Effective Immediately: A central hub for people who've been recently laid off (2020) | Hacker News Reader

Effective Immediately: A central hub for people who've been recently laid off (2020)

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212 pointsderwiki97 comments

My suggestions:

- Cancel all non-essential subscriptions, services and expenses.

- Calculate how much time you can afford to be unemployed, and how to extend that time if necessary.

- If you employer provided you with medical benefits, make sure to get any important pending doctor visits before you may need to switch insurances.

- You can be professional and proud of your job, but your job is not your identity. There is more to you than what you do for a living.

- Keep a routine. Get up in the morning at a given time, take a shower, cook a palatable meal, go for a run, read a few book pages, don't stay up late. There are habit building apps you can get for your phone that are good for this.

- Your new job is to get a job. You should look at it in this way. You do have a purpose, you do have something to do.

- Do not ruminate! Do not revisit arguments that could have gone differently. Use what you can as a lesson and move on. Don't get stuck in the past.

- Do not drink. It won't make things better. If you want to deal with emotional pain, go volunteer at an animal shelter or do something meaningful.

- Be honest about it with the people around you. If you think your partner and friends will look at you unfavorably because you don't have a job, then they're not really on your side and you are better off without them.

- Be kind to yourself. Nobody is perfect.

> - You can be professional and proud of your job, but your job is not your identity. There is more to you than what you do for a living.

I see this frequently pointed out, as in not introducing yourself by your profession, etc.

But what are you then?

You introduce yourself as an uncle to somebody or a dad?

Yes there are things outside of working, but its a core part of who a person is.

It's part of what you do, and it does influence how you see things, but your life does not being or end with a job.

Your job friends, however friendly, might not necessarily remain your friends after you leave the company.

You can care about your job and your craft, and doing good for your customers to do your part in building a better world for everyone... but there must be something else outside that or your life will be pretty empty, and might even affect your job in the long run.

You can start by stating what you are good at.

“Hi I’m John, I’m good at basket weaving”

Why not?

Maybe at a basketball court but in a public setting? No body's going to take you seriously.

I don't need them to. I take my satisfaction from my baskets.

Most of my friends know I do DevOps/SRE which is relevant to a lot of conversations we may have. They don't usually know or care who I do it for.

That's what I meant, I will edit the comment to make it clearer.

Hi I'm ${first_name}.

I only ever ask what someone does if it's clearly relevant to the context in which I met them, such as their lunch break.

> But what are you then?

"What are you" is a fun question to ask, particularly when traveling. Most Americans answer with their race or job. Italians, in my experience, gave answers with their local heritage; in India I frequently got a religion.

Race?? Wow.

Around here you're more likely to hear what their preferred outdoor activity is.

Leading workshops in USA and Europe has been pretty eyeopening.

Americans: “I’m so and so from $employer where I do software engineering in the foobles department”

Europeans: “I’m so and so from $city where I live with 3 kids and enjoy basket weaving. For work I build foobles”

You have to explicitly ask Europeans about their employers whereas Americans seem to get completely consumed by their company so much they lose all other identity.

It's a puzzling observation, isn't it? By now, every at-will US employee will have internalized that they are disposable, and yet they continue to identify as a member of $COMPANY family. It's just bizarre, and I just can't think of an explanation.

Prestige?

Combination of an inherited Anglo class system and American corporatism.

I noticed this at 2600 meetings: "I'm so-and-so, I hack on $technology and I like to teach $interest", and some would mention their employer as an aside, but some wouldn't.

Whereas at tech-bro meetups: "I'm so-and-so, I work for $employer in the $technology group".

Gotta love the snide overgeneralization implying Americans are techbros.

Part of me understands that people have lives and don’t identify with work. But if that’s you, what are you doing with your life exactly? You only have so many years to live. Most of your waking hours are spent working.

If why you’re doing for work isn’t also your passion, it might be time to reconsider what you are doing.

> if you are putting on one face for your personal life and another for work, something is wrong.

