The Effects of Noise on Health (2022) | Hacker News Reader

The Effects of Noise on Health (2022)

hms.harvard.edu

An addendum to the posted article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8

Cities aren't loud; motor vehicles are. Tire noise near heavy stroads and highways are in particular egregious offenders. There's a lot of other points in the comments about some other urban nuisances (leaf blowers, anyone?) but I encourage anyone to walk around (yes, walk) while measuring the ambient noise levels with your smartphone's microphone.

It will be extremely obvious where the noise is coming from. This is an often misunderstood part of "the war on cars:" the stress gained from additional constant noise (e.g. like a highway) takes YEARS off our lives.

And don't get me started on how loud shops are in North America. For whatever reason they seem to always keep the volume three or four levels above comfortable, making it much harder to have a conversation without shouting at least a little.

It wasn't until I started traveling a lot that I started to notice any of this. You can have your quiet part of town, but often you get to your quiet part of town by driving through the noisiest part of town where a good number of people live and work.

> And don't get me started on how loud shops are in North America. For whatever reason they seem to always keep the volume three or four levels above comfortable, making it much harder to have a conversation without shouting at least a little.

I think almost everyone operating a sound system is biased toward making it too loud. I’ve been to events for small children with painfully loud sound. There will be a DJ blasting 95-100 dB, never mind that (a) no one is on the dance floor because it’s too loud, (b) everyone is there to chat and do crafts anyway, not to listen to music, and (c) it’s actively dangerous to expose people to that volume.

I’ve also seen events where the DJ or band keeps edging the volume higher. It’s like they become desensitized to their own music and keep feeling like it needs to be 1 dB higher to sound right.

I believe that France actually regulates sound exposure. I bet that France’s maximum SPL plus a pair of good 10-15 dB earplugs would make for a great concert experience.

It’s nuts to me how loud public space music is by default these days (at least here in america.) We stereotype Californian cities like SF as being more health conscious, but even the Academy of Sciences puts their DJ every Thursday evening in a concrete and glass box with the volume cranked to instantly-dangerous levels. Like you I’ve been especially astounded by the cavalier attitude to audio safety at events targeted towards children, but imo even many bars and adult oriented venues are simply not being at all considerate of the immediate risks to their patrons from the music volume. Phonobar recently opened in SF as an “audiophile bar” and the listening room volume is usually so loud your hearing would almost instantly be damaged from stepping inside…so of course you aren’t hearing any “audiophile” quality sound even with earplugs.

At this point I just bring my earplugs everywhere, but everywhere I look around and I’m surrounded by people my age who are actively destroying their hearing and seem oblivious to it.

It seems like there should be a lot more public health education about hearing loss. That’s why it was especially disappointing to see CalAcademy not even have earplugs for sale when they operate as a music venue, along with the plainly unsafe (and poorly mixed, frankly) PA system volume.

> I’ve also seen events where the DJ or band keeps edging the volume higher. It’s like they become desensitized to their own music and keep feeling like it needs to be 1 dB higher to sound right.

This is very much a thing and not limited to DJs or bands.

Some advice I got a long time ago (but can't find the source): if you've been listening to music for a while, turn the volume down to zero, and then slowly increase the volume back to where it sounds the same. You usually end up with an absolutely lower volume but it sounds exactly the same.

Also if you go to concerts and wear earplugs, your brain eventually recalibrates the sound so eventually it sounds just like normal volume.

Here’s a new one for me: At a swimming championship, some coaches had taken to quick sharp [fingers in mouth whistling] bursts on say a breaststroke when their heads come up, which then caught on with other punters. Sometimes I was reminded of the voovoozela World Cup. Anyway one guy was particularly bad and I clocked him at 105db from 20m, but he was doing it next to people. I feel sorry for them.

Most dj’s are children and you can’t leave them alone for a second even if you’re very clear about noise restrictions, even driving very clearly into digital distortion without noticing or caring. More loud more better. Brick wall compression and have them sending hot and don’t let them near the console.

Potentially a hidden killer is exposure over time. You might be under because your 88db concert only went a couple of hours but you drove there with loud music and you’re going some place after with loud music and drive home. So nothing specifically was too loud but you’ll still be over for the day. But try having that conversation :/ far as anyone’s concerned duty of care applies while you’re in the limits of one specific place.

Not all car noise is equal though. I ride a bike regularly along an 8 lane freeway. It’s pretty amazing how hundreds if not thousands of cars go by and it’s mostly a blur of white noise. But every now and then a jackass with a loud exhaust goes by and it’s a completely different level of annoyance.

The white noise still causes stress. I remember vividly how peaceful everything was during the Covid lockdowns when almost no cars were on the road. You suddenly could hear the wind, birds and other sounds you normally don’t hear.

