might get banned from other platforms if you're semi famous enough to warrant some place like Facebook needing to purge you for being publicly too toxic to platform. So your actions on Twitter could result in being "censored" on all platforms whose existence depends on surviving in a traditional capitalist mode of production.
But, not just platforms, as we saw entire platforms themselves that try to host this kind of content can be themselves deplatformed by the very internet itself if cloudflare decides not to serve your hate platform.
So it seems in 2023 though nobody has to fear the bullet or the gulag, we've given various corporations so much power that their ability to "censor" is much more capable than ever in history, especially if they collude (which they often seemed forced to do). At least their collusion is much more predictable than the single communist party, whose legislation can drive the will of a single madman depending on their structure. The collusion of "big tech censorship" follows the predictable algorithm of capitalist profit seeking protection. You probably won't randomly get "censored" for criticizing a president's clothes or whatever in this environment.
So in the end though I think people are misusing the word "censor" in a way that diminishes what it means to be censored in the Soviet Union or the PRC, I do think there's a problem with how much power over what's able to be communicated publicly because of monopolization efforts and anti-interop and federalization efforts by large corporations. Don't mistake me for some kind of dude that wishes he could say the n word on Twitter though, my fears are justified by the punishment levied against people for posting pro-union rhetoric, or the doxxing to hostile governments of activists by platforms like Facebook or Twitter, or even just algorithms selectively choosing what people see, usually in favor of culture war rather than showing the reality of the world as a much more mundane place then tik tok would have you believe. This fear is similar to one I've always had about the ability to reach people on television being only available to multi billion dollar corporations.
> I miss "hackers" from the 90s with some actual backbone.
Same. It boggles my mind that I can find people who accept wrongthink as a legitimate concept here on Hacker News. I wonder if those hackers left this place and if so where they are at.
The Catholic Church does. The office of Censor is still part of the official legislation (Can. 830 CIC).
eg. to this day many people live under the impression that Kyle Rittenhouse shot three black people. If asked to estimate how many unarmed blacks get killed by police, Democrat voters give absolutely wild estimates when according to shooting databases the actual number is about 20 a year. According to a poll D voters thought you had a 50% chance of dying if you caught Covid, which is completely nuts even with the earlier, more dangerous strains.
Yet these people think they're well informed and follow the Science™.
Uh, no.
By easily findable statistics, the number is more like 225+ a year - shot and killed. And is consistently disproportionate to the number of white victims.
If you run a community tech support forum and someone starts suggesting deletion of windows32 directory as a solution to other users issues, do you let them do that?
If some neighbor in your bbq party claims to be a doctor and goes on a rant about benefits of microdosing rat poison, do you invite them ever again?
Do you disable spam filter in your mail?
We now have malicious misinformation multiplied to internet scale by modern tech. Add LLMs in the mix and we will drown in it if no measures are taken.
You want to prevent politicians or corporations from abusing or even using censorship at all - good, implement corresponding barriers. Limit scope to clear factual misinfo and not e.g. opinions - yes, sure. Proper transparent process, recourse, rehabilitation, grace of application, oversight - absolutely, implement all of those things.
Make censorship good. Denying it is required makes no sense.
Also, honestly, the spam filter example (and the rest of your examples) is pretty ridiculous. I don't turn it off, but I'd definitely freak out if my email provider decided to censor my messages for my own good without letting me see them. If nothing else then because of how many false positives I constantly see in my spam folder.
And sure, we can't verify factuality of every claim, but I do believe there is a big enough set where we can. If you accept that all information on internet is fundamentally unverifiable, then of what use is the whole thing?
Ironically, what DDG is doing is exercise of its free speech rights - pure and simple.
Still, at the end of the day - the word "censorship" has specific meaning, and it just doesn't apply to this situation.
Class struggle based left has all but disappeared in the West. And whatever your point of view on American involvement in Ukraine, it is clear that at least the mainstream branches of both parties are largely in accord.
