The best kimchi is made in earthenware pots | Hacker News Reader

The best kimchi is made in earthenware pots

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144 pointspcl79 comments

Growing up in Korea, I remember my grandmother making kimchi and then putting them in large earthenware pots and then digging large holes in the ground then putting them inside. In winter time, when it snows (that's how I remember it), she'll go out and grab some of this kimchi. The taste? I salivate now every time I think about it. To this day, I have not tasted kimchi as delicious as that - can't say it's objective. It's my nostalgia, childhood memories etc. But I'm so grateful for that taste memory.

Everyone has a different taste, but I do concur with you. Your grandma and my grandma kept to the traditional manual methods and that tastes best. The chilli peppers cultivated in Korea have a different sweeter taste IMO and the cheaper ones imported from China (while cheaper) do not hold up in terms of the sweetness and balanced spice. The earthenware pot also act as a refrigerant by being buried in the ground. Since the pot is placed below the frostline, kimchi is available through winter.

TIL: earthenware pots (ongi in Korean) is porous, which helps regulate amount of carbon dioxide released during fermentation process.

One thing the article neglects to mention is, importance of temperature for ongi to work effectively.

The lactic acid bacteria produced during kimchi fermentation is most active right around freezing temperature, so ongi needs to be buried underground in mid December.

why cant you just pop it in the fridge?

You can, and most people do put them in dedicated kimchi fridge that optimizes fermentation process (co2, bacteria, etc) and keeps it fresh longer once it's done fermenting.

I have no doubt that you can make superior kimchi in ongi, but only if you're an expert. Regular folks would get better and more consistent result sticking with 'ongi' powered by electricity ;-D

I thought the main reason why people use separate refridgerators for Kimchi is the smell.

And it definitely is. We manage to do tolerable kimchi, kimchi-flavoured everything was not so impressive.

Kimchi refrigerators tend to maintain a temperature just around or even slightly below freezing, which would be bad for regular fruits and vegetables. (Kimchi has a lower freezing point because of its salinity.) The temperature can be adjusted to produce the type of kimchi you like, optimized for fast fermentation or long-term storage, or even turned all the way down so you can use the whole machine as a giant freezer.

They're really versatile. The oversized compartments are perfect for storing a large amount of galbi, watermelons, beer, etc. especially since you can set different temperatures for each compartment. I don't know anyone who uses one exclusively for kimchi anymore.

Hah, my refrigerator is too cold in one area in the back and freezes vegetables if I leave them there too long. Might be perfect for kimchi!

The near freezing temperature should only be for preservation. Usually fermentation processes start around room temperature and then move progressively lower. Lactic acid bacteria thrives around 65F-72F, which is the supposed to be the ideal starting temperature range. After even a day or two at that temperature it has established itself and enough acidity to safely lower the temperature with minimal risk of other organisms outcompeting it. Below 41F lactic acid bacteria stop growing and are almost entirely inactive.

You're right, which is why kimchi refrigerators have a setting that keeps the temperature high for a few days (you can customize how high) and automatically switches to preservation mode afterward.

In the past, people made a huge amount of kimchi in the fall when cabbages are cheap, and expected it to last until the next year's first harvest of fresh vegetables. The near-freezing temperature ensures that the kimchi remains good for up to 6 months. Some kimchi can be aged for 3 years or more. So of course the preservation method is focused on stopping almost all microbial activity, including that of lactic acid bacteria. The goal is to maintain a sort of equilibrium for as long as possible. The onggi probably also helps with that.

Nowadays, many people in Korea buy pre-fermented kimchi instead of making their own. Several national brands and dozens of independent sellers with wildly different styles can all deliver kimchi to your door. In that case, you either set the fridge to preservation mode immediately, or keep it warm for another day or two if you prefer to ferment it a little more.

I went to my Korean friends place and thought there were ice cream in the fridge. I opened the fridge and boy did I regret it

It’s for both reasons. If you have a separate refrigerator you might as well optimize it for the stuff you’re trying to store. Think wine refrigerators in the West.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_refrigerator

You can, but you'd better use a kimchi fridge.¹

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_refrigerator

Hmm, do you know how near to freezing temperature it has to be? I'm really fond of fermentation and my understanding is that fermentation slows down and eventually stops at 3 celsius.