That's 5 times a day minimum on the street in front of my house. It's enough to interrupt conversations.

I just don't get the appeal.. maybe hearing your RPMs to know when to shift? Even that would be overkill to the extreme.

It’s the audible equivalent of “being seen”. Commanding the attention of others around them feels good to some people.

So the moment I leave my door until I reach my destination's door, I have my isolated Bose headphones on. Even if I'm not listening to anything, I keep them turned on and covering my ears. The other day I took them off and was alarmed by this loud sound of a car approaching just before I started to cross the street. I look over and it's a good 200m away.

Cars are ridiculously loud and few of us really recognize how loud they are.

I started nearly permanently wearing them because I read some articles about the effect of ambient noise on hearing over long-term. But since then I've also noticed how noisy and disturbing cities are in general. It's so damn peaceful and calm when I have the headphones on and I could never do without them anymore.

I’d say construction work is a close second offender in any major city with high population density.

By necessity, unfortunately. Loud diesel engines, jackhammers and rock breakers that require workers to have hearing protection, all anchored by an undercurrent of backup alarms that must pierce the rest of the din and the hearing protection to be audible to the workers.

Many US cities and towns permit construction to happen at relatively early hours - like 6 or 7 AM. That’s usually not a problem if you’re a 9-5er.

It is a massive problem if you work late shifts. My wife works in the restaurant business and 6 or 7 AM she’s still deep asleep.

We had construction near our condo for nearly three years where spring, summer, and fall the jackhammers started at around a little before 7 every weekday. It was brutal for her.

That, plus various other issues, lead us to decide our next home is going to be a quiet single family home in a suburb. Yes - a suburb!

Yes, I ran into that pain while working graveyard, myself. Simply no way to work around it.

Awfully uncharitable of all those construction workers to whom I'd just sold coffee and snacks, to make a bunch of noise and keep me awake, imo.

office complex across from house was being painted. 3 months of constant beeping from various ladder machines. Not a single room in house could block noise. I move a couple months later. Senior center across from me starts a major project. 2 months of beeping.

Eh. I live in London, that well known city.

Cars aren't loud here unless you specifically live on a major road.

What is loud is construction noise. Aeroplanes. Excitable drunks walking by at night. Sirens from emergency vehicles.

This is just what living in a city is. You have people and people do and need things.

Some of these are things we can control with infrastructure and regulation (e.g. why is your airport so close to housing?), and others aren't really what I would consider problematic noise.

Sirens are an unfortunate reality, but the reason they're so loud is because most cars have a ton of sound-proofing. I'm sure you know this, but you can hear sirens blocks away when they're trying to alert a driver... maybe 20 metres in front of them to move out of the way?

As for excitable drunks, I think there are places where that's a constant problem, but again, this isn't constant and permanent. Traffic noise and airplanes are pretty constant though - I live on what should be a pretty quiet stretch of land but the local stroad always has at least a few really loud cars in the wee hours of the morning. The rest of the day it's just lots of regular cars making a lot of noise as cars are want to do. At least with the excitable drunks they don't make noise all hours of the day, since they have to sleep or be drinking at some point!

I guess I don't understand what your solution is. Ban cars? Ban loud cars? Make cars have less soundproofing so that sirens can be quieter?

I'd be happy to ban loud cars, my understanding is that most places already have restrictions on stuff like e.g. motorbike silencers. Whether it's actually enforced is another thing.

If the solution is to ban cars because you don't like the noise, it sounds like you just don't like cars. They are pretty damn useful though, I'd put them in the category of construction noise - mildly annoying, unless it's yours, because you get the rewards then.

> If the solution is to ban cars because you don't like the noise, it sounds like you just don't like cars.

Guilty as charged. That said: the noise itself isn't entirely just the problem so much as how prolonged it is. Having buses and readily-available public transport that are only loud occasionally and on a fixed schedule isn't the same as a constant stream of traffic. Even if the bus or train is louder (and light rail is usually much, much quieter), it isn't all-day, only at fixed intervals.

There are marginal gains to be had. Reducing the amount of driving and traffic in our cities is good for a lot of reasons, but particularly with noise it's a combination of speed, vehicle size, and overall frequency of vehicles that makes a killer combination.

The solution is to place noise restrictions on vehicles (this goes against manufacturers putting off any kind of noise reduction), reducing speeds (this involves walkable / bikeable infrastructure), and expanding public transit like bus and light rail access to reduce the total number of personal vehicles on the road.