Trump's belligerence on China (justified or not, I am not discussing this) has not only been embraced by the Democrats and NeverТrumpers on the Republican side, but also has been extended far beyond pure economic war, flirting now with proper kinetic war.
Environmental issues, once a solid socialist banner, now have been enthusiastically embraced by Wall Street (I suspect, unfortunately, for not-so-noble reasons beyond banks salivating at the prospect of financing the green transition, and entrepreneurs dreaming about all the opportunities on rebuilding our infrastructure and replacing the entire automobile fleet. Not that is bad in itself, capitalism needs constant growth to be viable, and green rebuilding allows this to happen for a few more decades without utterly destroying our planet).
Civil rights also have been solidly co-opted by the oligarchic class. Both for reasons that the moral behavior and values of the elites are fairly advanced and they want to impose their values as the mainstream values down the throats of the more backward working class and because it is useful as it redirects energy from unionization and other forms of class struggle.
All of our labels and categories simply don't work to understand this complex scenario.
> Civil rights also have been solidly co-opted by the oligarchic class. Both for reasons that the moral behavior and values of the elites are fairly advanced and they want to impose their values as the mainstream values down the throats of the more backward working class and because it is useful as it redirects energy from unionization and other forms of class struggle.
Worse than that - the elites actively hold luxury beliefs that cause damage at the lower rungs of society but the elites themselves don't quite behave by but which are useful to proclaim as signals of class allegiance and attaining status.
That said, it's been plainly shown that eg. the diversity push is in good part an anti-unionization ploy yet most of the left keeps supporting it.
Lots of DDG users were upset because this is the type of thing they objected to with Google.
I despise disinformation and war propaganda, but I decide for myself what content falls in those categories – I don't need my search engine to decide it for me.
All search engines must comply with laws (CSAM, right to be forgotten or whatever it is called now) in various regions. That compliance is not in any way the same category as what DDG boasted in March 2022 that it was doing.
Could've been clearer, I guess.
Let's say there's a reason my search engine pages show a lion and not a duck.
> In continuing our mission to offer alternatives to Big Tech, Brave is planning to release the Brave Search API. Through it, developers and companies will be able to build search experiences that compete on quality with Big Tech. Those interested should stay tuned for more details, or contact us at bizdev@brave.com.
That's going to be very important for search engines like phind which rely on the bing index service.
There are many browsers out there, maintained by a few devs, sometimes in their free time.
Konqueror, Gnome Web, qutebrowser, WebPositive...
Whatever the SerinityOS is doing, reimplementing a browser engine from scratch for their browser Ladybird [1], is vastly more impressive.
[1] https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Ladybird
In fact, back when I used DDG I think I fell back to marginalia more often than I fell back to Google, partly because of my dislike for Google and partly because Google doesn't respect my queries - which of course is a contributing reason for my dislike for them.
Let's say 100 of the Brave employees are engineers and 50 of them work on the Chromium skin, that still leaves 50 to work on search and related efforts. If 5 of them are as good as the marginalia guy and they are allowed to work with equally clear direction, lack of interruptions and more funding, I think that could almost explain a working search engine.
Remember: In the first 20 years of Google existence (or in any 20 years of the semiconductor age until recently) Moores law had over 13 cycles. A lot of what used to be hard problems before isn't anynore.
The web also grow tremendously, and probably user expectations too (in the beginning of the century we were told in school not to speak to search engine like we would to a human, but with keywords and operators). We also do and search for many more kinds of things
To be blunt: for me, mainstream search engines Google and Bing very much feel like the things they replaced, Altavista and Yahoo, just with some fancy bolt ons like maps etc.
I understand some people like to be able to write sentences to their search engines, but as long as the results have worse quality than they had 15 - 20 years ago, that "understanding" is just another fancy bolt on feature.
The only things that exist today that could threaten Google quality is Kagi which has gone all in on quality and ChatGPT (and other similar solutions) which finally have produced a working "answer machine" instead of breaking perfect or at least working search engines.
