Will UT Austin and Texas A&M survive beyond this week?
scottaaronson.blog
scottaaronson.blog
> Scott Says: Comment #12 April 17th, 2023 at 11:26 pm So, why shouldn’t I cheer the destruction of universities, if they’re full of woke ideologues who hate me? One might just as well ask: why shouldn’t I cheer the destruction of the earth, if it’s full of assholes, and morons, and antisemites who’d probably kill me if they got a chance, and wild animals that would rip me to shreds? In both cases, the answer is simply: because this is my world, and nearly everything I love and cherish is here along with nearly everything I hate, and I believe that the former ultimately outweighs the latter, and if people don’t mind, I’d like to continue living in this world.
It's a quest for victimhood to justify hate.
At 20 or so, I was more of the latter two than I am now, not at all the last one that I can tell and conscious of my failings at the second one. Product of Chicago in the 70's.
The insult came, if I remember the sequence of events correctly, after I said that in my experience white people can come by racism from daily experience, not just other people spewing it. I was mugged five times from 5th grade through high school, jumped for fun once, had an older girl say "come here little white boy, let me set your hair on fire" holding matches when I was in second grade, and had a crowd of 5 or 6 follow me and a friend home chanting "honky" and running up to almost touch us, I think around 6th or 7th grade. I've never been anonymously attacked by a white person, just a statistic but it's mine. I've also had plenty of black friends over the years.
When I was in college I did a small thesis on race riots in Chicago. To my suprise, most have been whites rioting against blacks, especially moving onto a white block, and they were mostly not reported on in the papers to avoid spreading the word. I gained total sympathy for the shit they went through, and of course their kids would grow up feeling the burn too and trying to maybe even the score. It just creates a cycle that sucks. Gandhi and King were right, though progress hurts while the cycle is getting stopped.
In December 2014, Scott posted a comment [0] in a discussion on his blog about how, as an adolescent, he had struggled greatly with anxiety issues, and how he believed that some messages some feminists were broadcasting had contributed to his mental health problems. And in response, a huge number of online feminists decided to publicly denounce him in a massive pile-on; Amanda Marcotte's contribution is representative [1]
Ever since then, some "woke" people have been convinced that he's a "bad person". And he's said other things to upset them since, e.g. publicly disagreeing with proposals that his field (quantum computing) abandon some of its technical terminology ("quantum supremacy"), which some claim "makes women and minorities uncomfortable in our field" [2]
So yes, Scott really is on the receiving end of a lot of online hate from certain people, and it has never stopped–including trolling campaigns against his blog [3], demands sent to his department that he be fired/disciplined, etc. And Scott calls the people behind this campaign against him "woke" (or even, as he does in this blog entry, "wokesters"). I know a lot of people have an allergy to that word, but can you see how it makes sense from his perspective? Why shouldn't he use it?
[0] https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2091#comment-326664
[1] https://www.rawstory.com/2014/12/mit-professor-explains-the-...
> And oh, your wife? I lookrd her up Scott and… She’s maybe a 3 on a good day. You know, maybe a 6 at a MAGA rally where all the other chicks are fat midwestern racists. She’s got that TERF Karen look Scott. Let’s be real, you wish you could have bagged one of those hot blondes instead but that’s what you ended up with. I really doubt that’s satusfying enough to keep you from lusting after your younger hotter students. God you’re such a fucking sexist creep.
Sounds like an obvious troll to me (and to some of his other commenters). But he replies in full earnestness to him. Probably a mistake, but I'd still put the blame on the troll rather than the victim.
Anyway, what a cesspool. I'd enjoy reading his blog but I don't need that toxicity in my life.
Unless I’m misunderstanding what you are saying. You started talking about “my people” in a conversation about “wokeness”, I thought you were self-identifying as “woke”, and I’m probably not the only one who read you in that way. Now you say by “my people” you meant trans women, which leaves me confused about what you were trying to say all along.
You also speak of a “cesspool” and “dehumanizing comment threads” and I’m wondering what you are actually calling those things and why you are calling them that. Again, I suspect you may have the wrong impression, but I’m not entirely sure what you mean, so maybe my suspicion is based on misunderstanding you.
So to sum up, I have nothing against Scott, I'd greatly enjoy meeting him and reading his blog, I just had a bad time in the comments section today.