Yes, this will make things "worse" for drivers. But it's not the end of the world. If you ever visit Zurich or Geneva, you'll be able to distinctly tell the difference between an American city and a European city in terms of noise alone :) Zurich's tram system is honestly something that every city should dream of having, and it is as quiet as one could hope for.

Fair enough.

I'm British. I've been to Zurich, I've also been to Los Angeles, you could probably put them as being close to diametrically opposite in terms of transport.

I don't really see why they can't both exist. America doesn't have many places like the European capitals, even somewhere like NYC still has pretty wide streets.

I don't personally think that "reducing the amount of driving" in a place that already exists is a justifiable opinion for an individual to have, it's not like we're talking about knife or gun crime here.

A more sensible approach is to increase overall mobility. If that means replacing a lane with a tram it might make sense. We have a ton of bus lanes here in London and it works well.

“Cities aren’t loud; motor vehicles are”, especially busses and subways. They can be nearly deafening.

Cars comparatively are nothing.

Do you mean the pedestrian underpasses or the underground trains? Because the noise level in an underground train station is significantly less than at street level, it just seems louder because it is intermittent.

The SPL on the London Underground reaches maximum levels of >105dB (previous measurements on the Northern Line hit ~108dB, IIRC). Average noise levels on some parts of the deep underground lines (Victoria, Northern, etc.) can be well in excess of 80dB.

Depends on the bus, but my new “favorite” alert on my Apple Watch is the one that pops up in the tube between San Francisco and Oakland letting me know that it is now 90db and about 10 minutes of exposure to this level of noise can cause hearing loss. I believe it also accounts for the reduction in noise I’m already experiencing from my AirPods Pro, so this is 90db through the noise reduction.

Also it takes about 10 minutes, maybe a little bit less, to get through the Transbay tube. Maybe bring hearing protection if you take it everyday.

I don't think the watch and the pros are connected in that way.

You had me questioning whether I was misremembering and I couldn’t corroborate this on the web, but luckily I took a screenshot I think the first time I got this notification back in February because I couldn’t believe it either and Photos has full text search now.

Below is the text from that screenshot:

“Loud Environment Sound levels hit 95 decibels. Just 10 minutes at this level can cause temporary hearing loss. This measurement takes into account the sound reduction from wearing your AirPods.”

Except the cars that are designed to be loud. Engine breaking trucks are pretty bad too.

I find it fascinating. Jet engine combustion isn’t what you’re mostly hearing near an airport, when it’s really annoying.

It’s mostly the aerodynamic pressures coming from the flaps, the landing gear, and the angle into the airflow of the craft. Most planes are pretty quiet in cruise, in relative terms.

(Except for high-performance military-power engines that just don’t care. They have to defy gravity with much less stable glide lift. They also get to.)

> From photos, Tokyo can look almost unplanned, with neon signs everywhere and a huge variety of forms of architecture. You expect it to feel messy. What I experienced, however, was a city that felt almost like being in a futuristic village. It is utterly calm, in a way that is actually rather strange.

> And it took me a little while to realize why. There is simply no traffic noise. No hooting, no engine noise, not even much of the noise of cars accelerating on tarmac. Because there are so few of them. Most of the time you can walk in the middle of the street, so rare is the traffic. There are not even cars parked at the side of the road.

https://heatmap.news/economy/tokyo-anti-car-pedestrian-parad...

I believe the noisy shop thing is intentionally to discourage you from chatting. Chatty customers buy less. I think I read this in Trolley Wars.

I used to live on Decatur street in SF, at near eye-level with the I80 overpass. I could not get out of there fast enough and don’t quite understand all the residential construction right next to highways. The tire dust is a serious problem too.

They build by the highways because the NIMBYs have forced them too. It's basically the one place you can build without serious pushback. I hope we get some serious noise regulations.. maybe reduce the speed limits on the highways, that'll show them!! /s :)

Add to it the ridiculous sounding honks in trucks and other big vehicles, it really is causing a huge menace. I literally have PTSD for several honks we have over here in India.

Very strange that the Government here that is proud of its Bharat Stage(BS) regulations, does not factor in regulations for honks and the noise pollution that it is causing by and large!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad

as someone who has lived in multiple highrises, in multiple large cities both stateside and as an expat, above-ground subway is what's loud. after about the 20th floor, you don't hear the cars. The base floors are shops, then some offices - where the people live you don't hear cars. But boy do you hear the subway.

the reason the shops are loud, and the reason many offices have white noise generators or music in public areas, is so you and the person with whom you are talking have at least some level of privacy while in the middle of a crowd of people. in fact, even outside of privacy, it's a lot better to hear white noise or music, than the 20 individual conversations taking place around you.