It is really impressive and up to date.
It feels a little less precise than ChatGPT but given the fact that it is up to date means it is a tradeoff I guess I will often want to take.
Still just 1 dinky lil' consumer hardware server in my living room. I think what is limiting the project the most is the hardware. Like I can definitely squeeze more out of it, but I could probably do 100 times more if I had any sort of operational budget.
But at least the development is funded for the moment. We'll see where I am when the NLnet money runs out...
BTW, thank you very much for offering this service, even though I don't use it often.
Would having a few more people working on it make stuff move faster? Undeniably. But I don't think lack of manpower is an obstacle at the moment in the same lack of hardware. It's reasonable to expect there's an upper limit to how big a project you can manage as a single developer, but I don't think I'm there yet.
I would love to but I am not in a position to do it, at least not right now.
Right now I've got about two years runway, which isn't a lot but it also isn't nothing. Considering the project had barely started two years ago, and considering the opportunities it's already created, hopefully more options will make themselves available along the way somehow.
* More crawlers. This is mostly a network limitation. Disk requirement would be about 50 Tb in total of literally any hard drive, split along the crawlers.
* A dedicated number crunching machine for index construction and processing. Basically needs to be all cores and all RAM.
* A dedicated SQL server. Doesn't have to be super big or fast, but right now it's contending with the index for RAM.
* Either a bigger index server, or a few machines for a sharded index. I'd basically need 40 Tb worth of Enterpise SSD and 1 Tb total of RAM.
The problem space is very nice in that almost everything is either embarrassingly parallel along some axis or another or O(n)-O(n log n) so adding more hardware pays off well.
This is clearly too much hardware to run out of my apartment, even if the fuses held up the noise and heat would be intolerable, so likely some form of colocation hosting as well.
I dunno what it would land on. Probably a one-off cost of about $50k-$100k, depending the degree of redundancy. There's definitely stuff that could be done for less as well. Like right now the entire operation runs out of a single machine, and it's causing me to have to bring the service down for days at a time when I'm switching to a new index.
Also I switched from StartPage to Brave search, but I do wish Brave search had a translator feature. Like on StartPage I just search "translate" and get an input box. I find it better than most other browsers' translators.
Does it block ads?
If you browse YouTube on mobile via the Brave browser it blocks all YouTube ads.
I haven't used the YouTube app in a year...
btw: it’s also possible to go to fullscreen mode, then go directly to the home screen so that the pop-over player is activated, then the video keeps playing while the screen is looked, with controls working from the lockscreen.
Wow.
That’s a bit of a shame… :’(
I wish Firefox was like Brave, to be honest. Until that happens, I'll stick to Brave for both mobile and desktop.
What's to be like the Brave browser for you? You don't say much.
Oh. You didn't? Then what are you complaining about?
Not since the early 2000s when browsers were infested with random toolbars have I seen so much shady spam in a web browser.
* The wallet is enabled by default.
* The new tab page shows crypto ads by default. I couldn't figure out how to opt-out of these despite a couple of minutes in the "customize dashboard" menu. I know the option exists, but it's well-hidden.
* The BAT rewards icon is enabled by default, as well as the new tab card, as well as injected tip buttons on Github, Reddit, and Twitter.
* BAT rewards itself is not enabled by default, but there are no less than 3 distinct notifications asking me to enable it.
* Brave news is not enabled, but again there are multiple requests to enable it hidden throughout various menus. It's also not clear how Brave news interacts with Brave rewards. If I only enable news, do I still get the in-feed ads without the reward sharing, or is the news feed ad-free, or will only certain ad channels be shown?
So no, the crypto stuff is not opt-in. It's mostly opt-out with the BAT rewards program specifically being opt-in.
Most people referring to the "crypto stuff" are talking about that program where you get an ad every once in a while and get some crypto for viewing it. I'm certainly not a fan of it, and would not use (let alone recommend) Brave, if it was imposed.
