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Comment by chimineycricket | Hacker News Reader

I'm a tabla player in (classical) training (still noob though). One of my favorite tala is called "Sardha Roopak", and it's a cycle of 10.5 beats which is trippy. There are other X.5 beat cycles as well.

Here's a video of someone playing a tabla solo in 10.5 beats

https://youtu.be/8e2L2mr3_W0?t=33

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I first heard L. Shankar playing against a 9.5 beat tala, and the concept blew my mind. In western terms, it means that the relationship between the rythm and melody (plus any harmony if there is any) shifts 0.5 beats every cycle: for one cycle, the rythm may feel ahead, or on time, and for the next it may feel on time, or late. It's a fascinating technique that I think has no true analog in western music.

It is true that many forms of african-derived music in the US will shift the precise position of beats to create swing/syncopation/dilla-time, but this is generally done on a per-note basis, not on a per-cycle basis as happens with a half-beat tala.

> It's a fascinating technique that I think has no true analog in western music.

Closest thing I could think of would be pieces like Piano Phase by Steve Reich.

Perhaps I am not conceptualizing this right, but it sounds to me like it is basically a hemiola, which can be found in a lot of western music, albeit not much in classical or pop. If you listen to math rock or stuff like meshuggah though, its all over the place.

Typically in music theory, we would talk about a hemiola as a rhythmic technique in which a rhythm in a simple (2) metric division is introduced in the context of a compound (3) division of the beat, or vice versa.

What the parent post describes isn't an isolated gesture like that, but a sustained state of overlapping meters, if I'm understanding correctly. In the case of the ICM described, as well as math rock/meshuggah/etc, I would describe the technique as "Polymetric" or maybe a "Sustained polyrhythm," and not a hemiola.

Gotcha, so does share structure with some niche western music but hemiola is kot quite the right term for it.

I like teen thal and allochotal (not sure of spelling). What really blew me away was listening to zakir Hussein speaking drums, there's some very well developed verbalization of percussion that is a form of poetry I'm not sure what it's called.

> there's some very well developed verbalization of percussion

It's called bol[1] in Hindustani music, and koṉṉakkōl[2] in Carnatic music. The basic 4-count syllables are 'na dhin dhin na' in the former, and 'ta ka dhi mi' in the latter.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bol_(music)

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konnakol

Both are easily heard and seen performed by live musicians in the archetypal North and South Indian dance forms, Kathak and Bharatanatyam respectively.

For the life of me I couldn't cope with western bar notations especially regarding polyrhythms/polymeters trying to follow accents and groupings ... it gets unwieldy

So in the spirit of "pass the goddamn butter" [0] I was introduced to konnakol via this book [1] some time ago. There seems to be a lot of truth in the the notion: "if you can say it you can play it". Once I can "vocalize it" it is way easier to translate that into the instrument itself. It is very intuitive to learn this e.g. the "takadimi" route.

[A pretty fun dissection of a Meshuggah song with the help of konnakol.][2]

[0]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NI4QAh_V3w

[1]https://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Ta-This-Precision/dp/19300800...

[2]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2iyd2zkgOU0

I think you are exactly correct. My big revelation in graduate school (music performance) was the idea that vocalizations of music "short circuit" our learning process and tend to get a performer closer to what we'd call an "expressive" or "musical" rendition. Notated music's function is simply to give a systematic way to for people to reproduce/recreate an aural experience, but it is a "lossy" format that western classical musicians have to spend years training in performance practice and interpretation to adequately recapture the expressive elements that are not easy to capture in notation but are vital for engaging performances.

Teen taal definitely, everyone loves that. Usually the first taal people begin to learn playing. I think you mean "ada chautaal"?

Yes the verbalization is called the "bol". "Bol" in hindi means things like "word", "speak", "lyrics", etc. Indian classical musicians don't use sheet music, so they have to orally pass down their teachings. The bol that Zakir Hussain (and all other tabla players) say _are_ the notes that they play. Word for word/note for note. Each sound on the tabla has its own name, which is expressed as an onomatopoeia like "dhin". Then you can verbalize the percussion you're about to play.

https://youtu.be/e8tfg2GBYP8?t=1549

Here's a great composition being verbalized, explained, and played by Zakir Hussain and his brother.

Thanks, I've been looking for that video.

The track I'm thinking of is Raag Bhimpalasi (from the excellent album, "Ravi Shankar: Sounds of India") which seems to be ada chautaal.

I'm a Hindi speaker in training, but not music theory. I'm curious what they're named for?

Quoting the article:

> For instance, Teentaal (16 beats) is made up of four sections of four beats each, while Ektaal (12 beats) is made up of six sections of two beats each.

why is 'three rhythm' four beats/bar (and four bars repeating) and 'one rhythm' two (six)?

It’s the number of claps that matter.

Teentaal: there’s a clap on beats 1,4 and 12. No clap on 9. Ektaak: Just one clap on the first beat.

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