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Comment by jpeter | Hacker News Reader

Their EU pricing is just insane

Just looked at it, and it certainly is. I mean Apple was always more expensive, but the difference is just huge now.

For me 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD is kind of the minimum (I would buy 32GB RAM if I can get it for a fair price). I can get that for less than 1000 EUR as a Windows/Linux notebook with reasonably good quality. For Apple it seems to start at 2300 EUR with these specs, and that is for relatively small screen sizes which doesn't match my preference. Of course there are many more differences here, but this seems to be kind of the price floor for reasonable specs.

> I can get that for less than 1000 EUR

Please by all means provide a link.

Often when you see these sort of comparisons it's low spec screens, memory + SSDs.

Yes, I have no idea why people are comparing apple's excellent hardware to gaming laptops with wobbly hinges and inefficient CPUs that are intended for different purpose altogether.

All tech in Europe is costlier. Check Dell 2023 XPS lineup and compare to macbooks - it won't get come out cheaper.

Hmm, my gaming oriented laptop (not what I use it for) does not have wobbly hinges at all, and I find the aluminum on the macs far more susceptible to dings and crap than the hardshell of the PC laptop.

Here's one under 1000e: https://www.coolblue.nl/en/product/917297/asus-zenbook-14-um...

If you spend 1250e you can get oled screens which are nicer then apple

https://www.coolblue.nl/en/product/904043/asus-zenbook-14-um...

> 1080p screen

Not the same. 1080 would be unbearable compared to a MacBook pro screen at 14” (3024x1964).

Edit: the oled one has acceptable resolution. I don’t see any specs on the ssd though so it may be SATA junk. The problem with other manufacturers is that they aggressively skimp in all the places people don’t look. Part of what you get for the Apple tax is some assurance that’s not happening.

Apple is close to double the price though for an arguably worse display compared to the oled one.

So OP is right in that options are present that are cheaper and perhaps better for his use case.

edit: oled laptop comes comes with PM9A1 ssd which has 7GB reads, 5GB writes which is faster then Apple too (apple has 5GB reads, 4GB writes).

I can switch out the SSD easily on regular notebooks, and in most notebooks I bought I did that as it was easier to match the specs to what I want that way. I cannot do that on a MacBook, so the huge cost for larger RAM and SSD is a big disadvantage.

And we're not talking about a bit of money here, Macbooks with reasonable specs start at around double the cost of a better mainstream PC notebook.

> Part of what you get for the Apple tax is some assurance that’s not happening.

Oh boy. I suppose selling a "PC" (iMac, Mac Mini, etc) at desktop prices with laptop internals isn't skimping.

Meanwhile I built a PC for 1/4 of what it would cost me to build an equivalent Mac Pro a few years ago. It still stands up to the M2 chip today. I'll probably be rocking this one for another 5 years.

> I don’t see any specs on the ssd though so it may be SATA junk.

PC OEMs stopped using SATA SSDs years ago. Entry-level NVMe SSDs are both cheaper and faster than SATA SSDs built around the same quantity and type of flash.

Same issue I mentioned above. Significantly worse CPU:

Apple M2: https://browser.geekbench.com/search?k=v6_cpu&q=5900HX+&utf8...

Ryzen 9500HX: https://browser.geekbench.com/search?k=v6_cpu&q=m2&utf8=

https://geizhals.de/lenovo-ideapad-5-pro-16ach6-storm-grey-8...

That's the one I have, or at least similar. It's obviously not the same as a MacBook, but the screen is a 16:10 high-resolution, though not Retina one with good quality.

People care about different things, and Full HD screens at ~14-15" is perfectly fine for many people. And you can get that for even cheaper than what I mentioned.

Pretty substantial difference in CPU performance.

MacBook Pro 14: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/21032882

AMD Ryzen 7: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/21032882

Fwiw both your links are the same.

Battery life is a huge advantage of the current MacBook hardware, unparalleled in the non-Apple laptop land.

Yeah, a starting price of 1500 Euros for a base M2 13 inch with 8GB of RAM and 256GB SSD is insane.

I had an Acer with 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD since 2016 for something like 850-900 Euros back then and it wasn't some high-end gaming machine. Of course this Apple machine is much better than mine, but the comparison is to highlight what insane markups Apple is charging today on SSD and RAM configs that are years out of date. No wonder their profits are so good.

Also, considering how poorly the base single channel 256GB SSD performs on the M2 machines, I wouldn't be surprised if my 7 year old Samsung 850 EVO SATA SSD would actually beat it.

Indeed, their pricing is way off, the low end models are too pricy for most non tech users.

When you start getting up to the models with 16gb ram/512gb disks, which I consider an absolute minimum, their price is jut too insane for many tech users.