Now I have no problem with their search engine if it is good. Alternatives are definitely needed. If they start pushing their token through it or weighing results based on the token in some way I might think again.
Customize->Background image. Has a total of two switches. One for background images at all, the other for sponsored background images. Turn the second one off.
Also Ctrl + B to show the bookmarks sidebar would be nice, for those of us who nest their web clippings deeply.
On the iOS app, it also forgets usernames I’ve stored using password sync. For some sites (criteria unclear) I have to type the username before it inserts the password, which is frustrating to a privacy conscious user who will not use the same email address everywhere.
I want to like it but there are power user pleasing areas where it certainly lags behind Firefox.
Regarding iOS, it's entirely possible there's a bug in our code. I'll definitely take a closer look and speak with the team regarding this report. That said, it's also not entirely uncommon for users to enter a site through a slightly different URL, or form, which complicates the credential-autofill logic. If you have an example or two of sites where this behavior is consistently observed, that would be much appreciated.
The two recent culprits that didn't toggle password autofill were eBay.co.uk and Gumtree.co.uk. I'd be grateful it if this could be investigated; the latter prevented me from checking an address in the Gumtree PMs whilst on the road delivering a purchase.
On the issue of sending multiple tabs, it is frustrating enough that it prevents me from adopting Brave as my main browser. I often open a few sites that interest me on mobile then decide to read more on my desktop. If you could pass the word along for someone to investigate that, all the better.
With that said, it's commendable being the only browser on iOS with first class advert blocking & sync with every other platform.
But I still really miss Opera from the old days. Vivaldi is the next best thing.
But yeah, that's one of their biggest issues
Vivaldi's fine, and it's what I'd use if Brave didn't exist, but I just like the experience of using Brave more, especially on desktop. Vivaldi's new mobile version, from what I've seen, has clarified their old mobile UI a lot and got background media playback, so that's less of an issue.
Mozilla is so dysfunctional that the CEO is rewarded a massive bonus for running the company to the ground and laying off their employees.
They are not interested in competing against Chrome; instead they are chronically dependent on Google's money and on life support, making over 80% of their revenue despite the Mozilla CEO saying that they would not fully depend on Google's money. in the future. [0]
I hope Brave makes Firefox (and Mozilla) even more irrelevant.
[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20120105090543/https://www.compu...
Salaries and benefits - management & general: 81 million
https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2021/mozilla-fdn-202...
I get that you hate Mozilla, but from the perspective of an end user of browsers, this is a deeply irrational position. Less competition in the browser space is uniformly bad for end users, as we've seen very clearly in the past.
I still hope we can manage to break up Google before that happens so anything that delays Googles cornering of the browser market is a win in my eyes.
As to Mozilla, their combination of incompetence, user-hostility, and complete dependence on Google renders them controlled opposition at best. They are not a serious player in the browser space, continuing to treat them like one is directing limited resources and mind share into a failing enterprise.
Having stopped Firefox users from browsing the net with infinite verification loops, Cloudflare finds their unbiased estimation of internet browser usage shows Firefox is in decline.
It's more surprising that Mozilla survives at all (and likely at Google's mercy with default placement payment) since the only other browsers who can hope to compete have massive subsidies from a larger business.
Firefox on desktop has been more than good enough anyway.
They still spin off massive amounts of cash -- they just piss it away on their foundation, and not improving the product.
My recollection was that Microsoft had stopped innovating on IE6 almost entirely during that decade, right? Or at least for the few years that enabled Firefox to get a foothold.
> They still spin off massive amounts of cash -- they just piss it away on their foundation, and not improving the product.
Hard agree on this. So many side quests when the main quest is not done.
It seems we're all relying on Apple/Safari to provide that Chromium alternative.
Let's not go this far. Mozilla getting its shit together will only benefit us.