This is what cities are - lots of people, not going far, everything is right there, and then you go up 20 floors for your quiet. If you need quiet, the place to be is not where you have thousands in density per city block. That would be like going to the indy500 and complaining about the noise.

As far as highways, a few cut through the city, but most of the city is not highways. They go around the city, with off ramps onto a few wide city roads, from which you get onto the tiny streets. There is not highway noise in 99% of the city.

leaf blowers in a city? car noise and leaf blower noise is immediate suburbs right outside the city. The urban noise in the actual city, where it's all highrises, but it's no leaf blowers, is subway, street performers, a couple of overweight (excluding an adjective because statistics look racist to some) women in bright spandex arguing, city outdoor events.

> Researchers have found that the more people are bothered by noise, the greater the health risks they face from it.

This is due to stress. I have wondered for a long time how increased education contributes to cardio vascular risk as we are learning things to avoid and when we encounter them cortisol spikes. This could be red meat or sugar or UV rays or lack of sleep or lack of exercise or in this case too much noise etc.

The average homo sapiens about a thousand generations ago faced greater adversity than what almost any of us has faced, particularly in raw nature where predators roamed. What were the cortisol levels like for that average homo sapiens?

We were always tribal and social animals, so I wonder if the security from communal living played a very important role in moderating stress and building resilience.

> What were the cortisol levels like for that average homo sapiens?

Much much lower actually. We use the same stress response for seeing a lion that we do to stress about making a mortgage payment. That's why we get ulcers and zebras don't

On top of that Homo sapiens also just had much more freetime and the median lifespans were actually not too far off from what they are today (~72 years[0]). Yes there was a huge dip in lifespans in (some) agricultural societies and when the industrial revolution started and there's definitely a lot of variation in difficulties faced but overall on average prehistoric peoples were healthier and much less stressed out than the average American is today. Also peoples that lived on islands and certain other ecosystems didn't really have to deal with predators at all. Predators are very unlikely to be the biggest source of stress in general as even the most dangerous of all predators, big cats, are very unlikely to attack a group of humans. As long as you're with your tribe you generally don't have much to fear.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20181002-how-long-did-anc...

ulcers are not caused by stress rather h pylori.

From what I understand a key difference from then to now were short term stressors that appeared solvable by direct (group-) action as opposed to modern day long term stressors that can appear abstract and outside of our own radius of action, resulting in paralysis and psychological/physiological harm over long periods of time.

Don't have a source on hand though, may have come from a book by Robert Sapolsky

Sure but we’ve always known about dying, the ultimate insolvable problem.

Why zebras don’t get ulcers!

for anyone unaware, this is a book by Stanford professor Robert Sapolsky:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Zebras_Don%27t_Get_Ulcers

The book is about stress and the impact of glucocorticoids on the body. The chemical stress response used in "the wild" by animals is actually the same as the stress response we have when worrying about losing our job, not being able to complete a paper for school, dealing with poverty, etc. It's a partial explanation for why modern humans have so many chronic diseases that are rarely seen in other animals (or even archeological/anthropological evidence of non-industrial societies but he doesn't really go there much in the book)

I also highly recommend Sapolsky's Human Behavior Biology course which he taught for Stanford but published on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnIGh9g6fA

Sort of. Now your cortisol could spike because of all kinds of things, none of which you can SEE. That's usually called anxiety. Back thousands of generations ago, if you were high on a rock by your cave with a good view, you knew you were safe.

Carrying this forward, we humans will have to work on better systems, because it's about to get worse/weirder. Our brains aren't designed to be good at detecting lies visually -- we have mental processes for speech, but visually, what you saw was always real. Now with AI in the mix, it's gonna get... messy.

>if you were high on a rock by your cave with a good view, you knew you were safe.

But you also knew that you had to go on the hunt again tomorrow.

So do you: it’s called a job.

And you still have to worry about traffic/accidents, performing well, getting fired or laid off, getting berated by customers/clients/bosses, plus any number of additional anxiety-inducing events.

Most of us would probably still take that trade, though: at least sitting all day kills you slowly relative to a mountain lion.

Hunt? More likely gathering.

They lived an average of how long? Enough to have kids at age 18-20, and help their kids raise their own for 2-5 years when they reached that same age. Evolution didn't equip us to live much longer than that.

> They lived an average of how long?

If they made it to at least 15, then probably on average somewhere between the 40s and late 50s from estimates I’ve seen.

(1,000 generations being probably < 30kya; there appears to have been a fairly radical expandsion in lifespan around 30kya, before that most estimates I've seen would have adults, by thrbsame definition, averaging sonewhere in the mid-30s or so.)

> Enough to have kids at age 18-20, and help their kids raise their own for 2-5 years when they reached that same age. Evolution didn't equip us to live much longer than that.

