Comment by bolanyo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bolanyo | Hacker News Reader

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> it is unreasonable to live permanently in a country without speaking the local language

But what if there are countries where the 'local language' eventually becomes like Irish in Ireland?

Everyone who goes to school in the Republic of Ireland will learn some Irish at school. Almost every Irish person will know some Irish expressions, Irish songs, and be aware of Irish-language culture and literature as well as English-language Irish culture. If two native Irish people were in a hostage situation, held by English speakers who didn't know any Irish, and had to communicate without being understood, most would probably manage to do so.

And yet, you could live anywhere in Ireland your whole life and never be in a situation where you needed anything other than English to make yourself understood. No official purpose, and no business interaction would ever require Irish, even in the most rural and remote areas.

If you cared deeply about the Irish language, wouldn't it make more sense to support and honor Irish poetry, song, literature and theatre, rather than trying to coerce or force immigrants into learning a (reputedly difficult) language with around 1 million speakers, and less than 100,000 daily active users?

Some (not historically Anglophone) countries are getting close to being like this, in particular the Netherlands and Sweden. The metropolitan areas of those countries are much further down that path. If local culture is still preserved, taught and celebrated, is a really a problem?

Wish Spain adopted that view a bit more. Let alone English, some of local officials just refuse to speak Castellano and tell you to come back when you have learned the local dialect/language (lol). Most official forms are primarily in the local language - sometimes official websites too without option to translate to the official language of the country. Most kids in local schools learn Castellano Spanish as a foreign language - imagine the disadvantage it brings. Local universities require a local dialect language exam as part of their entrance, even to foreigners. Most classes are held in the local language. I get and support regional pride but it should be done with a common sense approach.

> If two native Irish people were in a hostage situation, held by English speakers who didn't know any Irish, and had to communicate without being understood, most would probably manage to do so.

Perhaps, so long as what they needed to communicate was that either they wanted permission to go to the bathroom, or that they liked something in the room (most likely a girl, cake, or window).

mar ná beidh ár leithéidí arís ann

Ah yes, the only Irish sentence you can guarantee everyone in the country knows.

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?

Will English supplant Dutch and German in a few generations?

In a way they are related, is it why people from those countries pick it up so easily?

Like kids growing up in metropolitan areas immersed in English only environments

I think that the links between these languages do make it easy for people from the Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia to learn English. These countries, to give them credit, have also seen the importance of good language education, in particular English learning, for a long time.

There is also an effect which people from other countries have described which makes it harder for foreigners to learn the local language. If you approach almost anyone in the Netherlands and speak to them in semi-competent Dutch, they will often respond in fluent and nearly accentless English. This includes older people, people with only high-school education, people in official positions. So not only do you not need to learn, you are discouraged from practicing by the local population's competence and hospitality.

It might feel that way if your main experience of Germany is Berlin, but is not a risk for any of the rest of the country, including Munich with its fairly strong English-speaking expat community - Germans speak German to each other, and will politely ask you, the non-German, if it's ok to continue the meeting in German, but expect you to at least attempt to learn it.

I've not spent enough time in the Netherlands to speak to Dutch's future, but a big difference I can see is television and movies, even on streaming services: popular US shows are dubbed into German and it takes a bit of doing to get some of them with the original English soundtracks; Dutch has long been a target for subbing.

>If local culture is still preserved, taught and celebrated, is a really a problem?

Yes because it won't be really preserved if you don't have speakers who use it as their main language since nothing new will be created, just relics of the past that will slowly be lost.

Most people other than highly-cosmopolitan minorities don't think they should lose their language, which is so deeply tied with how we even process our understanding of the world, by mapping concepts to words, with their culture and identity, just to make it easier for foreigners who can't be bothered to learn the local language.

The problem is that the minority is way more vocal and has more influencing power.

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