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Comment by Anon84 | Hacker News Reader

    There is something about the cultural dimension of social
    problems that eludes us. When confronted with the rowdy
    youth in the bar, we are happy to raise his drinking age,
    to tax his beer, to punish him if he drives under the 
    influence, and to push him into treatment if his habit 
    becomes an addiction. But we are reluctant to provide him
    with a positive and constructive example of how to drink.
    The consequences of that failure are considerable, 
    because, in the end, culture is a more powerful tool in 
    dealing with drinking than medicine, economics, or the 
    law.

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I wonder how such cultural messages could be introduced, if they do not exist presently.

It doesn't seem like something that the government can do anything about, so it makes sense that the govt reaches for new laws and restrictions to address the problem (if unfortunate and ineffectual).

Very interesting read, thanks!

Look at other countries. In Europe for example, many families drink wine with their meals. I knew the taste of wine and beer as young as 10 probably. My parents would have wine and beer with their meals and it never turned into a drunken debauchery as many American expect it to. I could tell they got drunker because they talked louder for example. I never got really drunk that young and never really wanted to binge drink later.

I got drunk on occasion with friends (and regretted it) but it most often happened with American friends (who were more likely to binge drink I think). So this bad attitude towards alcohol has somewhat rubbed off on me as well after many years of living here.

Well, the anti-drinking populace are telling him not to drink. And it's good advice, considering that if he's rowdy he has probably exceeded the government recommended maximum consumption level. He can never satisfy everybody anyway, so what is the problem here? I don't think the youth have problems with people not liking them drinking.

If I understood this article as I think I did, your line of reasoning is exactly what the author highlights as the center of a cultural misunderstandings regarding the effects of alcohol. The kid's rowdiness isn't so much a consequence of his drinking than it is a social conditioning that taught him it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood. Under different circumstances (in another culture), he would drink exactly the same, but would act completely differently.

I think the main point he's trying to convey is that, rather than focusing on attacking alcohol on all fronts, some effort could be put forth in culturally redefining our belief of what people are supposed to act like when they drink (see the passage on first generation Italian immigrants).

"it's ok to be rowdy when you're drunk, it's expected and it's understood"

And here you've nailed the point that the OP of the first alcohol related post on HN completely missed. His repeated assertion of "drinking to get buzzed/drunk" was what riled everyone up so much - people I drink with are perfectly capable of drinking 5-6 pints of 5% beer without losing their ability to talk sensibly and act sensibly. (That's completely aside from the health considerations of regular consumption).

We don't drink specifically to get "buzzed/drunk". That's just a small bonus. Beer in the UK is worth drinking for its own sake! (The beer here in Australia, less so).

    We don't drink specifically to get "buzzed/drunk". 
    That's just a small bonus. Beer in the UK is worth
    drinking for its own sake!

That's funny of you to say, as Britons (at least in continental europe) are renown for being violent drunks (i.e. violent when drunk, not that they are all drunk & violent).

I've never actually seen any rowdy drunks in the many pubs I visited in the UK, despite the many people there drinking heavily. But then again, I never went to the rowdy pubs.

I remember being told not to wander around downtown Nottingham around 11pm (when the pubs let out) after football matches because of that rowdiness. I also think it points to the cultural nature because I never had that concern in the other parts of the UK I've visited (I spent about six months over 2.5 years in the UK, well over half of that in Nottingham).

1. Stereotypes are not always grounded in reality.

2. I suspect in this case they are probably based on british tourists in Prague/Berlin/Vienna/Budapest getting wasted out of their minds rather than britons drinking at home.

As a Briton, I can confirm that there definitely is a significant portion of Britons that do tend to binge drink to the point of becoming violent. However, whilst significant, it's still a small portion - most Britons do not, and generally if you go into a pub, even late on a Friday or Saturday, it's full of drunk but friendly and good-natured people just relaxing and enjoying themselves.

I think, in my experience, what I've seen definitely seems to support the cultural argument. One point my friends have raised is that at Football (Soccer) matches, alcohol is generally banned because of how rowdy people get, whilst at Rugby matches beer is freely served and yet it remains good-natured.

> and generally if you go into a pub,

Very much depends on the pub though. VDEs (Vertical Drinking Establishments) rely on giving the customer little else to do but drink. They don't have seating or tables, which reduces the relaxed drinking that a group would have around a table; and they play loud music which reduces talking time.

That environment sounds like hell to me, but they're very popular.

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