You open your safe and you use one of the recovery codes that you wrote down when you setup 2FA.
HN rarely does humor, but when it does, it really cuts deep.
Can you really expect a typical person - including the tech-savvy ones - to keep a hastily written piece of paper for a decade or more, without losing it? My code card is clocking on a decade, I needed it only once (so far), and it's only pure luck that, in all those years, I haven't accidentally destroyed it or thrown it away.
Also: it only recently became apparent just how bad it is to lose access to your Google account. Most tech-savvy people I know don't even realize how many things in their lives are gated by that little login form. Non-tech-savvy folks? Maybe they'll figure it out in a decade, after enough people became thrust into poverty for the lack of Google 2FA recovery codes - enough many that it's as boring news story as car accidents.
The best solution (for me) would be to connect the Google Account to my government issued identity and utilize the strong authentication provided by government for account recovery.
I think it would be great if the recovery mechanism for "ordinary people" took about the same amount of time as a notarized letter. In that worst case where you are locked out of your account for a week or two it won't feel great, but it also helps you feel better that some jerk trying to steal your stuff can't do it any faster either.
There are all kinds of fun technical things that could be used to actually build interesting "notary factor" tools. I think tech companies mostly reject how cool it could be to build because they see "slow" as a "bug" rather than a "feature".
It could even be a means of fighting spam/bots while maintainh anominity.
I heard those words uttered at my bank one day, and I became furious. I'd been using, in good faith, a licensed notary at a shipping store, and it turns out he'd been notarizing any damn thing I wanted without regard for proper form.
I had been extremely naive about notary publics, and when I ran into one with ethics, it cast the sketchy dude into sharp contrast.
Thankfully I've had no legal repercussions due to the invalidity of illegally notarized documents in the past, and I haven't needed to notarize something in a while since then.
EU ID cards also come with biometrics and NFC included, so they can be used to prove your identity digitally (there was a concept in France for an app that reads the NFC, makes you take a video selfie to confirm it's the same person, and then uses that to securely verify your identity)
It could be suitable, within certain boundaries, but no, given that sim swapping just means bribing (or simply social engineering with a crude fake ID) a minimum wage worker at a mall store, anyone whose identity is worth more than $50 to steal should never even consider it.
For example, if it could only be initiated from a browser where you have successfully signed in on at least two different days, or from a residential IP where you were seen recently.
I would much rather see a mailed postcard, as the last-resort fallback to a TOTP. Better to be locked out of your account for 4 days waiting for the mail, than to be locked out of it indefinitely while the criminal has full access.
> my government issued identity and utilize the strong authentication provided by government for account recovery.
Yes, that seems so obvious and yet to my American ears it sounds almost like science fiction. People here unironically argue that a national ID card is the Mark of the Beast from the Bible.
What happens to the homeless or move?
Mail forwarding is a thing for those who move, although TBH it would be prudent to use the "Do not forward" option on this, as mail forwarding itself is prone to fraudulent usage.
I guess if you've moved, you would need to mail them proof that you lived at the old address and that you live at the new address. I had to do that to claim unclaimed property with the state -- I had to send them some old bills or legal documents showing the old and new addresses.
No, it's not reasonable to expect everyone to be well organized. Life can be chaotic. People lose stuff. We know this. Some people are so unfortunate as to lose all their stuff. Repeatedly. The level of organization people have varies extremely.
But I do expect there are hundreds of millions of typical people with houses and sufficient organization to hang onto to their important papers, and it's a good idea to add your backup codes to your other important papers. It's good advice, though not always applicable.
Honestly, losing my passport probably wouldn't be as big a deal as losing access to my Google account.
> The processing time for routine applications is taking from 10 to 13 weeks up from six to nine weeks for those who applied before Feb. 6, the State Department said.
> Expedited processing, which costs $60 more, is taking seven to nine weeks, an increase from three to five weeks.
https://www.axios.com/2023/04/24/passport-delays-2023-proces...
Obviously you wouldn't be able to get in to your account to use google's built in tools because you wouldn't have access, but if you sent a letter to their legal team with proof of your identity then they would be obliged to process the request by law (as I understand it).