I have Brave installed as an alternate browser (originally because sites like Twitch and Netflix performed poorly on Firefox, not so much the case anymore). And there's a noticeable lag when switching tabs that's absent in Firefox. And the memory usage - Brave uses as much memory with 10 tabs open as Firefox does with 100. It seems like "unloaded" tabs are not really unloaded at all, and continue to take up memory (which makes you question what unloading does) as long as the browser remains open.
I'm not sure what you mean by ergonomic, but I've been spoiled by Firefox's openness to customization, it was shocking to find that you can't even customize the toolbar on Brave to have your frequently used features handy.
It was a movement that used the existing mechanism to promote a law they wanted, not a mob trying to get their way by shouting down others.
You may not like how the process works, but it works the same for everyone. Trying to smear the ones you don't agree with as not legitimate doesn't work, because it's the process that you're smearing.
It sounds like your biggest priority in determining ethicality is legality: did anything illegal happen in the "cancellation" of the Brave founder? (I know nothing about this event, I'm just commenting within the context of this short conversation).
If not, how then are you determining one method being better than another?
If there is a legal and approved method for getting a law, why is forming a mob the same as using the official method?
I'm actually not even sure anymore what you mean by "legal and approved method for getting a law." Maybe you're talking about how some places like California have a process for petition > law proposition > law being put directly on the ballot? Not all states have that and as far as I know the usa congress has nothing like that. In fact when it comes to federal law the only way I'm aware of for citizens to get a law they want in the end always comes down to some kind of mob formation.
Anyway the meaning of the word "official" matters as well. The USA's founding documents state an intent that the authority of the government derives from the people. There's thus no difference between a government's rubber stamped "official process," and a crowd of people in city hall shouting.
By using Firefox you support Mozilla, so you support the CEO financing political campaigns you don’t agree with. The CEO is a special role that represents Mozilla.
It’s simple, the guy had to go.
I do think choosing to live in a society does come with SOME social responsibilities though, don't you? Most we probably don't think about all that much, like not farting in public or whatever. Not scratching our crotches in public. Not cutting in lines. Stuff with no legal boundaries but are just general social responsibilities.
I use Firefox because it's a functional browser with the best uBlock Origin support. Whatever political campaigns the guy in charge contributes to is not a factor, it's not even something I think about at all. I shouldn't even have to know who's in charge, if that information ever comes up it's probably a sign something's wrong.
> It’s simple, the guy had to go.
Mozilla is clearly worse off for it. Looks like the guy went and made another browser and now it's eating at Firefox's market share. Kind of ironic.
[1] - https://web.archive.org/web/20200708202554/https://brendanei...
But throwing a monkey wrench into the whole thing is my increasing use of Bing Chat. It's not really a general purpose search replacement, but it does do a more efficient job of answering basic questions succinctly.
It lands you on Brave Search instead of what you have set for your regular sessions.
Fine by me.
For the next 20 years I used Firefox. But I could feel the performance difference from Chromium browsers.
I finally threw in the towel and switched to Brave out of the collection of them now. I hated switching because it meant yet another user lost to one of the remaining handful of unique engines for browsing the web. I like competition and standards, and the more the better with browsing engines. Even if it may bring developers some pain.
I've been very happy with it. People gripe about ads, crypto integration, etc. but it can all be avoided and/or turned off. It has the speed of Chromium but with additional features and is privacy-focused.
But to get to the point, regarding the search ...
I'm happy to see they (somehow!) have been able to build their own search engine now. Obviously that's no simple task, I have no idea what goes into powering that but it has to be a major investment.
It seems pretty good. If they can sell API access for cheaper then the others and still return quality results, that seems like it has potential to be a good revenue stream.
They are very clear about the Web Discovery Project, what the purpose is, what it collects, etc. And obviously it's opt-in.
I really hope they succeed with this. Another example of where competition is definitely good.
I do feel like brave drains the battery pretty badly on macOS.