But what about Amanda Marcotte's vicious public attack on him? (And many other less well-known figures besides). She's now a senior journalist employed by Salon.com, I don't think she can be so easily dismissed as just a "troll"
Yale invites speakers who talk about their fantasies of killing white people. Mainstream feminist websites do backflips trying to sugarcoat that they think every single man is a threat.
> Yale speaker says comment about killing White people was meant to spark deeper talk about race
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/06/09/yale-lec...
> But the socialization of men is such that even a good man – a supportive man, a respectful man, a trusted man – has within him the potential for violence and harm because these behaviors are normalized through patriarchy.
> And as such, we know that even the men that we love, never mind random men who we don’t know, have the potential to be dangerous. Surely, all people have that potential. But in a world divided into the oppressed and the oppressors, the former learn to fear the latter as a defense mechanism.
> So when you enter a space – any space – as a man, you carry with yourself the threat of harm.
https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-...
More narrowly the demographic that loves censorship is of the left now.
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/professor-terminated-art-h...
> In a controversial move, an adjunct professor at Hamline University in St. Paul, Minnesota, has lost her job after showing her class Medieval paintings depicting the Prophet Muhammad, founder of the Islamic religion.
Ezra Klein supports laws he believes will lead to miscarriages of justice because of the political consequences.
> "Yes Means Yes" is a terrible law, and I completely support it
> For that reason, the law is only worth the paper it's written on if some of the critics' fears come true. Critics worry that colleges will fill with cases in which campus boards convict young men (and, occasionally, young women) of sexual assault for genuinely ambiguous situations. Sadly, that's necessary for the law's success. It's those cases — particularly the ones that feel genuinely unclear and maybe even unfair, the ones that become lore in frats and cautionary tales that fathers e-mail to their sons — that will convince men that they better Be Pretty Damn Sure.
https://www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6966847/yes-means-yes-is-a-te...
But the people trying to boycott the game couldn't leave it at that. They bullied and doxxed streamers just for enjoying a game without gender politics.
Because of perceived slights they resorted to becoming actual bullies.
We have come full circle.
JK is a 70's-era radical feminist who's always been a little transphobic (that was the era, everyone was) but in this decade got sucked into the feminist-lesbian-to-TERF pipeline and dug her heels in when people started calling her out for it. Ever increasing levels of escalation on both sides later she's weirdly become the most prominent transphobe in the English speaking world and throws her weight behind hate groups like the LGB alliance. She even got a shoutout from Putin for it which is kinda funny.
This is no way whatsoever justifies being mean to someone playing a video game but it's not hard to see how we got here. We live in a world where absolutely horrible people are so completely insulated from the consequences of their actions that the people who are harmed by them are pretty much powerless to do anything and have nowhere productive to direct that anger and frustration. In a less civilized time a mob would have shown up to her house with pitchforks years before it got to this point.
Given these facts, can you really not understand why people see that sentence as transphobic? It doesn't accurately describe our social landscape, and it hurts some of the more vulnerable among us.
What usefulness do objective facts and the truth hold?
>It is true that in our society some people who you'd socially describe as men are able to get pregnant
That is not true at all. It's actually a gross inversion of the truth, a foundational feature of Big Lies. There are trans-men, who are actually women, that may get pregnant, but they're by definition not men. They are human females, AKA women. No amount of cross-dressing and body mutilation will change that.
>because they have biologically female sex organs
Yes, they're women. Glad we agree.
>We also know that following their social wishes (i.e. referring to them as men) dramatically increases their quality of life.
"We also know telling schizophrenics that the coffee maker IS indeed an evil demon and removing them from the office will dramatically increase their quality of life."
No, feeding into delusions will not increase their quality of life.
>Given these facts
"Given the fact that the coffee maker is a demon".
>can you really not understand why people see that sentence as transphobic?
"can you really not understand why not believing that coffee makers are demonic is schizophobic?"
>It doesn't accurately describe our social landscape, and it hurts some of the more vulnerable among us.
It does accurately describe our social and biological landscape. If biological realities, truth, and objective facts hurt "the most vulnerable among us", it sounds like they have a mental illness.
No they haven't, and you don't need to be doctor to know that.
>I know that doesn't matter to some people, but a lot of us do care.
Lot's of people care about factually incorrect things that go against narratives for sure.
> No they haven't, and you don't need to be doctor to know that.
Do you have studies that indicate this, or do you just believe this to be true? The latter part of your response strongly points towards one side, but I'd like to give you the chance to send any contrary data, if you have it!
