Hacker News Reader

Comment by ethbr0 | Hacker News Reader

On the other hand, are we really comparing the leadership of Afghanistan and Iraq to Ukraine and deciding these things are the same?

Last I checked, Ukraine hadn't invaded its neighbors, gassed ethnic minorities, or taken freedom from its entire female population.

The US handled Afghanistan and Iraq poorly, and lied about reasons for going in, but there were actual underlying reasons.

Ukraine is only being invaded because Russia thinks it can.

Hell, Ukraine explicitly gave up its weapons of mass destruction... in exchange for security guarantees... from Russia.

View on HN

Actually, Ukraine was forcing an ethnic, language and religious cleansing on its people in the two regions that petitioned for sovereignty. Read about this several years ago before all this stuff blew up and propaganda made stuff murky. Their current leader was put in place by a coup. The old regime was corrupt but that doesn't mean the new one is better. Ukrain was already in a civil war.

By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars.

IMHO, once military forces reach rough parity, civil wars should never be a justification for external involvement, because it always ends badly.

Internal problems need internal solutions.

If Russia and NATO had both stayed out of Ukraine, it would have been better for all Ukrainians. But we zoomed past the Rubicon on that when Crimea was invaded with actual Russian troops.

Well, I'm basing my next statement on a statement from an ex military individual from Crimea, but he said that the Crimea business was a backend deal and that the military in Crimea was explicitly ordered to not engage under any circumstance. The Crimea government had no desire to stand. I do agree that Russia and Nato should keep their noses out, but then I also think so should we. Russia being bad guys doesn't make Ukraine good is the point I was trying to make.

“By that standard, the UK, Spain and France are also in civil wars.”

Nice try. How do these compare at all to the Ukraine Donbas conflict? During the span of 2014-2022, the war in Ukraine (pre Russian invasion) between Ukraine and Donbas region resulted in the following:

Ukraine troops 4,647 killed, 70 missing, 13,800–14,200 wounded

Donbas troops 6,517 killed, 15,800–16,200 wounded

3,404 Ukrainian civilians killed 14,200–14,400 Donbas killed 51,000–54,000 wounded overall

1.6 million Ukrainians internally displaced; over 1 million fled abroad

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022)

> During the span of 2014-2022, the war in Ukraine (pre Russian invasion)

The Russian invasion began in 2014.

How do you think these 'separatists' got Russian anti air equipment and Russian MBT's?.

By that definition, the US invasion began in 2014 too. Who do you think primarily supplied Ukraine with weapons and training?

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/788874844/how-u-s-military-ai...

No, Russia literally had military presence in Ukraine by 2014, see the occupation of Crimea.

> By that definition, the US invasion began in 2014 too. Who do you think primarily supplied Ukraine with weapons and training?

Im not sure what you think an invasion is, but wouldn't a foreign power, stationing their military in your country without your consent qualify?.

Where as when you invite another military to help you out its not really an invasion?.

wtf, this is just a lie. Have your looked at actual casualty numbers in 2016-2021? i.e after the initial bloodbath that Russians started in 2014 and that finished in 2015.

it's been around 100 killed per year (both civilians and army) for 5 years before the current war - still 100 more than should be, of course, but it's less than the number of DAILY casualties since February 2022. Also, what you call a "Ukrainian Donbass conflict" is called a Russian military aggression, if you're not a pro-putin shill

> Read about this several years ago before all this stuff blew up and propaganda made stuff murky.

No you didn’t, since the allegation is directed at the post-Maidan Ukrainian government and there has been no time since that government existed that it has not been the target of intense Russian propaganda (and, also, war, the Russo-Ukrainian war having been launched by Russia as a direct and immediate response to the Maidan Revolution.)

Multiple actors can be horrible at the same time. The US is pretty horrible when it invades other countries, so is Russia.

As far as I know, Ukraine never had a military big enough to actually do any invasion of other countries, but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries.

Multiple actors can be horrible (<0 ethics), but that doesn't mean that their absolute ethics value is irrelevant, or their relative horribleness to others.

Russia is systematically deporting Ukrainian children to Russia and integrating them into Russian families as a matter of state policy.

They're also indiscriminately bombing civilian targets weekly.

Even during the worst days of Fallujah, the US and UK didn't pull back and just arbitrarily pound the city to dust with standoff munitions out of spite.

Ukraine inherited a substantial amount of Soviet materiel after the collapse of the USSR, as well as the personnel trained in its use, however this quickly deteriorated as the support industrial base was in tatters (in Ukraine and Russia).

But in the early 90s they absolutely could have made a very credible invasion against most of their neighbors. [0,1]

Especially, say, the Cobasna ammunition depot in Moldova that's right on their border with up to 20,000 tons of Soviet munitions. [2]

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn%E2%80%93Lugar_Cooperati...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobasna_ammunition_depot

It doesn't even compare. Countries unlucky enough to be invaded by Russia wished we were "conquered" by USA instead.

Uh, millions of dead Iraqis and Afghans are going to see your wish and say "sure, why not?"

> but if Ukraine was the size of the US with the military of the US, I wouldn't bet on them not being horrible when invading other countries.

It didn’t stop them from taking part in the invasion of Iraq:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Mechanized_Brigade_(Ukrain...

Dont bother, it’s a waste of time. I’ve gotten used to the idea that some people are pure evil.

Yes, people that don't agree with you are pure evil.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com