Used Firefox from long ago, but switched about 3 years ago when I just was getting way too many problems with firefox not running SaaS stuff. Couldn't run Salesforce on Firefox. Maybe there was some way that someone knows of here, but I didn't and was not going to spend 200 hours trying to find out. So after extensive decision-making process of looking at everything, I chose Brave.
It could be that Brave is getting better, or Google search is getting worse, or both.
When I was on DDG, I often had to use `!g` to find better search results. That is extremely rare with Brave Search.
The results are accurate, the UI is polished, and the widgets are extremely helpful. It keeps getting better with time too!
Source: https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409406835469-Wh...
> If you opt-in to the Web Discovery Project, your browser will process the following data on your device, and securely send it to Brave’s servers:
> - A fraction of the addresses (URLs) of the web pages visited in the Brave Browser, along with engagement metrics (how much time is spent on the page)
> - [...]
I get that but if it's a new site, the number of people visiting will be extremely small if not non-existent. The possibilities that I see are
a) The new website is first noted on something like social media and you found it from there and then accessed it via Brave browser
b) You use Google search or Bing within Brave browser and you find the site (because it was submitted to Google or Bing)
What's the business plan though?
Have been very happy with the search results, and for people who don't like the simpler programming tutorial sites you can even make a custom "goggle" to block those from the results completely.
For example I tried brave to search for watch I'm currently considering buying. When using site:sk it gives me 3 results... Same google search returns thousands results...
I also hate how it's not full width.
We're always on the look-out to improve our search ranking. Would you be able to share some of the queries you made that did not return satisfying results? (or use in-page feedback to report them automatically to us). It would be very useful.
Thanks!
Google's: https://www.google.com/search?q=ufc+schedule&rlz=1C1GCEU_en&...
Bing's (doesn't have UFC Schedules but has "NFL Standings"): https://www.bing.com/search?q=NFL+standings&qs=n&form=QBRE&s...
Very rarely I will need to hit the Find Elsewhere 'Google' button. This is usually done for niche technical searches where Google prioritizes some forums dedicated to the topic like Reddit or Stack Overflow. I _could_ re-search with the site operator, but after scrolling down with the Google escape hatch there, the flow just seems more natural.
Just as an aside, I have also been experimenting with SearX searches. The experience isn't as streamlined as Brave Search, but I can incorporate Brave Search into my results. I find the value proposition interesting for SearX, but implementation still lacking.
DDG seem to do quite well in that a lot of their users will deem the relevance good enough, perhaps not aware of its 100% reliance on Bing. More often than not new search engine skins with comparable results to Google and Bing do tend to be the actual results of Google and Bing. Apparently the average searcher doesn't know nor care.
If everyone 'donated' at least a few searches a day to true alternative engines, it'd help diversify search, surely. The fact that Google has such a high amount of revenue per search has helped them price out competitors e.g. being defaults on browsers and devices. Can see why Brave would launch a browser to assist/complement search.
Weird how a company can experience NEGATIVE growth for something like browsers and search
Just today, it told me to use Bing or Google for image search.
I understand the reasoning, but it felt a bit like "whelp, we give up"
The "BraveAI" result was halfway decent, recommending a place I've never heard of, but not listing any of the other top ones I know of.
On the sidebar map, it listed a restaurant in New Hampshire. Hilarious, but not what I was looking for.
For searching every day things, brave search is great. For searching technical things, such as scientific articles or programming errors, the results are not just badly ordered - they’re often missing entirely.
At least, that’s how it was the last time I used it, which was admittedly about a year ago. If things have changed, let me know.
Have we forgiven them now?
The search engine itself shows keyword based ads on search results pages, and Brave offers a $3/mo subscription for ad-free search.
Brave Rewards tipping service: Show users the toaster popups. Brave takes a cut when users tip creators or websites with the built-in tipping system.
Brave News: Funded by users having Brave Rewards ads enabled.
Brave Talk: Traditional subscription service.
Brave Search: Keyword-based ads, a traditional subscription for ad-free search.