One other thing not mentioned is that with pores, the bacteria establishes itself in the material for future batches. At least that's my theory/experience. Same thing for wooden kraut barrels.

> The lactic acid bacteria produced during kimchi fermentation is most active right around freezing temperature,

The bacteria are definitely not more active near freezing compared to a warm room, ferments happen much quicker when it's warm.

The article starts with the statement: "For more than a thousand years, the spicy ...". I'm sure some kind of kimchi was made thousand years ago, but they definitively did not have chili back in the days. Chili must be a recent addition resulting in the kimchi we see today dating only a few hundred of years.

Gochugaru only became a common ingredient in kimchi in the 1700s (before that black pepper was used for the jang), but maybe more surprisingly napa cabbage only became common during the 1800s.

Do you have any more info on this black pepper version?

https://medium.com/@alexjanmaat2/a-short-history-of-a-tradit...

Found this

No, sorry, this was told to me by a Korean colleague years ago. IIRC he said it was mostly black pepper but sometimes something closer to Szechuan pepper, which Wikipedia tells me today is probably https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanthoxylum_piperitum. His claim about napa cabbage is easy to verify (and of course daikon and other vegetables are are still very common in kimchi, so it's easy to imagine kimchi without it) but I can't any more details about the supposed black pepper version.

I believe the 고추가루 was derived from a Portuguese chili plant which explains the timing. Why Japan didn’t go for more spiciness is not clear. Lots of Korean recipes seem to have parallels with Szechuan cooking methods and approaches (read: lots of bold, spicy flavors) but I’m not sure if it’s merely coincidence.

I read the Portuguese introduced chilli pepper in the 15th century, but Wikipedia says 16th century. There were other forms pickled vegetables like mool-kimchi but that doesn't have the spice component.

Heh, when I first moved to Seoul, I noticed those big pots (onggi/옹기) everywhere. You might see 2 or 3, or 20 in front of a house, building, etc. I asked my friend what was the deal, and she goes, "Oh, they're making kimchi." Blew my mind how ubiquitous it was.

Love me some real homemade kimchi, especially when it has that slight fizzy bite from a good ferment.

The first time I had fizzy kimchi it blew my mind. Why does this feel like it's carbonated? Well, simple: it's carbonated. Then, I noticed that the container was gently bubbling. As an outsider to the culture who just loves spicy and/or fermented goodies, it was almost alarming, but it tasted fresh and delicious and I quickly convinced myself that it's entirely plausible for CO2 to dissolve into the water in cabbage just as easy as water that isn't in cabbage; that this is just advanced fermentation technology beyond my ken. But now I want carbonated dill pickles.

But fear not, dear reader: this delicacy isn't only available in Korea. My city has a sizeable population of Korean diaspora, and local grocers sell excellent kimchi (as well as a selection of kimchi refrigerators).

You can also carbonate grapes.

Or malted barley -- the most popular fermented, carbonated drink in the world.

It’s also fairly easy to make your own. The wonderful thing about that is you can sample your kimchi periodically as it ferments to learn what stage of fermentation you enjoy most. As it gets really sour, it also becomes amazing as an ingredient or grilled on its own.

That’s right! Maangchi has a recipe and guide [0] which is really good. It’s how I learned, and the results are fantastic. Be warned though, she makes a lot of kimchi in one batch!

[0] https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/tongbaechu-kimchi

Can confirm: this is an excellent recipe. Highly recommended.

For whatever reason, we've had a lot more luck making kimchi than sauerkraut. The kraut keeps molding on us :-(

I understand that moldy kraut isn't bad -- pick off the moldy bits and you should be good. But despite that knowledge it still squicks me out.

Same, but with pickled and fermented fizzy tomatoes, a specialty in Georgia. So delicious.

Ooh that sounds peculiar, I must find some

> I quickly convinced myself that it's entirely plausible for CO2 to dissolve into the water in cabbage just as easy as water that isn't in cabbage; that this is just advanced fermentation technology beyond my ken. But now I want carbonated dill pickles.