Yet that's what most people do.

If the workshops are professional workshops, the American response seems more natural and appropriate.

Honestly, I would be weirded out if people start rambling about their kids and hobbies at a tech conference.

They were professional workshops. Your employer and your kids are equally irrelevant to the conversation.

I disagree. Not equally irrelevant. Your employer is connected to your profession, your hobbies/kids are not.

I attend a ton of AI/ML conferences (which count as professional conferences) all over the world. On almost all badges and tags, under your name you have your affiliation (company or university). You don't have number of kids or your random hobby on your badge for a reason.

See here for a list of badges (not my site):

https://data-mining.philippe-fournier-viger.com/conference-b...

After 2008 something that always sticks in my mind was nobody puts where they worked on their gravestone.

> Be honest about it with the people around you. If you think your partner and friends will look at you unfavorably because you don't have a job, then they're not really on your side and you are better off without them.

I think that last one is pretty damaging the way you wrote it. I would slightly change this to say "Be honest about it with the people around you, if your friends or partner evidently look at you unfavourably, then consider whether they're on your side or if it would be worth trying to keep them around, a direct serious conversation can sometimes do wonders for your relationships, and socially isolating yourself can sometimes be useful but oftentimes costly. (or something to this effect, leaning on tangibly being unsupported by your personal relationships rather than vague notions of anticipated rejection)

Merely anticipating people might not look at you favourably is kind of a separate issue.

Fair-weather friends are not true friends.

If unemployment can help you get rid of people that saved your contact as "Free food", that's a great thing.

That’s true, but neither are leeches. There’s a limit to everything.

Haha, this is so true. It literally happened to me once when I threw a large party at my place and one lady set it in her calendar as "gourmet food" and tried to bring her friends as well.

That's funny, I guess it completely depends on context how that might be interpreted. If she had a reputation for being a leech, negative, but otherwise I think it would be kind of funny or a compliment. At least I'm doing the food right

To be clear, my comment was basically about being your own destructive force, less so about dealing with real perceived judgement.

Unemployment can be inherently isolating. If you surround yourself with status-seeking judgemental people, that's probably not a resilient social circle, but you shouldn't project your own negative perception of yourself and try to preemptively avoid rejection

You don't want to isolate yourself, that's is for sure.

You also don't want to build relationships based solely on commiseration and draining others.

But you need to have some form of support from your close circle of friends.

Absolutely. I do wonder though what circles people are traveling in these days where they'd they'd straight up be alienated purely for that purpose. I would think the more likely situation would be too much attention from an overbearing set of family members, depending on wealth class maybe and ethnic background

> think your partner and friends will look at you unfavorably because you don't have a job

Friends, 100%. But I can see being uncomfortable sharing such information with a partner. Not because they'll think less of you. But because it could stress them out. (You should obviously still be honest.)

Wait, you're saying if you lost your job you wouldn't tell your partner?!

I'm thinking of https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnconfessedUnemp...

I regularly joke with my wife that I'm going to tell her I need to start going into the office 5 days a week, but tell my coworkers I still work from home most days.

My biggest mistake after being laid off was to not be discerning enough about my next job. You need to be willing to say no to a crummy job offer, even as the bills pile up.

Could you elaborate on that? I would think maybe in the very short term if you have minimal expenses and some savings, you have a bit of time to be picky, but not if you've got major expenses, dependants, or just very few offers coming in.

Like don't go agreeing to an obviously terrible offer, but this isn't a seller's market anymore.

Well maybe. You can consider taking a less-than-ideal job to give yourself a longer runway, while you keep looking for a good/great job.

As long as it's an "at will" job (as almost all are) you can quit in two weeks, two months, or six months if a better opportunity comes along.

That's true but better something than nothing, you can accept the crummy job offer, and then accept an even better one a short while later.

A temporary consulting gig is better than a bad job offer. It also doesn't stain your CV (Consultant doing something for a client vs Working at this horrible place) even if it's the same client.