Passport is different from pass-code. Passport has no password.
Nearby, 'cause I travel semi-frequently. Otherwise, in one of few designated drawers. I only kind of care, because replacing it isn't hard, just annoying - and I don't need my passport to get a replacement one.
> Your birth certificate?
Wherever. I don't care. If I need it, I can file a form, pay a small amount, and get arbitrary number of copies from the local government branch.
> Any other important papers you have?
The only important paper I store safely is the booklet the military gave me when I turned 18, related to then obligatory military service (which I didn't go to because of minor health issues). I only worry about tracking it because I don't know the process to replace it, and the military is Serious Business - but then, I'm sure the process exists. Also, I don't worry much, because chances I'll actually need it for something are nil (if shit hits the fan so much that I'll get called into service, nobody will care about that booklet - they'll hear me speak fluent Polish, they'll give me a gun and send to the meat grinder).
Also, relevant: most of the important documents - like my national ID (replaced twice over the past few years), passport, contracts, etc. - have an expiry date on the order of 10 years or less. My Google 2FA codes already existed for more, and I expect them to be valid for the next 10 years too.
Personally, I keep these in my password manager. My password manager is offline-only, and the database is regularly backed up, so this makes sense for me.
Try as I might, my mother doesn't understand the difference between an iPad device PIN, an Apple ID (rarely needed), her email password on this same device (Google-based in this case) and add a few dozen more.
All she knows is the device in her hand. The abstract model we have where we separate device, service, app, web page, different companies...simply does not exist for her, it does not compute. So even if she'd have the discipline to write down things, it would still not work. She doesn't even grasp what part is asking for what.
There's a reason big consumer services like Google and Facebook have not enforced 2FA: a vast population will severely struggle understanding what the hell it is and what to do.
Even when you do enable 2FA on Google yourself, it runs in "soft mode". It doesn't ask for 2FA for previously trusted devices/locations. Surely for good reasons.
So passkeys would be very practical for her if I'm understanding you correctly.
As for the OP, it sounds really convenient but convenience is what led to Code Red Worm in 2001.
Also: where do you keep the encryption key for that thumb drive?
Yes, it's on the user, who else would be responsible for that? A Google employee isn't gonna go to your house to install a safe for you so you can store it securely. You can argue all day that the average person often can't be trusted with these things but I fail to see how this is anyone's problem except their own, at some point we need to stop treating adults like babies that need their hands held through everything and let them learn that their decisions have consequences.
99% of people don't need that kind of security any way, just keep a piece of paper with the codes somewhere hidden that you can remember, you don't need to have access to them all the time unlike a normal password.
Never underestimate the massive market advantage gained from treating adults like babies and handling all manner of frustrations for them.
UX researchers would call that "A good user experience."
I continue to believe that security for nontechnical users is not a solved problem. WebAuthN or whatever may someday help solve this puzzle, but only if someone packages it in a way that is so frictionless that it's easier than just using your birthday and initials as your password for every account like my dad did. And if the recovery story for the "All my electronic devices fell into a lake" situation is something less exploitable than the pathetic SMS. I'm thinking notarized letter as someone else pointed out.
2FA is usually imposed onto people.
For example google just enabled it for me, and also imposed it to most active python developers who published on pypi.
When first set up, the Google account really isn't something to care about. It only over time, and you getting used to all the conveniences it offers, that it slowly but surely becomes important.
Even as a technician i stopped caring about all caps and the license agreement. It boils down to two choices "You want to use this? Click yes and agree on things you don't understand" or not use it at all.
Do you consider your safe to be... safe? I'd imagine it to be relatively easy to get into, by picking the lock or sawing through the safe.
A decent home safe can be reasonable protection against that loose scrap of paper with backup codes ending up in the trash can and may even keep it legible in the event of a house fire. But it is true, it won't be much help if you are targeted by safe crackers.
Security is relative to your threat model!
As for drilling or sawing through it, that's going to take hours to do.
