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Comment by mtrpcic | Hacker News Reader

The benefit of buttons isn't in the response time, it's in the tactile feedback that makes it so you don't need 16ms response time. I heard it click, I felt it click, it clicked. If the thing I wanted to happen doesn't, it's because it's broken and not because I can't tell if I clicked the right spot on my iPad. Not having to take your eyes off the road in these cases is the benefit of buttons, and no improvement to response time in touch screens will fully solve that.

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This isn't how tactile buttons in modern cars work. You're doing the same thing as pushing keys on a keyboard. The software can still be slow.

Turn the physical volume dial on a car with a slow Apple CarPlay interface and tell me how that works out for you.

Oh, it's too loud? But it takes 2 seconds for the software to respond due to lag and now you're fiddling with the volume button trying to not make it worse?

A physical button didn't fix that.

You turn the physical dial, and regardless of the outcome, you know that your input was received by the HCI, so you don't need to wonder if you should try again.

If it worked, great; if not, oh well; no need to look at it and try again though. That's the benefit.

The issue is, how far to turn it?

My Android phone has a similar issue while operating over Bluetooth. While holding "volume up", it takes several seconds for the volume change to register. So I have no feedback for how long I need to hold "volume up". If I wait until the volume is loud enough -- it keeps going up for another two seconds, to the point that it is painful and possibly damaging my hearing.

There’s tactile feedback for that too. You learn how many “clicks” of the knob you need.

Most rotary encoders are programmed to have "acceleration", so it's not quite that simple. And the amount you need to turn it may vary nonlinearly based on the volume and ambient conditions (sound perception is complex!).

Rapid feedback is important.

True, but dealing with the consequences of laggy response even in this case does not result in taking your eyes off the road. Rather, the troubleshooting feedback loop can happen entirely using your hand and ears.

When using a touch screen, if you don't know whether the lack of feedback is due to its lag or your bad aim, you would likely take your eyes off the road in order to aim better, given that bad aim is a likely culprit.

What if I'm switching air vent direction? There's only 5 positions in most cars.

I know the one it was on, and I know how far to turn it to get to the one I want. This removes the necessity of looking at it.

Same for steering wheel buttons (e.g. Up - next track, down - previous track, same for volume)

Same for wipers - only 3 positions and you can tell by their speed which position it's in.

The problem is when manufacturers take existing solved problems and move it to a strictly worse system like touchscreen. That's an inexcusable regression.

Yeah it's less bad, but it's still an inferior UX to pretty much everything that came before bloated infotainment systems. Both factors are important, an intuitive physical control and responsive feedback.

I’ve used car stereos where the physical volume knob was so laggy and buggy that sometimes it would misread its own input and change the volume in the wrong direction unless you turned it very slowly while watching the display to see if it was registering. People will absolutely find a way to fuck it up.

Why would you need to look at a screen? Surely the feedback from a volume knob is the volume changing?

If it doesn't change -> change it more

It it changes too much -> change it less

If you realise it needs to be moved slowly -> move it slowly

My car has this problem. I'm not sure if it's CarPlay specific or not because I've never played audio any other way.

I don't think it's CarPlay specific. I occasionally get similar erratic results for both volume and speed control on my Model 3 if I spin the steering wheel dials too quickly (and in the case of speed control, it's actually intended to be a supported function, spin it fast enough and go up in 5-mph increments instead of 1). I suspect it's just an artifact of that sort of infinite dial technology.

My car has this problem, only sometimes it takes a lot longer than two seconds.

The car when started always turns on the radio at the last volume the radio was on at, regardless of whether it was on when the car was turned off.

More than once, I have turned it on, and it was playing at full volume the Sirius FM ads, and would not lower the volume or turn off ( via the other physical buttons) for at least half a minute. I've done some damage to the volume button after that, and I have taken to just getting out of the car until the stereo responds.

We have a Renault and it is similar. I don't listen to the radio. If I have any audio, it's either something from my phone or navigation (also phone, usually off).

The default on the car is to turn on the radio on engine start. No way to change it. No way to make it remember that the last time the car was used it was set to Bluetooth audio. Switching back to Bluetooth requires navigating through 3-4 layers of menus. Even when you turn it off, it randomly turns back on for no reason. :/

My 10+ year old VW: remembers which audio source was last used. Phone autoconnects via Bluetooth every time with no hassle. Volume is never an issue (real buttons that respond in a timely manner on the steering wheel). Off is off until you turn it on again (with a physical button).

If only it was possible to adjust the volume without talking to the phone - heresy, I know. Having your phone decide how loud or quiet it should be playing is rather stupid anyway.

It does fix that because I dont have to look at it while I wait the 2 seconds. On a touch screen my finger will be slipping as the car is moving and have to constantly divert my eyes as I wait for the lag - even if its the same lag as a physical button.

The issue is NOT the delay, it's having to look at the interface vs. being able to feel what I'm doing

I can operate physical buttons without taking my eyes off the road.

I know where the volume knob is and I can easily grab it and turn it without looking away. If it's slow to respond I can go again and dial it back down, without looking away. Or I can just keep my hand on the dial and spin it back a bit.

With a digital screen I can't leave my hand on it without continually pressing the input, and if I want to put the volume down I have to look and see where that button is.

A physical control absolutely fixes this

A lot the knobs and buttons these days are digital anyways. So there is no real tactile feedback, since they are just activating some digital function anyways.

The knob still exists as a physical thing between in your fingers. You can feel it turn, you feel how much you've turned it, you feel the little clicks if it has those, you feel if you turn it into an extreme position.

That's what tactile feedback is. It doesn't matter if the knob is connected to a digital or analog circuit. It has tactile feedback either way.

You don’t get resistance when you turn the knob all the way up or down. You don’t get confirmation that the button you pressed did something. It’s tactile in the sense that they are physical, but otherwise not a great experience.

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