Huh? Humans can live upwards of 3 generations worth of humans. It's not uncommon for humans to remain functional enough to raise their grandchildren!

Peter Attia has an interview with Robert Sapolsky that was recently “rebroadcasted” - “ The impact of stress on our physical and emotional health” [1]

Highly recommended listening.

As a neuroendocrinology researcher, much Robert Sapolsky’s life work revolves around the questions your pondering on. He has spent years studying wild baboons in Kenya, “ .. specifically, Sapolsky studies the cortisol levels between the alpha male and female and the subordinates to determine stress level.” [2]

[1] https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-peter-attia-drive/...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sapolsky

> I wonder if the security from communal living played a very important role

You... wonder? It's a well known fact that tribal societies are hypersocial. Rugged individualism and loneliness are very modern things.

There's an interesting question whether it makes a difference that as human societies have modernized (through the agricultural, industrial and digital revolutions) the causes of stress have become progressively more detached from physical or existential adversity and the physical stress related to those threats (adrenaline, exertion, starvation, etc).

Who is to say that our ancestors coped with stressors? Evolution doesn't care about much other than your ability to reproduce.

short term stress vs. cronic stress

if you can, read Sapolsky's book about it "Why zebras don't get ulcers"

Research shows that being knowledgable about health risks is “the new smoking”

Friendly health experts still insist that 97% of the population still don’t eat enough cauliflower

>Friendly health experts still insist that 97% of the population still don’t eat enough cauliflower

So that's why they've put it in pizza crusts now...

Have you found any notable stories where someone genetically prone to stress has meaningfully overcome it? I tend to worry and control my environment but never quite find a sweet spot between knowledge and ignorance.

What about the colloquial increased education = increased stress. I’m not talking about the stress of trying to pay your bills on a welders salary, but the stress of running enterprise projects, teams, or being the top neuroscientist in your field. The stress from that is a different kind. It’s a continual stress especially for those that suffer from impostor syndrome. Anyway, interesting theory about cortisol spikes. Where can I read more?

Lower socioeconomic status is on average far more stressful than high SES.

Sure, it's possible to be relaxed about your lower status, but it's way easier to be relaxed about being richer: e.g., look at your coworkers who are quietly working for 4 hours and then going out biking in the middle of the day.

There's a cultural narrative that in some ways, richer people have it harder than poorer ones. It's responsible for underpinning the moral legitimacy of our class system, but I don't think it's actually true on average.

The thing is, no matter where you land you're going to find people who are unhappy or are struggling with their problems, but that's just because humans in general struggle with things.

Getting a chance to productively and quietly work for 4 hours is pretty unusual for a lot of us.

Personally I am able to find that more often doing chores around the house than actually doing work in the office... which must be why I love doing the dishes

You have that option though if you really seek it out.

In my experience people don't generally believe noise is bad for health beyond being annoying. Do you have any evidence for your belief the health effects are merely due to stress rather than being real?

(Or that noise isn't causing physiological stress)

You can find all kinds of rat studies where noise worsens rat health. The rats surely haven't been reading media articles about the effects of noise.

And many America cities flat out refuse to contain construction noise. As someone very sensitive to noise, it strikes me as pure stupidity and barbaric in how we construct buildings and fix our cities with no consideration of its effects. People act like they aren’t effected but most people seem quite out of touch with what actually effects their moods and stress levels.

Many US cities and town permit construction to happen at relatively early hours - like 6 or 7 AM. That’s usually not a problem if you’re a 9-5er. It is a massive problem if you work late shifts. My wife works in the restaurant business and 6 or 7 AM she’s still deep asleep. We had construction near our condo for nearly three years where spring, summer, and fall the jackhammers started at around a little before 7 every weekday. It was brutal for her. That, plus various other issues, lead us to decide our next home is going to be a quiet single family home in a suburb. Yes - a suburb!

Perhaps a similar study could be done in, say, India.

I'm not sure if it's due to their being used to loud/disturbing noise , or if Indians in general have some kind of ongoing inner Zen, but the amount of noise that the general population seems to completely ignore (e.g. a vehicle loudly and continuously honking right behind you as you walk) is really quite impressive.

I remember eating dinner at a restaurant in Rishikesh one night in a quiet remote-ish area. There were some workers about to unload a truck, and just in front of them on the restaurant grounds was a multi-generational Indian family all together enjoying their meal. I saw two of the workers casually hurl this big piece of sheet metal onto a metal trailer, resulting in a massive clash of ear piercing noise that the family somehow just ignored, not a head turn of annoyance (as would be typical in the west), just continue the conversation without skipping a beat -- amazing.