> That is not true at all. It's actually a gross inversion of the truth, a foundational feature of Big Lies.
Please read what I write carefully. I specifically said "socially describe". Do you walk through your whole life checking the genitalia of any person you interact with to make sure you refer to them by their biological pronouns? Or do you rely on social cues (e.g. their looks, outfit, hair, voice and so on) and assume their gender? I really hope it's the latter.
Now please read my earlier response again with the correct understanding of what the words I type mean.
>> We also know that following their social wishes (i.e. referring to them as men) dramatically increases their quality of life.
> "We also know telling schizophrenics that the coffee maker IS indeed an evil demon and removing them from the office will dramatically increase their quality of life."
> No, feeding into delusions will not increase their quality of life.
Can you show me studies that indicate this? I don't care for what you believe, I care about data and studies.
>> Given these facts
> "Given the fact that the coffee maker is a demon".
>> can you really not understand why people see that sentence as transphobic?
> "can you really not understand why not believing that coffee makers are demonic is schizophobic?"
Next time make sure not to go overboard with mocking the other person, or at least wait until you've made sure you understand them correctly. Since you fully misunderstood the opening of my earlier response this reaaaaally makes you look bad.
So look, I don't know, I obviously fall on one side of this issue but disagreement on it is more American than apple pie at this point. The idea that certain kinds of speech manifest in real life harm is the basis for hate speech laws around the world.
I'm just gonna quote Germany's legal code because they distill what hate speech is better than I could. "Assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioned group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population, or defaming segments of the population." In my view you can only say "la la sticks and stones" up until the point where all the dehumanizing speech turns the political tide and the cultural forces that keep people from wantonly harming particular groups fall apart and we get articles like
* 2022 - https://reports.hrc.org/an-epidemic-of-violence-2022
* 2021 - https://reports.hrc.org/an-epidemic-of-violence-fatal-violen...
* 2020 - https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-trans-and...
* 2019 - https://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgend...
* 2018 - https://hrc-prod-requests.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/files/a...
It's really depressing they can fill one of these articles out every year.
Also, 44 GNC or trans people were murdered in 2020 and I'm supposed to be concerned? How do we know they were killed because of their identity?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/09/pimmelgate-g...
What has she done to become the most prominent transphobe in the English speaking language?
This is the same woman who made Dumbledore gay to appease Twitter. Retconned characters to different races to appease Twitter.
What she took issue with was women being labeled as 'birthing person'.
I can see how we got here, and claiming either she or the game causes people real world harm isn't disingenuous, it's outright lying.
They also called her a literal nazi ti the point the BBC had to apologize after she had enough and sent lawyers after them.
Twitter isn't real.
That aside, I find it interesting that you're honing in on JK Rowling. If speech really does cause violence, then lots of speech is causing violence, including speech with which you agree. It seems notable, then, that you're going after speech with which you disagree. Makes me think the whole "speech causes violence" argument is a ploy to attack speech you dislike.
"Woke" is a synonym of "enlightened." Don't trust anybody who claims to be enlightened, or rails against enlightenment.
And now I find my self using the term occasionally to describe a set of views without really engaging with them. Such as when someone showed me some pictures from their cruise (which was neat, they’re an engineering nerd and carefully detailed some elements of the ship) but had to give me a cruises are evil disclaimer before uh, saying well I went on one anyway, family, and so on. “the typical woke reasons.”
An arbitrary example I saw yesterday:
An elderly white man was leaving a parking lot with one-way traffic flow. A young white woman was standing in the road talking with a friend. He pulled few feet away from them, waited, then politely asked them to move when they didn't.
One woman started accosting him about entitlement, white privilege, male privilege, and refused to move. The scene went on for a while until he was able to reposition the car and barely drive by her brushing her with the car.
These are the "woke" people who are poisoning the well for others. They just use it as a pretext to rage and hate on strangers simply because of their race, age, or gender.
I'm not saying this is typical behavior, just an interaction where someone probably felt targeted.
In a more general sense, I have been told by hiring managers and recruiters that white males shouldn't bother applying for some jobs. That certainly made me feel angry and targeted by ideologs.