Carbonating fruit is pretty common: apple, banana, strawberry, …

This is usually done externally, by popping bits of fruit and some dry ice (not much) in a strong airtight container. You could probably do that with western (vinegar) pickles.

I've never had carbonated dill pickles. You might get a little fizz from the juice on the outside, but I've never found the inside to be fizzing. Maybe it's possible with the right temperature, but I'm unsure. It takes longer for the brine to penetrate the cucumber, so you'd have to start it at 70F to get it started for a day or two, then refrigerate to about 45F for a week to let it penetrate, then raise it back to 70F for the rapid carbonation to take place. Maybe.

I remember the first time I ate great kimchi in New York. For years I thought nothing of cravings for it, which came seldom but intensely—after travelling, a lot of drinking, or an upset stomach. Now that I look at research on lactic acid bacteria [1] and their probiotic effects, it strikes me as less coïncidental.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_bacteria

I had no idea you could use a diaeresis with "coincidental", but lo and behold Google shows lots of people using this formulation.

What rule is this? That was harder to turn up.

It's the same reason that coöperate and reëducation and naïve should be written that way: it indicates the second vowel is pronounced separately.

Chickens live in coops, and much aquatic life lives among reeds and bullrushes; coop and reed are pronounced very differently than the words above.

English pronunciation is so irregular that using diaereses is pure snobbery.

It might indeed be snobbery, but your explanation that English pronunciation is so irregular doesn't lead to that. If anything the irregularity of English spelling and pronunciation ought to make it more populist to use symbols that help disambiguate the correct pronunciation, so that a struggling reader won't pronounce "cooperate" as "coup-erate."

New Yorker rule

What is the rule?

If they don’t walk fast enough it’s okay to push

There are so many rules in New York and even New Yorker is ambiguous. My guess is that it is the style guide, since most of New York's rules are an oral tradition.

Late to the party but I think they're referring to the style guide of the New Yorker magazine [0] which calls for diaeresis marks.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yorker#Style

If anybody wants to get into making fermented foods at home I 100% recommend _The Art Of Fermentation by Dr. Sandor Katz_. Be warned, it is thorough enough to be a text book.

Smaller sizes of this pottery are also used to produce fermented hot pepper paste (Gochujang , 고추장). I remember rows and rows of onggi is a corner of my grandparent's farm. It definitely tinged the air with a unique scent.

I just want to chime in to say I find Gochujang is amazingly and incredibly delicious.

I’ve made a dozen or so batches of kimchi, none of them spectacular; and I’d like to blame it on the vessel, though it’s probably my lack of skill.

Besides an ongi, you really need fresh minari (water dropwort). It’s available year round at your local Korean grocer, though sometimes sporadically. Now I’m craving kimchi!

I’ve made it about the same number of times, and I’ve enjoyed them all. Maybe I don’t know what really good kimchi tastes like.

It lasts for a long time in the fridge and, imo, it gets better with time. The ingredients I use aren’t always the same, aside from the cabbage, salt and garlic.

I’ve used different combinations of carrot, spring onion, chilli flakes, ginger, fish sauce. I’m keen to try the anchovy paste that I just learnt about.

Late reply — but if nothing else I think you need saeu-jeot/새우젓 (fermented salted shrimp). It’s an odd thing to have in your fridge, no doubt; but it kick-starts the fermentation process and gives a real depth of flavor. The minari gives a really traditional flavor. Oh, and matchsticks of Korean radish (mu) ensure you end up with a lot of juicy kimchi brine to use in stews and such. :)

What’s always amazed me about the kimchi making process, and other fermented products, I suppose, is the vast variation in ingredients that can go into the same dish and still produce the same fermentation process across geographic regions without the introduction of any specific yeast or bacteria strains. You can basically wash and salt napa cabbage, put it on the shelf, and a day later it’s bubbling with edible bacteria. That being said, different batches of kimchi from different people have vastly different flavors as well.