I would disagree. Consulting work exposes you to more liability than being an employee. If you drop a consulting job midstream to take a great job offer, you're likely to get sued.

As someone who was contracting we always had notice periods in contracts. Let’s not forget it works both ways and contractors are more often than not the first to go.

Sounds more like a temporary employee than a contractor then. Maybe splitting hairs.

When I was freelancing, I would have a Master Service Agreement that spelled out the "rules of engagement" and the actual work was in a Statement Of Work that lasted roughly 3 months. Gave each party the ability to pull the rip cord

I’ve done consulting; you have control about how you write your contract. If they want to lock you up for a long period they should be willing to pay for it.

It's like blackjack: do you want to stay or double down?

Either way, you can win or lose.

But as with gambling, bankroll management is of essence. You don't want to lose more than you can.

I mean you can accept it and still be on the hunt for a better job offer, no? You wouldn't lose any opportunities from accepting the offer.

Sure. Some may even hold multiple jobs (Overemployed movement).

Nit: you're never in that position in blackjack. You only double when you have 9, 10, or 11, but you'll always hit that anyway. Some bizarre casino could theoretically let you double Ace-10, but that's just getting greedy.

Anyway, you meant stay or hit.

> Do not ruminate! Do not revisit arguments that could have gone differently. Use what you can as a lesson and move on. Don't get stuck in the past.

Ruminating is such a negative driver in a lot of our lives that I feel we should do better than internet advice.

It’s probably useful to rehearse decisions in the background, except when it’s overwhelming, and it makes me fall back into Tiktok addiction because only Tiktok takes me away from rumination, and I think we’re a lot of people who do something addictive just as an upgrade from ruminating.

But yes, ruminating ruins months, maybe years in a life.

Go see a psychologist if that is the case.

Just learn what rumination is, and when you realize you are doing it, just acknowledge that it is not useful. You can say "Hello there, rumination. I know it's you. Now it's time to say goodbye."

If you make thoughtful decisions based on information that's as complete as possible, you should be content with your decisions, whatever the outcome is, you did what you can with you had.

When you’ve been bullied, or when the end of the last job turned into negative comments all the time, rumination is a reflex.

Just think that you did the best you could with the information you had, the time you had. End of story.

Entertainment subscriptions are usually a negligible part of people's budgets. Hard to spend more than $100 a month on it.

Yeah, but what is a high expense when you have money is food! So time to switch to cheap meals, use the time to cook. Rice + Lentils, etc.

https://insanelygoodrecipes.com/depression-era-recipes/

Some low cost alcoholic beverages:

http://bumwine.com/ (just kidding, better not to drink)

> Calculate how much time you can afford to be unemployed, and how to extend that time if necessary.

I’d be interested in thoughts from others for whom this time comes out to decades, but less than actuarial time remaining. What’s the thought process between doing another turn on the hamster wheel now, when skills are fresh, vs in a half-economic-cycle or so when the market’s hotter, vs trying to stretch and stay off the wheel for good?

If your savings can be measured in decades, then you should look into some of the math and simulations behind the FIRE community.

While considering yourself financially independent may be more of an academic exercise, the most important thing you can gain is permission to chase your own fulfillment rather than numbers in a computer somewhere.

Our society rewards risk takers and when money is no longer a top concern, you can afford a whole lot more risk tolerance.

What's the advantage of taking risk in this scenario? It seems that the obvious goal is to minimize chance of running out of dollars before days, which sounds like risk reduction to me.

The “risk” may just be not getting back in the treadmill. The risk of marketable skills and your network deteriorating is real. But with years or decades of savings, “taking a risk” may just be pursuing an idea. Doesn’t necessarily mean spend a big chunk of savings.

I’m always surprised when these lists don’t include “apply for unemployment benefits”. Which should usually be one of the first things you do when being laid off.

At least in the UK, there are no benefits if you have savings.