I've always joked that if you want a maxed-out model, it's cheaper to fly to the States, buy there, and fly back than to buy in Europe (especially in Sweden where I am right now)

That's almost entirely Sweden having a high tax rate though.

I just priced out an M2 MBA with ram & ssd maxed out. $2499 USD in the US and 33009kr in Sweden. $2499 is 26163kr, +25% VAT is 32705kr. So you're paying 304kr / $29 more than the US price.

There's a sales tax in the US too. 7.25% in CA, on top of the product price.

Protip: Delaware has no sales tax.

Oregon too!

Oregon as well.

Many states have no sales tax.

There are only 5, Alaska, New Hampshire, Montana, Delaware, and Oregon. And the only one with a decent size city and airport is Oregon, but even then, it does not have significant international flights (though close enough to San Francisco and Seattle airports).

I guess New Hampshire has an Apple Store 45min from Boston airport, and Delaware has one about the same time from Philadelphia airport.

Of course. But when people are comparing EU & US prices they're usually not accounting for that either - just the price on the site. And it's too easy to miss out that a) european prices are advertised inclusive of sales tax, and b) we lean towards much higher taxes.

So just going "what's that in dollars" either ignores the real discrepancy, or at the very least, misplaces the blame.

Also, fun fact - since I did that math 3 hours ago, SEK has changed enough to wipe out that $29. Right now, (33009 * 0.8) SEK in USD = US$2460.46, making the pre-tax price in Sweden cheaper than the pre-tax price in the US.

Chicago has 10.25% but if you’re flying to the US to buy a laptop you’re gonna go to a non-sales tax state e.g. OR, MT, DE, etc

That is if you don’t get caught at customs… you’ll have to pay at least the VAT on the value of your purchase and possible a duty as well.

So if you want to do it legally you’ll have to add 20-25% to the price which no longer makes it very appealing.

> That is if you don’t get caught at customs

Do you still have to pay if the Mac is out of the box and you have used it?

When I lived in Switzerland, some clever people thought about that, as it used to have lower taxes for electronics.

It so happens that there are databases used by the customs agents that can trace back serial numbers to countries and purchase locations.

So trying to make up a story on a random control can turn out pretty bad.

Each country has a database that tracks import fee payment history by OEM serial number of laptops and other electronic devices, based on shipments to other countries?

I don't know how it actually works, rather an Interpol kind of database where products serial numbers are tracked in some way.

Being caught on lies where we actually bought our phones or cameras, while being controlled on the French/Swiss border wasn't that out of the ordinary.

Was that necessary on every border crossing, e.g. showing copies of import fee payment receipts for each device? Sounds like a lot of overhead.

A matter of luck when talking to the customs agents.

Most of the time not at all, and then you get that one that wants to show off or had a bad day.

According to the the law yes.

Just take it out of the box and put it in your carryon, making it your 'work laptop' right? How would you risk being caught at customs?

How to get past customs isn’t the problem, however it’s still tax evasion.

You can also buy a house much quicker in Europe if you find a way not to pay 50% of your income in tax… oh and that Porsche now looks quite affordable too..

> however it’s still tax evasion

Not it's not. What are you even talking about? Buying goods for personal consumption/usage and bringing them into is perfectly legal..

Personal imports are also subject to paying import duty if value exceeds the allowance limits (which depend on means of travel).

Not without paying the duty and VAT above the exemption limit it doesn’t matter if the goods are for personal use or not.

The probability of getting caught is low. Unless you're bringing back several boxes.

Unpack, put it in your backpack, boom it's your personal item.

Again this isn’t about the probability it’s about the legality, saying that things are cheaper when you avoid tax is like saying water is wet.

> The probability of getting caught is low

Why would it be illegal if you just bought a single laptop for personal usage?

Because you are avoiding tax, if you get caught you’ll pay the duty and a fine.

Because you need to pay VAT on imports into the country above a certain value (which is much less than the cost of a Macbook).

Same in India. So much so that they are now being smuggled into India[1], there's a hefty profit to be made.

[1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/07/09/iphones-worth-134...

https://www.republicworld.com/india-news/general-news/in-mum...

I've avoided M series for this reason, and the more proprietary/locked down design... but also it seems like all we do with these upgrades is encourage more software bloat, especially on the browser side.

Environmentally I also dont like the push for minor increments every year across their range of products, and then forced 'obsolete' rating for perfectly working devices. I have a box full already thanks. I hope to use my current machine until it physically breaks, and then switch to open-hardware.

The "obsolete" designation is only for models that are several years old and it just means that they will no longer get software updates. You are free to keep using them as long as you like.

No one is expecting you to buy a new laptop every year, even if Apple does updates each year. Other people are buying new machines on their own timelines that do not synchronize with you. They are able to get the latest machine available when they are ready to buy.

Cars are updated every year but you don't feel the same pressure to update, do you?

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