The term "woke" is supposed to be related to awareness of racial injustice and inequality. Not one group exercising prejudice and bias and against another based on ethnicity. Furthermore, this term has become a label associated with loaded language employed by the conservative right to vilify opposition. It is a reflexive control word and propaganda device to used to focus hatred and resentment from conservatives towards any aspect of culture or ideology contrary to their interests, regardless of it actual relevance to racial injustice. So when you start calling assholes "woke", I am not sure if you are conflating the meaning of it because you are a victim of this propaganda or if you are intentionally using the term to foster resentment against others.
Either way, claiming that people "who are aware of racial injustice" direct hatred, resentment, and prejudice against others because of their race, age or gender is so blatantly contradictory that it is absurd.
>Either way, claiming that people "who are aware of racial injustice" direct hatred, resentment, and prejudice against others because of their race, age or gender is so blatantly contradictory that it is absurd.
I don't think this is contradictory at all. Victims of abuse and Injustice are certainly capable of victimizing others and carrying out injustices of Their Own.
The idea that a victim of racism, for example, can't also harbor racist prejudices themselves is laughable. History and the contemporary world are full of examples of people who are simultaneously victims and abusers.
I can be aware and angry that someone hates me for my identity while simultaneously hating someone else for theirs. This does not negate my awareness of their identity.
Do you think that being 'woke' (aware of racial injustice and inequality) means that a person is incapable of holding hate and biases of their own?
>I can be aware and angry that someone hates me for my identity while simultaneously hating someone else for theirs. This does not negate my awareness of their identity
This statement is correct because you would intimate and factual knowledge concerning the matter.
>One woman started accosting him about entitlement, white privilege, male privilege, and refused to move. The scene went on for a while until he was able to reposition the car and barely drive by her brushing her with the car.
To then further say that woman or those people are woke is not, because you do not have any intimate or factual knowledge of them to make the claim.
It's like saying that you saw man in a firefighter jacket intentionally set fire to a building and run away and then said "That firefighter burned a building down." In reality, you only observed a man commit arson but had no idea of whether he was actually a firefighter despite what his clothing might have suggested.
In the instance where the two things are contradictory, and you have one unknown, the assessment must be based on the known (they were assholes). You cannot claim both.
What could possibly be stronger evidence of awareness then them verbally demonstrating it? Am I to think that the person shouting about someone having white male privilege verbatim is not aware that the concept of white male privilege exists?
It is like saying that "a person who knows how to make fire burned a building down". The evidence is in the observation.
>In the instance where the two things are contradictory, and you have one unknown, the assessment must be based on the known (they were assholes). You cannot claim both.
Why would there be any contradiction? Being woke has no bearing on being an asshole or not.
The fact that they screamed what they did at him shows they do not understand the concept, as what he was doing was not an expression or instance of white male privilege.
Is this really the case on any college campus for any faculty member? It seems like this hasn't been true regardless of tenure for a few decades now - there are a lot of things that you don't dare speak, no matter who you are.
But some of what we are seeing today isn’t that, and I think using the term fundamentalism to describe it, which, I suspect deliberately, draws a parallel between the efforts to force everyone to adopt these moral views with the attempts by religious fundamentalists to force everyone to adopt their views, makes a lot of sense.
I don't see that "social justice fundamentalists" would have any such requirement imposed by their core principle. I'm pretty sure their core principle would be one of or some set of the things we already acknowledge, that we claim our society values: equality, personal freedom absent harm to others, justice yes. The difference isn't what they believe or even maybe how strongly. It's that they're calling our bluff on what we believe.
These things are more social norms than moral necessities: you don't need to believe everyone is equal but you need to act as if you do. A liberal would say the right way to fight bigotry is to convert the bigots, a social justice-oriented leftist would say it's to limit the impact of their bigotry. I think history is in their favor too. If we had waited until every racist was on board before ending segregation we'd still have segregation.
I don't like the way many people use the term "fundamentalism". It started out to describe an early 20th century movement in American Protestantism. And indeed, they were all about following scripture–or at least what they claimed it was saying, since other Christians have always disagreed with their interpretations of it. And I don't have a problem with calling them "Fundamentalists", since that is their own term they chose to describe themselves. Nor do I have a problem using the term to describe (ultra-)conservative Protestants who consciously continue the same approach today, and look back on the early 20th century Fundamentalists in admiration.
