The importance of sleep in a startup | Hacker News Reader

The importance of sleep in a startup

leostartsup.com

113 pointsLeonW32 comments

On a similar note, the importance of taking breaks where you're doing something TOTALLY different is incredibly crucial. By this, I do not mean playing a quick game of angry birds.

If you're coding, writing, doing research based tasks or basically anything where you're at a computer or in a book, the difference going for a walk makes is incredible. It's taken me about 4 years to accept that even the hardest problems sometimes fall into place during a shower, while walking to get a coffee or just through going somewhere physically different and talking through the problem to yourself - no pen, paper or screens allowed.

I don't get too much out of breaks every 45 minutes, and when things are going well am happy to work 2,3 even 10 hours straight, but if I've been stuck on something for more than 20 minutes 9 times out of 10 if I leave and come back I can solve it pretty much instantly. It's like a reset button to my mental state, and I'm always pleasantly surprised with the result.

this is definitely true.

My best epiphanies have come at the gym. i.e. physical activity, rather than from playing angry birds.

My favorite example of this is Archimedes. When someone touts the virtues of being at your desk without turning your head away from the monitor and lifting your hands off the keyboard I usually ask "where was Archimedes when he had his "Eureka!" moment?".

To be fair, the story actually shows me was doing something related to his study when he made his discovery. In a bathtub that was too full, he found that physical objects cause water displacement. He wasn't planning on making a breakthrough, but it didn't just come to him out of the blue.

Point still stands, though.

In order to squeeze every bit of productivity out of my day, I've experimented with several different sleeping patterns, including but not limited to polyphasic sleeping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep).

In my experiments, I've come to realize that nothing comes close to optimal sleeping patterns than letting your body decide for itself. Depending on the activities you engage in through out the day, the body may need fluctuating amounts of rest. I don't think that one needs a consistent amount every day. A lot depends on the activities you have been involved in as well as your mental and physical state. Sleeping too little however, which seems to be the goal of many polyphasic sleepers is great if you are mostly performing mundane activities. However, ample sleep is essential for doing any kind of creative work.

The human body is extremely good at picking how much rest it needs. If you can afford to, follow your body clock instead of an alarm clock and sleep when you feel tired. Over the years, I find that naturally we are bi-phasic sleepers, requiring a long rest at night and then a short nap in the afternoon.

So you believe it's best to wait until you're quite tired and then go to bed with no alarm?

It works well if you don't have artificial light.

And I mean none. No light bulbs, no TV, no LEDs on devices, no computer screen.

Also, cut caffeine out of your life. Reserve it for special circumstances. Because even a small amount of caffeine can linger for a long time, keeping you from falling asleep easily.

That's how I have slept for several years now. It is not a topic I have studied in any depth, but it seems reasonable to think that your body is able to regulate its sleep needs. According to my parents, I still maintain the same basic sleeping schedule that I had when I was a baby.

Yep. I think the body knows best and it's best not to interrupt your REM cycles with a blaring alarm clock. Of course, that can be tough to do if you have meetings to get to in the morning, but if you have a flexible schedule, I highly recommend it.

This is exactly what I've been doing for about three months now. I quit my 9-to-5 to work on a then side-project full-time. Being outside the structure of a corporate work-environment, I started doing this and it's been the most productive time of my life to date.

When I'm always fully rested and have 10-ish hour blocks of uninterrupted time to work, I get way more done. The only problem is my sleep cycle doesn't always line up with the celestial day. My guess is that's due to two things: 1) artificial light, and 2) I'm fairly sedentary while working and I don't workout, so I tire more slowly than I would if I was doing something more active. So, I've found I settle into 24-30 hour cycle, which results in some ridiculous sleep/wake times.

Thankfully, I have the freedom to do this and it works great for me. If you can swing it, I suggest trying it for a month or so.

I do the same, sleep when I'm tired and have the problem of sometimes having to match my sleep/day to being awake at specific times for one off things and sometimes that throws me off productivity. I have also found that I too in general do 24-30 hour days, I'd say the average is 18 hours awake and 10 hours asleep, although I've done as much as 34 awake and 16 asleep.

I've been doing this for over a year now and I think it's hugely beneficial for me, although within a month I'm moving to working from an office so I'll be trying standard 9 - 5 (I think, unless I'm allowed freedom!) so it will be interesting to compare. Personally I think structure is good for me, although the freedom is great I can find myself wasting 2 days without doing anything productive... definitely something everyone should try anyway

Cheers! I was asking honestly; I realized re-reading today it sounded hostile.

I have quite a bit of freedom at work, I might give this a go.

I'll just point out that artificial light screws with your sleep cycle. Light will depress melatonin production, LEDs are especially effective at this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/health/05light.html?pagewa...

I'd also recommend the program flux. It adjusts your monitor color and light based on time and location. It won't beat not having anything electronic on at night of course, but it will visibly sync your computer with the sun.

http://stereopsis.com/flux/

It's relatively well-documented that sleep deprivation has effects similar to those of alcohol intoxication, but coming in to work drunk is a firing offense, while working to the point of sleep deprivation is regarded as heroic. Of course, these aren't quite the same, but I still wish the idea that your dedication is measured by your level of self-destructive sleep habits weren't so prevalent in the tech industry.

Your comment is so true. I currently live in Japan and I see all the sleep deprived Japanese going about their jobs in the laboratory, sleeping in the desk or dozing off while trying to work.

I had a talk with them trying to ask them if they realize that better sleep would make them more productive and also improve their overall health but their belief seems to be as you say. They think it's heroic to stay up late working and as a consequence be a zombie next day.