Kudos if you can find their 2023 crawler in logs....
As someone without much familiarity, this alternative seems circuitous if Google results are what you actually want.
I get that they need to pay employees.
But still very happy with how Kagi works
and if you happen to be using tor in brave browser, you will get "I'm not a robot" reCAPTCHA
What percentage of it, I have no idea.
https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409406835469-Wh...
<meta property="og:description" content="Search the web privately ...">
Would be nice if Brave did not require SNI since this is considered a privacy concern by some folks.^1 Anyone sniffing the wire can see all the domain names to which the SNI user is connecting.^3 The other search engines do not require SNI, e.g., Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo, GigaBlast, Qwant, etc.1. One example would be Cloudflare. Because some folks see SNI as a privacy concern, Cloudflare used to offer ESNI which was a way to encrypt SNI. It has since been discontinued while we wait for ECH. Some HN commenters will often try to argue that SNI is irrelevant to users without offering any evidence to support. Watch for it. For example, China found SNI was relevant enough to block ESNI. Apparently, China found it preferable to use SNI than to use only IP addresses, which of course are easy for websites to change. Go figure.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/Dae-cukKMqfzmTT4Ks...
SNI can be used for censorship purposes, among other things. Many search engines work without SNI. But not Brave.
NB. As I understand it, these browsers do not allow the user to enable/disable SNI on a per site basis; in some of them it is not even possible to disable SNI at all.^2 TLS might enable the user to hide web pages from the proverbial "MITM", but with SNI enabled it will not allow them to hide web sites.
2. Thus, even when Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo, GigaBlast, Qwant, Mojeek, etc., and millions of other websites do not require the user to send SNI in order to return SERPs or other pages, these browsers send it anyway. Brilliant.
3. SNI is different than DNS. DNS lookups can be done at a different time from when a user connects, if the user ever does connect. (Popular browsers are not good for this, of course.) Unlike DNS, SNI proves the user actually connected. Strangely, much effort has gone into encrypting DNS, while SNI, and to some extent TLS prior to version 1.3, leaks these same domain names on the wire, unencrypted.
But do not take a random HN commenter's word for it. Try this yourself. Try to map IP addresses to domain names on a very large sample. I have tested this on hundreds of thousands of domains. It will not work reliably. Not even close. Compared to SNI, which is both simple and reliable, it is a total PITA.
If this 1-to-1 IP to domain mapping and 100% reliable reverse DNS idea made any sense, then why claim encrypted DNS offers "DNS privacy". Anyone can see IP addresses on the wire. If all IP addresses can easily be mapped to domain names, then how would this provide any privacy.
Mapping IP addresses to domain names has to account for the fact that IP addresses can change. To make sure the mapping is correct one has to constantly keep doing lookups. SNI stays the same even if the IP changes. It requires very little effort; it makes the process of determining the domain name trivial.
The goal is not total privacy. (Impossible when using the internet anyway.) The goal is to not to make surveillance easy. That's what SNI does. It makes surveillance (and censorship) super easy.
If I am wrong about this, and SNI is AOK, then why was ESNi developed and why is ECH being developed. It is not an easy problem to solve. Why bother. SNI was a feature to benefit websites, not website users. It has some very undesirable properties for users.
Even with CDNs that need to use SNI, it is still possible to avoid sending the domain name in plaintext on the wire. One can use a dummy name, i.e., not the name in the Host header, as the SNI and the CDN can still return the correct page because it uses only the Host header. This was nicknamed "domain fronting". I was using this technique before anyone started calling it that. Using a dummy name can reduce the surveillance value of SNI, sometimes to zero. After some "security researchers" started bragging about their discovery of "domain fronting", AWS and other CDNs started checking SNI against Host header to make sure they are the same. Now "domain fronting" no longer works. Countries that censor the internet, who are valued AWS customers, rely on accurate SNI in order to carry out censorship. Go figure.
Otherwise, I give their index a B+ compared w/ DDG, Bing, and Google