This doesn't pass the smell test, and doesn't seem to be true. See e.g. [1].

[1] https://www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance

The limit is £16,000 and it's reduced after £10,000

In NYC — I was laid off and while I found a new job after a month and a half, and had savings, I still applied for unemployment. I got $400 a week for around three weeks. Not bad. Covered bills and groceries.

> I got $400 a week for around three weeks. Not bad. Covered bills and groceries.

How do people manage to find places to live where $400 a week is enough for rent alone, let alone groceries? Or do I just live in the worst possible area, paying $1600/mo for a small apartment, then having to pay for utilities too, and another $100/mo for internet, and that's not even accounting for groceries.

They live in government-subsidized housing projects.

Presumably you have some savings.

So if your monthly spend is $2,500 and you get $1,600 from unemployment, then you only need to spend $800 of your savings each month, not $2,500?

You just extended your runway by 3x.

Sorry, it was not for rent. It was for bills and grocery costs. Internet, electricity, gas, and my grocery store bills.

However, $400 a week for a month would be almost 3x the costs of the above, so some of that would go to rent.

@29athrowaway Thanks. Great guide. Good common sense stuff that is easily forgotten.

People forget the basics in the beginning and only start doing the basics once they hit rock bottom.

If you were a Sim in the game The Sims, how would you manage yourself?

Let's say your Sim is watching TV all evening and is sad, what would you do?

Something should be said about living off credit cards. Don't borrow, or if you must, do it with care:

- Don't cash advance from your credit card. If you must, do it with one credit card, then balance transfer to another. Interest for cash advance is usually very high. But you need a balance transfer card, I doubt you will be offered one if unemployed.

As far as credit rating: the most important bills are loan payments (credit cards, car loans and mortgage). Forget about rent:

Maybe you need to break a lease- it's a good idea to talk to your landlord. You are better off telling them, than not paying. They might let you break it without dinging your credit. Really once they find out that you can't pay, they want you gone as fast as possible so that they can rent to someone else. If you miss payments, they are missing income, in theory a much worse situation for them.

I don't get the point on rent, you suggest going homeless right away?

It depends on the situation: some people may be able to move back in with their parents. Better off doing this than ruining their credit rating- in three years they might be employed and trying to get a loan.

While I didn’t personally experience this, my dad went through bankruptcy and fairly hard times after the ‘08 recession and I learned a lot.

Not all credit is made equally. Don’t mortgage your house to pay credit cards, you can default on them and keep your primary residence. Don’t pay off debt before you break into your 401k. 401k’s are off-limits to creditors. And if you can’t pay something CALL them sooner rather then later. Most creditors would rather let you miss a few payments than default. And lastly, prioritize keeping yourself healthy, fed, clothed, and housed if it comes down to it. Being honorable or maintaining a good credit score is 100% bullshit compared to your health and well being.

Love the double meaning. That's one of those project titles that's so good that you pretty much have to follow through with the idea.

It reminds me of Key Values which is a job search site where you can list your key values you're looking for in a company, and it filters based on that. The name, of course, is punny for technical people.

This may also be helpful: "An Engineering Leader’s Job Search Algorithm"

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19fr_36WOzKlq_zyGP2RdxMEs...

Here is one bit of advice: Unemployment used to be paid by paper check (and I read that this is still possible, but also there is debit card and direct deposit). My advice: if you get paid by check, cash or deposit it immediately after receiving each one, don't wait. The state used to gauge if you still need unemployment by how quickly you cashed that check. If you appear desperate, they keep paying. For example, if your partner is working, then maybe you are not so desperate and wait a while before you bother to deposit it, then wham, you are cut off.

I imagine it's the same with their debit card, they get to see everything. I have no idea with direct deposit.

As far as I know, this is not done anymore, because in most case you have to file a weekly benefits claim by phone or online.

Yeah, you had to do that then also, but how do they know you really need the money? Long ago there was no on-line option, but there was an in-person option:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF2RYhNhBdw

An additional thing to add about unemployment benefits: today, they might be high-touch, high-bureaucracy, and not aligned with tech job searches.