India's life expectancy is almost 10% shorter than the USA's (70 vs 77)

I really wish life expectancy was more granular and included a number with, like, deaths due to risky behavior filtered out. Judging by the internet I get the impression that things like "falling off the top of a train" are much more common there than in some other more risk averse and lower bravado places, and it's hard to tell how much that impacts life expectancy vs other lifestyle and environmental factors.

Those numbers are surprising to me. I would expect a much bigger difference considering the difference in wealth.

> a similar study

Similar to what? This article is the magazine's feature content editor writing about how he doesn't like loud noise.

I've long felt that the truest luxury in today's world is silence.

That definitely stands out to me about nicer homes. It's amazing to be able to open the windows or be in the garden and only hear wind and animals, and still be near shops and stuff.

Unfortunately, that luxury is out of reach for people with permanent tinnitus, along with those of us who are hyper-aware of the sounds of our own bodies.

I'll likely always prefer some amount of white noise to a totally silent space. A smooth-running fan has regenerative properties for me. Up to certain thresholds, I can turn that fan up to drown out the majority of whatever noise might be going on outside my room or building. It's helpful to be able to disconnect and float in your cocoon, whether for work, play, meditation or sleep.

I have tinnitus. And I feel that silence id the only true luxury. When I am in an environment that is so quiet that the only thing I hear is the hum of my tinnitus, I feel very much at peace.

I'm always curious: what is the effect of noise on the noise producers? As much as I have a disdain for leafblowers, and as much as I absolutely despise people who play bass-heavy music at night, why don't they suffer the same ill effects and heart issues as the people they subject noise to?

I'm not sure of the answer, but it's generally the case that things affect us much more negatively when we have no control over them and feel at their mercy. I haven't read TFA to see if they controlled for this, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was actually the majority of the problem.

Edit:

> Researchers have found that the more people are bothered by noise, the greater the health risks they face from it.

It would be great to do a study where people learn a technique like meditation to be less "bothered" by noise and see how that affects their biomarkers.

I used to live in an apartment where the upstairs neighbour would just randomly start trampling super hard. If it had been a constant noise - like the cars driving outside - my brain would probably have gotten accustomed to it. It seemed to me like it was agitating because it was at random times, when I wasn't expecting it.

When I turn on the bass, I am in control. I can turn it on when I don't have anything important going on and I can always turn it off. That makes the bass enjoyable. If it's somebody else's bass, then I don't know when it starts, when it ends and whether it will interrupt me. That's the source of frustration for me.

I'm generally fine with monotonous background noise, as long as it's not too loud. There's probably still some subtle passive effect on my health, but I can live with that.

Who said they don't?

That said, one difference is also that they do use their leaf blowers after they wake up first or are in the mood to do it, so they're not disturbing their own sleep or quiet time.

They wear earmuffs and aren't trying to sleep, respectively.

They do?

I don't know why you're being downvoted, but you're correct - they do.

It's not as simple as "they do" or "they don't." They seem to suffer less, and there are interesting reasons for that. GP is being downvoted because "they do?" is not a particularly helpful response.

this article about noise really resonates with me (pun intended)

in my most recent neighborhoods (newly constructed multi use ones)

* my neighbors would have all-night parties

* people would revv and race their modded sports cars and hogs up and down driveways and the street (residential culdesac) at all hours of the day and night

* teams of leaf blowering maintenance workers walked around during the day

* an open air venue opened across the street. they had loud, bass heavy music that made the walls and furniture shake, and drunk people screaming, fighting and loitering past closing time (3am)

* a cross fit gym opened across the street. they also played loud, bass heavy music that made the walls and furniture shake, with cargo doors open and trainers and clients screaming and doing intervals in the street (they opened at 5am)

* a bbq restaurant opened across the street. it had a vent that released basically unfiltered smog around the clock. it made it impossible to be on the balcony or keep windows open, and it quickly built up a brown, sticky residue on surrounding buildings. EDIT here is a recording of one of the vents https://photos.app.goo.gl/gxNBn5LGkZBCQc9o6 note that right above it are the residential balconies and windows of the same building - would you want to live there? + you didn't need to live in that building to get the "benefits", the smog was generously distributed all over the neighborhood and came inside and made the clothes inside your closet smell even if your windows were closed

needless to say, it's impossible to function while living in such an environment, so I moved, only to find the new neighborhoods also plagued by the same things. (in case anyone is wondering, this was Broadbeach, Newstead and West End QLD Australia)

me I'm a hardcore YIMBY. I want to live in a mixed use urban environment with entertainment, exercise, restaurant and everything you need around. but it becomes impossible if it's 24-7. common sense hours like 08:00-22:00 would be good. oh and breathable air.

many residents asked council and state government especially about the hours of operation of the venues (if bars play music until 3 and gyms at 5, when are we supposed to sleep?) and the unfiltered smog coming from the vents (100% hazardous levels, especially since it's all day every day long term), but they said all of it was OK.