This is true for expensive commercial safes, but not for home safes. You can drill/saw through them relatively quickly. What you can't do is drill/saw through them without making a whole lot of noise.
Yes. I'm not taking about a safe like you can see in the movies. Just a locked box.
> Where I'm from, we generally don't use safes.
That's on you.
> Do you consider your safe to be... safe? I'd imagine it to be relatively easy to get into, by picking the lock or sawing through the safe.
That's not the point. 2FA is about thwarting password leaks. If someone has physical access to my house and knows my passwords, I'm screwed, yes.
But since I don't live in a Jason Bourne movie, my threat model isn't a ninja who steals my passwords then comes into my house to hack my tiktok account. My threat model is breaking my phone and knowing that my backup passwords are in a minimally safe place where I expect them to be and weren't carelessly thrown away with old documents; and deter casual "attackers" like a niece who could be inclined to plunder my papers for coloring material.
And if I did live in a Jason Bourne movie, I'd expect the ninja to just beat me up when I get home and unlock my safe for him, assuming I had bought an unbreakable safe.
Here I was thinking you might blow him up with the toaster. Or crash him into a garbage truck after an extenuated car chase.
> That's on you.
Wait, are we expected to have to buy safes to use the internet now?
It just gives you a single location in your house which you know nobody could accidentally open up and misplace the contents. It's where our passports and other foundational government documents, ATM cards, and yes, 2FA materials go. When you keep that kind of stuff in say, a desk or nightstand drawer, it's vulnerable to the 'oh crap, we cleaned out that drawer' attack, where you or your family members toss that stuff inadvertently.
Try a safe, it's great.
I was just reacting to the somewhat bizarre idea that owning a safe is something we should be expecting people to do for their online stuff.
* Single location for things you've only got one of, or which are super valuable and small
* Not somewhere that a burglar would just immediately check (rules out places like "nightstand drawer")
It sounds like you're just bragging that you've saved $50 by not having a true lock on your thing. I'm guessing you're pretty sure you've hidden it so well that a lock isn't worth "bothering with." Good for you! Enjoy your safe regardless.
> That's on you.
In some places the general level of trust is so high that things like theft simply does not happen.
Yes there's a possibility one might lose valuable stuff not kept in safes. There's also the possibility of loosing the keys (or forgetting the combination) of the safe.
And lastly, wouldn't it be so badass ironic if the safe sent a code to your email for verification? :D
You can glue them in inconspicuous "boring" places in plain sight, like under a mousepad or behind a movie poster hung on the wall.
Great way to hide secrets in your home without owning a traditional safe (which just screams "steal me! I'm the valuable thing in the room!" anyway.)
My backup codes are filed in an expando-file. There are far too many to cram into a wallet. Also, if I'm carrying them around with me when I don't need them, my risk/threat model now includes loss and theft of wallet. That's ridiculous and unnecessary.
Or just ignore the backup codes altogether. We mostly have "fake 2fa" - where you can reset your 2fa auth if you lose your device because otherwise customer support would be impossible. Almost every service allows this.
If I don't label my backup codes with account information, how do I know which code to enter when recovering an account? Trial and error across 20-30 scraps of paper?
I remember as a child someone broke into our house while we were away to steal stuff. The safe wasn't bolted down, and they carried it from one end of the house to the other before giving up, either because they got spooked by something and bolted or because it was just too damn heavy.
Think about the logistics of it. If they're stealing a safe, that probably requires a vehicle. A vehicle is more identifiable and unless stolen makes it easier to track people if noticed or recorded. If stolen, there's a chance it will cause a problem immediately before, during or after the crime. If they don't use a vehicle, all the benefits of not using one, such as being able to take non-road paths and blend into crowds are negated. And if they choose to crack the safe on location, that adds time to the crime while doing so, and all time spent at the location of the crime increases the chance they'll be caught because someone notes something suspicious.
Like a lock on a house a safe within a house serves it's purpose not by making it impossible to gain access but by making it much more troublesome and likely to be noticed, changing the risk to reward ratio.
Luckily by sheer fluke my phone was saved which has my TOTP apps on it or I would never get into anything again.