There’s a local brand near Seattle called Yummy Kimchi that makes amazing kimchi which we consumed in large quantities. Now that I’m not in the area, it’s been hard to find kimchi that is as good. The product is highly amenable to shipping but because of the variations in taste without a standard way to describe them, I’d be forced to try many batches from different places which is frustrating, time consuming, and wasteful. Anyone have luck discovering a shipped kimchi they love?

I don't know much about kimchi but the best pickels (achar) in India were made in earthenware pots. Also some curries and lentils taste best when cooked in earthenware pots. Last but not the least, chai when served in the earthen pots.

Honestly, not really a fan of earthenware pots due to how easy they are to make you can't really trust the quality of them. I know in India a lot of vendors use dung in their mixture and well... It's just that honestly you can't really tell if they have anything else wrong with them at a glance, overtime they might ware and degrade and lead to possible contamination, I don't think that they're really safe to use. Even the glazes can be problematic and sometimes you just won't even know. Often contaminating the food.

Surely the concern with dung isn't biological contamination? That seems like it should be impossible given the firing process.

This probably explains why my grandma's homemade polish dill pickles were so superior in comparison with any others that I had tried. She was using earthenware pots too.

FYI Korea has one of the highest rates of stomach cancer in the world. It used to be number one. This is supposed to be diet related.

https://www.wcrf.org/cancer-trends/stomach-cancer-statistics...

What a coincidence, few hour ago I bought a pot to make choucroute (also fermented cabbage)

Oooh I had no idea we had these. I'll get one and make my next batch of kimchi in it. Merci l'Alsacien·ne!

For interesting but funny coverage of this, the show Korea No. 1 on Netflix might be interesting to people.

Same goes for sauerkraut.

Why is this on HN?

You'll find a lot of submissions on HN then to put that comment on. From the site guidelines on what to submit: "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity". Whether kimchi qualifies is utterly subjective.

Just boil some water, add some vinegar and some spices, and pour over the cabbage. That's it. Will it taste the same as kimchi? About 90%.

Pickling is fundamentally different from fermentation. Their only commonalities are being methods of preserving food and having a broadly sour taste. Kimchi is much more complex than simple brined cabbage![0]

"Pickled cabbage with added spices" and "kimchi" are different foods with different flavor profiles, just like Ruby and Python have vaguely similar styles yet entirely different vibes.

[0] https://mykoreankitchen.com/kimchi-recipe/#recipe

Next up: we tell a Scotsman that putting a slug of vodka into a malt extract drink gets you 90% of the way to whiskey.

that's a well known drink called the "No True Scotsman"

This is what every corner sushi shop in Germany does for their "Kimchi" and it's pretty awful.

I believe you, but can we back up to the bit about sushi joints serving kimchi and expand a bit on that?

I don't think I can do justice to the whole history of why there are so many Vietnamese-run sushi restaurants serving this style of "kimchi" in this country, sorry. I can barely even explain the crispy asparagus and raw bell pepper maki.

IME most sushi places in the US in particular are operated by Koreans, not Japanese.

When that's the case the kimchi is fine, though.

Here in Germany it's usually mediocre sushi and intolerable kimchi; instead if you go to a cheap sushi place you should often be ordering the pho or the bún.

"most ... in the US" is probably going overboard, but that's not too far from the truth in LA, where, for instance, many of the restaurants in little tokyo are korean-owned, despite the namesake. there can be good korean sushi, but it mostly tends toward the cheaper end, which means it's often not as good as a japanese sushi bar, where the best sushi is exquisitely delicious (and quite expensive). it seems like japanese sushi chefs aren't interested in the lower end of the market, so cede it to others willingly, and touristy areas like little tokyo have plenty of unsuspecting customers to keep those businesses afloat.

LA has the best korean food in the US, particularly because it has the best banchan (like kimchi!). even so, i generally wouldn't go to a korean sushi restaurant for good sushi in LA.

Where I am in the west coast US, most Korean restaurants that I have been in serve sushi. Seems to be quite a bit of crossover between Japanese and Korean cuisine.

You seem like the type of person who just eats food for energy and survival.

Almost not at all.

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