I see so many people leaving NZ for Australia nowadays, and friends ask me if I'm going too.

I live 5 min from Wellington CBD, and apart from buses or the occasional construction work it's deafening silence.

Anecdotes like this make me feel so lucky.

to be fair, given that it's an entire continent, there's endless spaces where you can live in perfect peace and quiet

but that would be in solitude, not near any urban life lol

in urban spaces in Australia you're all but guaranteed having to deal at the very least with hooning and inconsiderate neighbours (I've lived in many different countries and Australia def stands out in how incredibly inconsiderate and aggressive people can be, and how large the share of the population are like that, lol)

I'm in a townhouse 4k from the centre of one of the big 3 CBDs and can't say I've ever had a problem with inconsiderate neighbours, though it's definitely possible to hear them through the walls from time to time. As for noise, the nearby (<500m) outdoor festival venue has definitely been a source of it a few times but surprisingly we heard nothing from the last few shows, probably something to do with wind direction and stage orientation. It's vastly quieter than anywhere 4km from the centre of many other big cities around the world would be (Rome in particular comes to mind - I remember almost nothing about the place we stayed in except that there was virtually never a moment's silence, ever, and it was a good 5km from the town centre).

Wow, I thought our mere 4 days a week of leaf blowers (and actually illegal but unenforced) was bad.

My stress levels decreased after getting a pair of AirPods Pro 2. It literally creates a cone of silence around me.

I wish there was something similar I could wear during sleep comfortably. I tried earplugs but somehow my sleep is less restful with them in. I suspect they either make my inside noises more noticeable or block airflow during night time breathing.

I guess the other more expensive solution is to move to an apartment facing a courtyard rather than the streets or to get heavy noise blocking curtains.

I know Bose used to make noise canceling sleep buds but I’m not sure how well they work. Since they’re discontinued I’m guessing not well.

I am a sensitive sleeper and after waking up from loud sounds and roommates for a while, I got Loop Quiet earplugs (I wear the smallest size), and I’ve been wearing them every night. Occasionally I pull them out during my sleep but they stay in very well and are definitely effective. I sleep much better now. I would recommend them.

Just got them in the mail (4 hour shipping). They're essentially like AirPods except without any electronics haha.

They're way more comfortable than any polyurethane foam earplugs and still manage to block out quite a lot of ambient noise (I probably wouldn't use these on an airplane, but they're more than good enough for the home). I just tried laying on my side and they don't press against my ears at all. Wow.

Thanks for the recommendation!

At $25 a pair they’re worth a try. Just ordered a pair. Thanks for the tip.

>I tried earplugs but somehow my sleep is less restful with them in.

Earplugs also tend to cause noise when you move your jaw, or even just slightly move your head.

I use Peltor X4A noise reduction earmuffs, with only the top of the head on the cushion when I'm on the side, that's the best I could find (its very dense foam makes it much better than a lot of earmuffs, also it's passive so no need for batteries).

You can also combine earmuffs with earplugs, it improves the reduction a little bit (can't do magic with some of the sound going through the body anyway), but you shouldn't need it unless your place is very noisy.

Peltor X5A is a bit better but much larger, so with it it's best to lay on the back.

With such good protection you might not ear your alarm clock, so instead you might want to use vibrate phone alarm with the phone in your pocket.

I’m a side sleeper and earmuffs press against the side of my head which might not work so well for me but thanks. And good point about the alarm clock — I wear an Apple Watch to bed for sleep monitoring so my alarm is haptic. It works great.

> My stress levels decreased after getting a pair of AirPods Pro 2. It literally creates a cone of silence around me.

I've never thought about this feature. It looks very amazing!

Related: Nearly 20% Adults May Have Misophonia – Significant Negative Responses to Sounds (neurosciencenews.com) 65 points by bookofjoe 29 days ago 98 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35317452

Urban sprawl and deforestation destroy natural carbon absorption reservoirs while removing natural sound buffers... Conversely, certain climate mitigation strategies such as creating green spaces in concrete jungles offer opportunities to muffle noise.

Yeah, we need to up our game on making better places and it needs to be a holistic approach.

Re the stuff about heart health and noise sensitivity:

Magnesium deficiency can cause noise sensitivity. Magnesium is also critical to heart function, specifically the ability to keep the beat.

Furthermore, noise causes physical vibrations much like the beat of the heart, which is something you can listen for in a patient.

