Effects of Licorice on the Cardiovascular System (2019) | Hacker News Reader

Effects of Licorice on the Cardiovascular System (2019)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

75 pointselsewhen59 comments

This speaks to one of my pet peeves, that lots of brands of herbal teas (e.g. Traditional Medicinals, Yogi Tea) put licorice in most of their tea blends. They do this because it tastes great, makes the tea taste naturally sweet and warming + counters the bitter flavor of the other herbs in the blend without actually adding sugar. Unfortunately that's not ideal when you're drinking several cups of Throat Coat tea cause of a sore throat, or their stress reducer/sleepytime teas before bed because it raises cortisol and BP.

Some folks go off the deep end and try to self-medicate everything with herbs, not realizing that they can have adverse effects as severe and long-lasting as any pharmaceutical, or that in many (most?) cases pharmaceuticals are safer. Other folks discount them completely, and assume they have zero physiological effects whatsoever, as though cannabis and coffee don't exist, which I think is also mistaken. Nothing boils my blood more though than amateur herbalists reading an intro book or a few wiki articles or watching a few videos on TikTok and thinking they're qualified to tell people to take shit like gotu kola or ginko biloba for memory, nevermind that these things probably don't help much with that, and worse can thin the blood and lower blood pressure to dangerous levels.

Anyway, I think brands of tea like TM and Yogi contribute to this (admittedly in a small way) with their irresponsible formulations

Thx for reading my rant

I drink one cup of zoethout tea [1] every day with lunch, as I enjoy the taste. That's 2 grams of tea, 82% of which is zoethout wortel (liquorice root). Should I worry about any bad long term effects, or would that be considered a safe consumption level?

[1] https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi106666/ah-kruiden-zoet...

You can always bring it up to your doctor, but if your panels are normal and your BP is stable, there's likely no issue.

It's a good idea to regularly monitor your blood pressure, regardless, since it's a good indicator of impending and active health conditions. I've got to monitor both potassium and BP, so I'd notice a change in trend before my yearly physical.

> and assume they have zero physiological effects whatsoever, as though cannabis and coffee don't exist, which I think is also mistaken.

Sidenote on your rant, i imagine i generally agree with you but it feels unfair to compare Cannabis or Coffee to other, very likely mild, herbal remedies. I doubt most of the people you nitpick in that section would debate any herbal remedies that have as immediate and observable affects as that of Coffee or Cannabis.

Eg, i don't discount that herbal can be immensely helpful - but it's not something i tend to reach for because i cannot easily make sense between what is a scam and what is real. I don't have this issue with coffee in the slightest because the effect is nearly impossible to miss.

Combine that with a healthy dose of confirmation bias that we all have and frankly i have no clue how to tell which herbal remedies are actually helpful and which aren't - from my observations at least. I can only read studies or w/e and make an effort to consume X thing under Y condition.

Comfrey is a herbal medicine with a strong effect. It's a pain relief drug and used to be the go-to medicine for bone fractures. Unfortunately it's also toxic to the liver.

There are salves based on comfrey where they remove the toxic parts, and I've used them myself. I was sceptical at first that a herbal based remedy would do anything, but for lack of a better option I tried it, and it actually worked.

>I don't have this issue with coffee in the slightest because the effect is nearly impossible to miss.

The problem is not missing the effect, it's missing (long term) side effects. And even large scale pharmaceutical studies miss them (you could debate if it's intentional in some cases) so it's really hard.

Yes! I got ill several times from drinking these licorice concoctions. The worst herb imho is Saint Johns Wort. Stay away from it.

Has anyone found a tea that is suitable for drinking (say) 1L per day of?

St Johns Wort contains an MAOI. I don't think this herb should be taken without understanding that, and what an MAOI is, and what MAOIs interact with (SSRIs, and badly. Personal experience with that. Can be a hospital job, with death as a possible outcome though I believe that's rare). FYI

It can also cause cataracts (https://news.fordham.edu/science/st-johns-wort-and-sun-dont-...)

In South America it’s common to drink that much Yerba Mate.

Not sure if it’s healthy though!