And once you start this it's a vicious cycle that is pretty hard to stop. Nothing can increase productivity and mental stability like a good night's sleep.

Many people have difficulty going to sleep even though they are tired. There are many reasons for insomnia. When the mind is too active, we have a hard time going to sleep or even if we do go to sleep, we are restless and do not sleep deeply. There are many theories and opinions about how much sleep a person needs and it certainly varies according to state of health, activity and circumstances. But most of us would agree that the deeper and more peaceful the sleep, the more rested we feel the next morning. http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/kyt16.html

Very interesting connection between Parkinson's Law and one's energy levels. Based on my own experience, I'd have to agree. I dislike having to come into the office after 5-6 hours of sleep just to show my face, spending the rest of the day working at a snail pace while phasing out every 10 minutes.

I wish our work culture would allow us to come in late when we had something prevent us from getting adequate sleep.

Leo's very good at publishing stuff that HN likes.

I think your attitude to sleep changes as you age. When I was a teenager, all-nighters were tiring but after a night's sleep I'd be back to normal.

These days, it takes me a week to recover from an all-nighter.

The thing that really got me thinking about sleep as a precious resource was being diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnoea. I was getting to the point where I was sleeping for 14 hours and waking up exhausted.

The year I got a CPAP machine, my grade average jumped from credit to distinction.

Hey Jacques, thanks for the kind shout, yes, really glad others often have similar thoughts to me.

That's very interesting and I think you are right, it changes as we get older and we need to adjust. What I am most interested though is to find a pattern that works no matter what age and I felt this 8 hours/night + half an hour comes pretty close.

Wow, that is quite an example there of what can happen and a great reminder to look after it, thanks for the heads up!

I often wonder about sleep apnea, I need a lot of sleep and have limited energy, nothing drastic but still noticeable compared to others. But I tend to think I don't have it, since in the morning I usually remember having long dreams - and sleep apnea is supposed to interrupt your sleep frequently. Were you able to observe new patterns in your sleep once you started using a CPAP machine?

I'm not an expert, but I understand reduced dream recall is correlated with sleep apnea, but being able to recall dreams is definitely not a strong enough sign to rule out sleep apnea: see this study (http://www.sleepfoundation.org/alert/sleep-apnea-and-dream-r...)

Firstly, if you have any suspicion of having sleep apnea, I highly recommend getting a sleep study[0] done. I was diagnosed with a moderate case of obstructive sleep apnea after suffering from it for several years. I feel fortunate to have discovered and treated it at a fairly young age since it results general misery and is believed to cause heart attacks and strokes if left untreated.

I found no noticeable difference in my ability to recall dreams from the night before, or the length of dreams I experienced between using CPAP or not.

With regard to sleep patterns, the results from CPAP were immediately noticeable. I found that CPAP allowed me to go from a zombie that needed 12 or more hours of sleep per night to one that only needed about 4. This was not better. Despite really enjoying the extra 8 hours of "waking" time I had each day I was still tired all the time and thus made little use of the extra hours. I now sleep between 7 and 8 hours per night, I feel great and I am way more productive.

[0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysomnography

For a lot of people, myself included, OSA causes almost continuous dreaming.

If you've ever had vivid dreams for 10 minutes after mashing a snooze button in the morning, you'll know this is possible. The phenomenon in OSA is similar (very brief awakening).

I'd dream almost night. It was exhausting. Worse, I apparently run out of things to dream about and my dreams become boring.

One of the best ways to determine if you might have apnea is to ask your sleeping partner. If they complain about you moving around a lot, or making lots of "grunting" noises or noises that sound like you are choking, then you are a good candidate.

If you don't have a sleeping partner, use a video camera and record yourself sleeping one night.

I've been thinking the same thing over the last few years. Going to bed at 1AM every day used to be no big deal, but that's not the case now that I'm closer to 40 than 30. To combat this, I'm working on new routines - sleep by 11-12PM, alternating going to the gym and cycling to work daily and eating better (I have a serious sweet tooth). It's too early to see any results yet, but I believe it's going to make a major difference in the quality of life & work.

As another point of reference about sleep apnea, my mom got a CPAP machine in last couple years and reports amazing changes from using it. The sleep studies were a pain, but well worth the effort.

Sleep apnoea is bad. Please check that if your girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that you have breathing stops when you sleep.

I had sleep apnea, too. It went away with band aids over the nose and weight loss. (I got the weight and some other problems because I was tired from an undiagnosed allergy. Check that too, if you get really tired all the time... [Disclaimer: I have no idea how unusual food allergies like mine are, i.e. without throat/nose problems.])

I don't believe some people are willing to sacrifice sleep for a long periods of time in order to "do startups". The sad thing is that we even have to discuss if it is bad or not?

Researchers that studied sleep for decades are now coming up with different suggestions than what Leo suggests. When people don't get enough sleep, they will die early. When people get too much sleep, they'll also die early. Recent studies show that probably 7 hours should be the maximum.

Wouldn't it be great if there was a branch of science that looked at how different people respond to sleep over time rather than some guy making personal assertions with anecdotal evidence?

I've lost the reference, but I understand that performing musicians find they need more sleep than than most people, with 9-10 hours a night being entirely normal.

This suggests that sleep has less to do with recovery from physical exertion, and more to do with the ability to sustain intense mental focus for extended periods - especially when that focus is being used to create and perfect something that demands comprehension of a complex whole.

Understand, too, that the work schedule of musicians are different from most. Shifting the working day into the evening and after dark, plus ubiquitous artificial light probably alter sleep habits just as much as the nature of the work.

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