The problem is when the term "fundamentalism" gets extended to (ultra-)conservative factions within other religions such as Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, etc. None of those belief systems shares the Protestant belief in "Scripture Alone" (sola scriptura). All three believe in the binding nature of extra-scriptural/post-scriptural traditions. So while "the core they follow, scripture" is an accurate description of the basis of the original Protestant fundamentalism, it ends up misrepresenting "fundamentalism" in other religions, and distorting them through a Protestant-coloured lens. Which is why a lot of scholars of religion object to using the term "fundamentalist", and instead advocate using customised terminology for each religious tradition. Hence people speak of "Islamism" or "jihadist Salafism" or "Khomeinism" rather than "Islamic fundamentalism", for example. Instead of "Catholic fundamentalism", people speak of "Feeneyism" or "radical traditionalism" or "integralism" or so on. Instead of "Jewish fundamentalism", we have terms like "Kahanism". Instead of "Hindu fundamentalism", "Hindutva".
And I know by trying to talk about a "core principle", maybe you are acknowledging that for "non-Protestant fundamentalism", the core might not be "scripture". But, just because Protestant Fundamentalists might be said to have a single core principle, doesn't mean every other religion does. Sometimes there is no single core principle, just an assortment of views. People use "fundamentalism" to describe religious views which have a rather hostile attitude towards what we might call "modern scientific liberalism", and whether you have a single core principle or an amorphous blur of many principles is irrelevant to whether you have such a hostile attitude or not
When I hear fundamentalism I think less about the proseltyzing aspect and more about the divergence from the core ideology. Fundamentalist is probably a misnomer, maybe "radical" or "sectarian".
For example, someone sufficiently "woke" would understand that the slave and sharecropping economy of the rural south impacted the majority of whites negatively and that racism was a tool used to prevent them from developing class consciousness.
With this knowledge, any discussion about anti-racism w/ respect to the US south needs to also be explicitly anti-capitalist to help the "poor white trash" understand that their economic anxiety is being redirected unproductively. These people do benefit from white privilege in some ways, but solidarity should be the primary message here as there is a spectrum of victimization going on.
A concrete example of how you could respond to someone saying "immigrants are taking our jobs" is to reframe it (correctly) that US immigration laws are being taken advantage of by employers. The immigrants and workers have no leverage in the system and the decision-makers are the capital owners. It is not productive to call this person a bigot and leave it at that (even if it is true).
People who want to fit into the cultural zeitgeist but without the fundamental understanding of the system they criticize will just use these people as a punching bag, which doesn't help anyone. These types of people are easily co-opted into positions of power that don't fundamentally challenge the system. The head of a DEI initiative at a college does not challenge the existence of legacy admissions or donations from war profiteers and oil companies. They are smart enough not to bite the hand that feeds them.
There's also a purity aspect to it. When there's no solid basis for the ideology you can just start measuring people against their purity level. "No true scotsman" and all that.
Please do some reading on the subject. Cursory reading on the history of labor unions, immigration in America, or literally any book on the US south that isn't Lost Cause mythology will tell you resoundingly yes.
I am not even talking about Marxist authors or Howard Zinn. You can easily find primary sources, the people who historically weaponized racism, telling you exactly how and to what end they are weaponizing their racism.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwa...
Secondly, capitalism is great at co-opting all sorts of messaging. Since you are on HN I assume you are familiar with the concept of a Paperclip Maximizer. The "machine" in this sense does not love you or hate you. You are a customer and they will adopt the aesthetics of your ideology to sell to you, inherent contradictions be damned.
Every oil company that spent the last 50 years denying climate change now pours their money into showcasing their green energy products. Companies who benefit from convict labor of African Americans adopt BLM banners on their websites. Companies who donate to the political campaigns of every republican in both houses of legislature change their logos to pride flags in June.
I dont want to assume but your phrasing makes me think (unless I am misreading it) that you think blm and "wokeness" are elite belief systems manufactured by "the machine", and that more reactionary "working class" ideology (a la Tucker Carlson) is grassroots. I really implore you to consider the Paperclip Maximizer idea and realize that the ideologies you are presented with on TV and print are the ones that have been passed through a corporate filter and sanitized to pose no threat to the machine. What you are seeing is a facsimile of what was once probably a more nuanced belief system.
When was the last time you heard Georgism or Anarcho-syndicalism or de-growth discussed by any talking heads? The answer is never because these concepts are inherently antithetical to capitalism and cannot be co-opted.
I'm half debating introducing CHATGPT based education to my home schooling pod.
I really wonder if Universities will survive the "woke", the "reaction", and the "paradigm shift.