Edit: and the very next thread talks about the esophageal cancer risk of that!

I guess in everything, the dose makes the poison.

Hot water with a slice of lemon is probably safe!

The risks of mate are generally attributed to the style of drinking it rather than the mate itself.

Anything with caffeine is probably ideally consumed moderately though.

> Hot water with a slice of lemon is probably safe!

Hot drinks in general are not safe as far as I know, sorry ;)

> Hot water with a slice of lemon is probably safe!

This can cause dental erosion ...

> Has anyone found a tea that is suitable for drinking (say) 1L per day of?

How about actual tea from the tea plant (camellia sinensis)? Try green, white or yellow tea.

Green teas are really quite safe and pretty low in caffeine, but even black tea with Bergamot is apparently pretty safe until you are drinking 4L a day.

Decaffeinated green tea or rooibos tea are pretty harmless.

Hōjicha is pretty good.

If you can’t poison yourself with it, it’s flavor not medicine. In other words if there’s no such thing as an overdose there’s also no effective dose.

It's not just licorice that can have adverse health effects -- Yerba Mate contains PAHs which have been linked to some cancers:

https://aacrjournals.org/cebp/article/17/5/1262/163501/High-...

Or if you want the tabloid version:

https://nypost.com/2022/02/25/drinking-yerba-mate-tea-as-dan...

Wow:

> Esophageal squamous cell carcinoma (ESCC) is a common cause of cancer death in some parts of South America, including southern Brazil, northeastern Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay (1). Drinking mate, an aqueous infusion of the herb Ilex paraguariensis (also known as yerba mate or erva mate), is considered a main risk factor for ESCC in these areas of South America (2). Daily consumption of large volumes of mate is common in these areas (3), and an association between mate drinking and ESCC has been found in most epidemiologic studies (2, 4-10).

IANAD but I lived in Southern Brazil for two years and want to add that mate is traditionally drunk with basically boiling water added to the cuya.

Edit: I see now in the study they measured equivalent levels of carcinogens (PAHs) in cold infusions of the drink

Edit 2: the linked study does not tie PAH consumption to cancer rates, it only points out that temperature of water doesn’t affect the quantity of PAHs thus mate has lots of PAHs

“ Some studies (8, 10) have reported that only the temperature at which mate was drunk was associated with ESCC risk, and amount of mate was inconsequential. Other studies (2, 6), on the other hand, have reported that both high temperature and high volume of mate consumption were important and were independently associated with risk. Yet another study (7) reported that duration and amount of mate consumption were associated with cancer risk, but temperature was not.”

This paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3525749/

by the same authors attributes the high PAH content in yerba mate to the drying process, which involves exposing the leaves to smoke. The good news is that not all yerba mate brands use this method, and unsmoked brands have a much lower PAH content. I drink yerba mate, and have recently switched to an unsmoked brand (Kraus Gaucho) because of concern about PAHs.

The big gap in our understanding of nutrition IMO is that the vast majority of natural foods are "medicinal" in some way. Almost every spice has some measurable physiological effects.

Cinnamon, black pepper, capsaicin, tumeric, alliums - these all have effects that would make them popular as supplements even if they didn't taste good.

I believe the future of food is in making dishes that both taste good and account for the state of the bodies eating them, with each meal nudging bodies to work the way eaters wish.

Ex. Cinnamon in baked goods makes a lot of sense because cinnamon helps counteract the glycemic spike from a carb bomb.

It's hard to do because there's so much info to learn, but I think tools like chatGPT will help us tailor recipes for the preferences and physiological needs of each eater.

As a dane I can only say "From my cold dead hands". I remember going to Holland when I was younger and I ended up buying 3.5 kilos (7 pounds) of salty salmiak liquorice. Had a bit of an upset stomach for 10 days in a row until it was gone. But 10/10 would recommend.

Deglycyrrhizinated licorice (DGL) does not have the same cardiac effects, and has been used as a herbal remedy for ulcerative colitis and similar issues. It's available as a supplement - of course, not making any medical recommendations here and YMMV.

