Hacker News Reader

Comment by taeric | Hacker News Reader

This is a dangerous line. As often, when people speak of not getting respect from others, they describe not getting subservience. Especially from kids. Especially, again, when it is authority speaking

View on HN

It’s ridiculous to equate asking kids to be cooperative in class to subservience. If education is slavery, what alternative do you propose? Do we just let them live in the streets and scrap to survive? How does that benefit them to grow up and enter a society they know nothing about?

I didn't say it is slavery. That is on you. Though, I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments.

My assertion is only to be careful with complaints on respect. All too often the folks that are complaining on it haven't done their part in giving it, either.

And I make no claims that this is a new or unique perspective. 30 years ago, I recall books and shows already touching it.

> I would not be shocked to see these complaints more in minority heavy environments.

This is almost surely factual. Why do you suppose that is?

No single reason. I do assert that respect is reciprocate, and all too often minorities are not respected.

Ehh. I don't want to be snarky, so let me politely ask you if you have any kids of your own or if you work with kids on a daily basis?

Yes. And yes. Good try, though.

In that case a more in-depth insight would be welcome.

I can't lay claim to easy insight here. My push is that thinking it is "lack of respect" is itself looking for an easy answer.

If I have anything close to insight, it is if you want respect from kids, start respecting the kids. And don't have rose colored glasses to how much respect we showed as kids. We seem to put this narrative forward that we followed rules way more closely as kids than we did. Which is unfortunate not the least because we had way fewer rules in many cases.

Can you provide proof of what you're saying? Respect does not equal authoritarianism. That's an extreme stance to take.

My experience growing up in the US south. I almost certainly counted as a respectful student. But I also saw what was around me. As a parent now, I have seen disrespectful kids, sure. Oddly, they are rarely "disrespectful" to me. Certainly no more so than my peers. Considerably less so than older folks, oddly.

I agree with you that often people conflate respect and subservience with respect to kids. However, aren’t both useful (and probably necessary?) in a classroom environment? I don’t see why it is dangerous to expect children to, within reason (i.e. on matters pertinent to their behavior and education), listen to their teachers. Both respect and subservience are lacking, based on what I have heard from my friends in education.

For instance, students cussing out teachers is a lack of respect, and has nothing to do with subservience. Students talking or distracting others while the teacher is educating also shows a lack of respect. Students bullying each other also shows a lack of respect. Again, none of these have anything to do with subservience and are reasonable behaviors to prohibit in a classroom.

On the other hand, there are many situations in education that require subservience of the student to the teacher. For instance, if the teacher asks or tells a student to stop talking during class, it is important that the student listen to them. If the teacher tells a student to complete their homework, an in-class assignment, or a test, it is again important that the student listen to the teacher. If the student does not listen, either their education or the education of their peers is hurt.

I’d be curious to hear more about what you are referring to when you say “this is a dangerous line”.

They can both be useful, maybe? And I'd go farther down one of your lines and say I'm way more worried when kids don't respect each other than I am when they don't show respect to older people. Oddly, this often plays out in many situations where the adults also don't respect each other in the same place.

Cussing is an odd one. Don't go out of your way for disrespectful language, sure. But also don't go out of your way to be offended by the way people say things. Is like my family getting upset when they see someone with blue hair. Just, why is that a concern and somehow disrespect from them?

Further complicating this, I grew up where we viewed Bill Cosby as the epitome of respect, and Eddie Murphy as not. And yet here we are, knowing what we know today. (I also cussed like a sailor, to the point that all of my friends would actually chide me on it, yet I was a very respectful person by all other measures.)

The assignments and such is even less stable. There is no evidence that doing homework helps. There is evidence that people that can easily do homework do well. Again, maybe. Often that is evidence that people with help do well. Those without help, do not. (And I don't mean "parents that did the homework." It could be as simple as "has a stable homelife.")

For the majority of these things, though, it is a tough environment for everyone involved. And all too often worrying about it at the scenes we are talking about do very little to help or improve situations. There are as many scenes where the kids don't show respect because they weren't given respect. It is reciprocal.

So, to specifically go about the what I mean makes it dangerous. It is years and years of seeing folks say things like "if only ___ would respect authority, they wouldn't be in this situation." It can feel very true. But it is often ignoring as much as it is looking at.

Thanks for the in depth response. I agree with you that often when kids do not respect each other, they’re in an environment where they are not respected or see others not respecting each other. Often this is from a bad home life, in my experience. There is little that the school system can do to help that. Though it is worth mentioning that all teachers and staff in a school should show exemplary behavior; it is not realistic to expect respect without showing it.

I should be more specific when I say cussing. I don’t care much about students swearing. I was like you in that I was “respectful” by most measures, but by the time I was a teenager, I was swearing every sentence. I thought it was cool. That’s mostly harmless, IMO. However, I feel for my sister who reports students calling her a “fucking bitch”, “cunt”, etc., when she is in class and asks them to, e.g., not use their phones. I’m not there to offer judgment on how respectful she is or is not to students, but I assume that is an unwarranted escalation on the part of the students.

As one sibling comment pointed out, and you pointed out, there are problems that can be solved that may lead to more respect shown by both students and teachers. Education has not kept up with changes in society, and I’m sure all parties involved feel that.

For instance, phones weren’t an issue in class when I was in school, because phones didn’t exist! If they did, they had 10 digits, a #, and a * button on them. Also, education practices have failed to produce results for students. I’m sure students feel disrespected that they are having their time wasted by teachers doing assignments that don’t benefit them.

Both of the above are problems that can be identified and solved without pointing out any blame. However, maybe that’s the reason they aren’t being solved; some people are more interested in pointing a finger than solving problems.

I suspect women have taken verbal abuse for a long time. Is a problem, but not new to current youth. Would love if they find a solution, though.

Hard to argue phones aren't changing things. I doubt they are as instrumental as often pushed. Remember when it was common for grade schoolers to smoke? Chewing tobacco was also huge.

My gut is things are more widely visible today. And even then, I'm not clear on what has changed.

Perhaps these are underlying reasons, but the fact is that >90% of kids want to behave. And that >90% of parents want their kids to behave. But teachers just aren't on the side of parents. Reactions of teachers to my kids were always somewhere between disappointing and infuriating.

Also, as a rule, teachers do not know their subject matter these days. Whilst I do remember their knowledge being less than perfect in the past, it was not like this. I understand teacher pay is a factor, but I refuse to believe these people have even the capability of educating kids.

Luckily good teaching materials are more accessible than ever as well, it's just ... all of them are outside of school.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com