Programmers: How do you find jobs without the help of recruiters? | Hacker News Reader

Programmers: How do you find jobs without the help of recruiters?

13 pointstheindiedev17 comments

I've had about 5 jobs over the past 6-7 years, some full-time, others contract. All of them have been from recruiters and they all suck.

I love programming but hate the industry. Whenever I talk about the problems that I'm having in the 9-5 world of programming, I'm almost always told to move jobs, avoid recruiters and that there's always perfect job out there for me... but where are they?

How do you go about getting a job, without a recruiter?

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Recruiters just line you up with job openings. They don’t force you to take a job. They don’t make a job suck. Blaming recruiters for jobs you regret is like blaming the waiter when you ordered the wrong food.

> Blaming recruiters for jobs you regret is like blaming the waiter when you ordered the wrong food.

It's definitely on you as the job-seeker to ensure that the role is an actual fit on multiple levels, but there's certainly recruiters out there that can be unscrupulous and will deliberately steer you towards roles that may not be in your best interests. Over my ~13 year career in the industry I've encountered some great recruiters but for every one good one, I'd say about 3-4 were just in it to collect their commission/fee/etc and move on to the next. Issues I've had to deal with:

1) People using recruiting simply as a stepping stone to something else - these types had no incentive to ensure long term job-seeker satisfaction and would often try really hard to get me to accept a role even if it was far below my acceptable comp range or in an area I didn't have much interest in, because they were desperate to meet their billing quota or whatever for the quarter

2) Some would neglect to mention things such as high churn (due to poor management or overworked staff), boring work (maintaining legacy systems with little to no greenfield dev involved) etc and instead only focus on the positives

Essentially, their loyalty lies with those paying them, and it's worth keeping this in mind anytime you find yourself working with a 3rd party recruiter. Those that've been in the industry for a while probably already know this, but for newcomers or those that just haven't worked much with them, these are important things to be aware of.

I should highlight however that there's some upsides too, the biggest one being the ability to bypass the usual hiring pipeline since the recruiter has a working relationship with the hiring manager.

Right. Recruiters get paid by the employer, so they have a clear motivation to make quick placements. Nothing dishonest about that, just understand the business model.

Recruiting has a low bar to entry so you deal with recruiters who don’t have good contacts or don’t know much about the field and required skills. Eventually you find a good recruiter, someone who can match you with good jobs.

Bluntly, many of the better employers are going to balk at your work history. 5 jobs in 7 years is kind of a red flag. Employers (both good and bad) prefer someone who will stay for several years; the better employers get to be choosy enough to get that. A recruiter can't do much to fix that.

As for your actual question: There are better recruiters and worse recruiters. Don't avoid them all, just learn which ones are worth dealing with.

I recently (January/February) did a job search. I reached out to some recruiters I trusted from previous experience. I also went looking on Indeed and Monster. (Those were better ten years ago than they are now.) I posted my resume on Indeed, which got me spammed by recruiters that threw everything remotely technical at me, even though most of them were things that I explicitly was not looking for. I forget where the actual job came from - from a recruiter I reached out to, or from Indeed.

It's a numbers game. You need to look at maybe 30 openings, maybe more. To find those 30, it can help to have someone shoving openings at you - someone like a recruiter. But of those 30, you need to weed out most of them quickly (say 20 out of the 30). They're a bad fit, or they're bottom-of-the-barrel businesses just looking for a body who can kind of do the work. You need to develop a sense for which ones to rule out.

The number of places that you should seriously pursue you can probably count on one hand. But you may need help finding them, and it may take time. Don't be so desperate to get out of your current place that you just take the best offer you get this week - you'll wind up somewhere else lousy. Take the time to find a good place.

I change jobs every 6 month. Not a problem depending on task and Pay. Plus you can always '' lie ''. Which most do right?

No, I don't think "most" lie. I think some do, but "most" is probably rationalizing.

OP mentioned some of the jobs were full-time, and some contract. Assuming a few 3,6 months contract jobs (not uncommon) it is not necessarily a red flag.

I mention this because I see many people reading contract jobs and evaluating it in exactly the same way as a full-time position. Many wonder, how come they list several jobs at the same time? less than a year? and discard the candidate.

There's nothing wrong with recruiters. They are there to help you find a job. Companies have in-house recruiters, and recruiting agencies get paid by the company that hires you (at least in the US). They're basically a free service for you -- you should take advantage! Most of my best jobs I've gotten have come because I have a great relationship with a few recruiting firms that specialize in the area that I work in.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I think you might be experiencing internally is the recognition that recruiters aren't necessarily your BEST advocates. They advocate for you, but there are plenty of fish in the sea, after all, so if you won't get the job, they'll move on to someone else.

As a hiring manager, the best signal is a referral from someone else in the company. Depending on the strength of the referral, it could be practically a guaranteed outcome. My best hires have come through referrals.

So how do you get referrals? Build relationships with your peers! Talk to friends that work at other companies, go to tech conferences, join a local meetup in your area of interest. Build genuine relationships -- not just superficial "help me find a job" relationships -- and you'll be rewarded on a personal level, if not a professional one. I got my start in the industry because a friend of mine vouched for me.

The advice to "avoid recruiters" is misguided at best, but I understand why folks don't like them. But I'd find a recruiting firm that specializes in your area, whether that's backend or frontend or contracting or leadership or AI or database systems, and be really open to having them help you find the best positions. They are far, far more connected than you are -- and a recruiting agency wants to get you the most money possible!

How do you find these recruiting agencies? Well, ask around to people you know. Ask hiring managers in the field that you're interested in. Check LinkedIn often. Search for recruiting agencies on Google or Bing.

Good luck!

Some friend of a friend always have something interesting going on. But interviewing them is key. Remember the interview process isn't just about them accepting _you_, it's equally (or even more) about you accepting them.

Take references (talk to people working there about what the environment is like). Make sure they're a good team fit (make sure to have interviews with the people you'd be working with). Ensure they're as competent as they say they are (talk to people there working with similar stuff as you to ensure they know what they're talking about). Et.c. et.c.

Once all of this is cleared, you can start talking about salaries and other superficial things.

Best source is referrals. Join hackathons, talks, etc. Meet people. Let them know when you're job hunting.

HN is a really good source too if you're willing to put yourself out in the open. I got some top tier responses there, well paid, reasonable interviews.

Recruiters as in independent agents that contact you or help you find jobs? not that there's anything wrong with them, but I tend to apply directly to companies and search Linkedin, other (professional) social networks or ask friends about openings.

Some recruiters will cheat you into applying to positions you don't want, but you are responsible to ask your interviewers the right questions. Recruiters can sometimes help negotiating better terms or solve conflicts, so not all are worthless.

0 Go to interesting company's site

1 File application

2 GOTO 0

Below are some great places to look for roles

Angel list remoteok linkedin hackernews: monthly who's hiring post your network

angel list used to be pretty decent a few years ago so I second that. no idea what it's like now though.

Start talking to people or tech guys from other firms, usually an internal referal goes a long way.

Former colleagues and job listings at companies where I have former colleagues.

email Direct? or email Direct getting past Receptionist?

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