Not to discount your experience but

> Glycyrrhizin is known to cause negative side effects, such as hypertension and edema; removing the glycyrrhizin is meant to avoid these symptoms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deglycyrrhizinated_licorice

How are you in any way contradicting?

I think vector_spaces is saying that it would probably not do anything.

The most interesting part about glycyrrhizin outside of its toxicity is that it's delicious. It's got that bittersweet taste to it.

People have definitely died eating this shit.

Tyrkisk peber is my favorite

>Tyrkisk peber

Yikes. I live in Denmark and love that. Why is it not banned yet?

There would be riots in Iceland if it was banned. They put it in everything, even ice cream and cup cakes.

Because you have to be insane and eat like over a bag a day or something

Is that a Turkish invention? (Looking at the name)

Finnish

And the alcohol version Salmari was banned in Finland in 1993 as unhealthy - not directly because of the licorice but because it was both cheap and masked the taste of (strong, 38%) alcohol too well causing people to drink too much (alcohol).

I mean you just put some Tyrkisk Peber in a bottle of vodka and shake it up until it's all dissolved in

I really like Venco Topdrop. Part of the reason is that it fits in my pocket nicely.

How many healthy people have died from licorice? It seems like the stories revolve around people with preexisting conditions.

https://examine.com/supplements/licorice/

I've found this site's breakdowns of studies to be helpful

It's a great site, but I find myself using it less and less these days, as since fairly recently (6-12 months ago maybe?) they've started locking more and more behind a pay wall.

https://youtu.be/qg76qIZ4BQ8

Yes!! Chubby Emu is excellent.

Gonna have to disagree - every time I see his videos I roll my eyes. Feels less educational and more sensational. It's always so over dramatized and I think the way he presents makes it seem that he's a MD.

edit: Changed "doctor" to MD.

I'm glad he does it even though it annoys some. He found a formula that works and has been at it for some time and has informed and inspired a lot with his dramatizations. It is a bit goofy so it's good he only does one a month, otherwise the jokes would get old. His other channel is more serious and he's had some good interviews on there.

He has a second channel, Heme Review, that goes more in depth into the subjects of his videos. Less sensational. Here's the Licorice one: https://youtu.be/8lGmvFkAMOU

He has a second channel (Heme Review) that goes more in detail.

The whole point of the Chubbyemu ones is broad appeal.

He is a doctor!

He seems like a doctor, but he is a doctor too, as Mitch Hedberg would say

My understanding was that he has a PharmD, he doesn't have a doctor of medicine.

Yes, sorry, edited to indicate MD.

I wish some medical videos were paced and cut like this a little. A lot of time the lectures are a long string of ceremonious names, no idea, no logic, curves and stats and you can go home.

I've noticed that some teas, especially Ayurvedic, may or may not contain licorice under unspecified "spices".

It also affects testosterone, perhaps insignificantly in men, but it may be something to keep in mind: https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AONE&u=googlescholar&id=GALE|A....

My grandmother used to eat licorice every day, she had to quit after her doctor told her it was causing cardiovascular issues. It was hard for her to break the habit

I like to eat one bag of salty licorice every day if it’s available. Sometimes two. No idea how much actual licorice is in the bag though. So far it hasn’t been a problem for me.

A few years ago there was a news story about a guy from Boston who died from eating a bag of licorice every day.

Google: "Boston man dies licorice" for various news sources reporting on it.

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/too-much-candy-mass-man...

That article notes that he was eating the same amount of red licorice every day and switched to eating the same amount of black licorice. It seems like a switch like that would have an effect. imagine drinking 10 cups of decaf coffee and day and switching to caffeinated without expecting any impact.

It’s kind of telling he collapsed at a fast food restaurant. We really can’t tell that much based on limited details though.

Your blood pressure is likely a little higher than it would otherwise be. Whether this is a problem for you is a matter for you and your doctor.

This is of course fully anecdotal, but my grandfather has had some cardiovascular issues in the last couple of years, including higher blood pressure. He himself noticed that licorice affected it, and since stopping eating licorice candy he's had almost no issues. Awesome to see some research with supporting conclusions!

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