I think maybe all the talk/reality of people disappearing from the workforce during Covid might've made some states much less trusting that people actually want to get back to work.

Personally, if I'm ever again laid off, and I can quickly have promising opportunities lined up, I'm not filing for unemployment insurance payouts, unless&until I really have to.

Also beware that unemployment insurance programs aren't the only potential urgently threatening layoffs-related demand on your time and nerves. (For example, health insurance company runaround hell throughout each week, because, you find out after months, they disagree with employer's Cobra enrollment confirmation letter, but seem not to want to simply say that. And needing a new HCOLA housing lease or mortgage while unemployed, so keep incurring/enduring all the reasons you wanted to move.)

While techbros know that normally one should be calmly focusing 100% on practicing for Leetcode hazings, memorizing STAR format answers to "tell me about a time when" for each of a particular company's Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, adding hot new keywords to the resume, networking, and sifting through recruiter mass-approach noise.

Anyone know about the utility of Covered California equivalents in other states? That market saved my spouse and I (we both have chronic diseases and can't afford to have bad insurance) post-grad school where we weren't entitled to COBRA (because grad students are neither students nor workers, apparently).

Every US state has an either its own health insurance marketplace or you access the federal one. You get access to it as soon as you’re no longer otherwise covered. Not sure exactly what you mean by “utility” but generally the plans are fine (and are barred from considering preexisting conditions to raise premiums or deny coverage). The cost may be high unless you qualify for a subsidy (as post grads might unless they’re paid unusually well).

Is there a site for recently laid-off tech workers, designers etc. to partner up on startup projects, welcome people, offer shares in them etc?

Because if not - I’d love to make one. Anyone here care go join me? With my platform I can put it together in a couple days.

I am a big fan of opting out of full time work for an employer, and towards building projects together. The movie industry does that a lot. And my company has experimented with these models for years… starting in 2016! (https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributi...)

Tangentially related: A flat tech co-op model could be good. Build tools to make starting tech companies much easier, then let members start companies with those tools for either some regular payment in either labor (eg. allocate headcount for the co-op) or cash.

The co-op owns office space, (maybe) helps fund companies, provides vetted staff to reduce interview overhead, etc..

Like an incubator? In India Nasscom and few state government funded startup incubators do this.

[2020]

There was a lot of support for people hit by pandemic layoffs 3 years ago. Some was from government programs, some from companies trying to help, and some from initiatives like this.

Despite the current tech recession being something of a covid bullwhip, I'm seeing none of that support outside the tech community. Unemployment claims are up 500% [1] YoY for high earners. At least in California, unemployment benefits cap-out at $450 per week, so this hits hard.

At the individual level, it's obviously painful. What isn't clear yet is the macro impact of all these high-wag jobs going away.

1: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-20/top-earne...

25+ years ago, I collected unemployment in Michigan. I was earning around $38k, and was surprised to learn of a cap. I think the unemployment cap was $200/week (or similar). I was telling a family friend that I’d been let go, and needed to file for unemployment.

“Oh that great! You get like 80% of what you were making, but no commute, you can watch tv, it’s great!”

I was panicking because it was something like an effective 60% cut with that cap. I realized at that point how far apart our experiences and work actually were. I started to explain the cap, then realized I’d be tipping my hand as to how much I was earning.

Looking back, he might have just been trying to make light of the situation a bit. I don’t think so, but it’s possible.

There should be a healthy amount of material about unionizing at a future job.

Union organization is only viable in a strong labor market. You have no leverage in a weak one.

It's an exceptionally strong labor market for software developers. It's strong enough for everyone else to organize.

> It's an exceptionally strong labor market for software developers.

Really? I've just been reading about hiring freezes and layoffs.

Most of the links for potential employers are not working (a couple do but e.g. ask for login just to filter). Is there anything better or more current?

make a website

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