Armies historically marched to the beat of a drum because you can feel the vibrations even if you can't really hear it over the din of war.

You can put a baby to sleep by calming yourself and then holding them in your arms. The beat of your heart will not only set the pace for theirs, it will lend their heart some of your energy, making it easier for them and helping them to relax.

Given the constructive ways vibrations can impact us, it should be no surprise that vibrations from noise can also negatively impact the heart.

I've heard many times in Colombia that it's customary to accustom babies to noise when they sleep. Also people love their subwoofers here, and partying until dawn. I bought an apartment in a community with a huge fraction of old people to escape that. I've seen people here sleep through experiences I could barely think during.

Even my own brain appears to have acclimated somewhat, though. Last week I got some nice noise-canceling headphones, and each time I take them off I'm shocked to realize how noisy the environment is, unless I'm at home. (Actually even at home, when I'm running the air filter, to protect myself from a different kind of pollution ...)

You forgot to include Colombian smartphone usage: max volume on speaker, then play videos and make phone calls.

I don't like leafblowers and other loud noises either, but isn't this article pretty thin soup?

"Stephanie Dutchen is manager of feature content and multimedia in the HMS Office of Communications and External Relations."

A lot of this boils down to the need for better zoning and stricter controls on what happens where when. Forces today are pulling things in other directions… build houses everywhere, even in places where it makes no sense to build houses.

We’re seeing things like former green belts around airports now being turned into housing developments. There were no houses there in large part because of noise. Now developers move in and build big developments there with new residents screaming about how bad the noise is. Can’t make it up.

The above is because more desirable places to live have been zoned for no new housing.

Stricter zoning isn’t the answer. Looser zoning is.

I wear noise cancelling headphones to sleep. When I wake up I feel immensely better, I recommend it!

A recent HN thread described how noise cancelling headphones may cause tinnitus. You might want to research that.

What model? Mine wouldn't probably last all night. And I assume you mean earbuds?

Do you think there's a meaningful advantage over using quality ear plugs?

I would like to know more about this. Do you suggest wearing plugs made for music concerts? Or they are completely different?

I wear earplugs every night. I personally can't imagine wearing actual noise cancelling headphones which would prevent me from moving freely and requiring a charge every night. But good quality earplugs (e.g. from Etymotic, Downbeats, or Loop) make a world of sleep quality difference, especially when paired with a sleep mask.

Any dangers in using a loud White Noise machine? We use it everyday for our baby.

My kid sleeps with some kind of white/brown noise since being around 2 years old. The child psychologist we went to with, now, the 6 year old recommended us to try to eliminate the noise. She seems to need it to fall asleep, but around midnight it should be easier, but we still have ups and downs with it. The psychologist said that it is a kind of a strain for the nervous system as it is kept being stimulated (at least that's how I understood and tried to translate it to English).

Neuroscientist Andrew Huberman covered some science behind exposure to white noise during development/using white noise machines with babies in his episode "The Science of Hearing, Balance & Accelerated Learning". Its nuanced, but he says there is some evidence it can be detrimental to a baby's brain/auditory system if used for long periods of time. https://youtu.be/JVRyzYB9JSY?t=3351

So long as it is 75 dB SPL or softer in intensity, you should be fine. You may want to consider acclimating your baby to be able to tolerate sleeping without the machine or with the machine at a softer volume. This can help set better sleeping habits in the long term.

Maybe it would be prudent to set it to less loud pending a definite answer to your question.

Whaat?! Don't do it.

How do y'all deal with determining what noise levels you'd have to endure when purchasing a new home/renting a new apartment?

I try to determine where the main sources of noise are and I ask about the insulation of the apartment (double glazing, thickness of the walls, the front door ...) with some experiences you will be able to determine your level of acceptance

A fully detached house, with good soundproof insulation and with a surrounding garden with trees and bushes is the best solution for people wanting a quiet place.

I find it strange that in our modern houses the “weak” sound is so difficult to get blocked, whereas the “powerful” light can be easily kept out.

I wonder if when you take affects like this into account if it really is safer to have large machines go "beep beep beep" in a warning that can be heard a kilometer away.

I feel like there's some kind do difference with noise tolerance between either culture or class. Hard to say, in the US foreign culture tends to be lower economic class.

There's a big connection between any form of externality tolerance and class IME.

I don't mind noisy DIY work, older cars polluting, parties on the weekend. It means that I can do them too.

As long as it's not preventing people from sleeping on work days I don't see the problem to be honest.

And social acceptance?

I have been suffering from chronic parastesia... which I can _hear_!

Falling to sleep and focus are challenges everyday. No pause, no break, no cease fire.

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