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Comment by dontupvoteme | Hacker News Reader

That is very surprising to me given the German system of incredibly detailed and basically graded (1.0-4.0 / A-F for Americans) employee reference statements (to say nothing about the coded comments about alcohol use, fraternization, etc that specific word usage implies)

Sure the American system is the other way around (say nothing because they could sue if we say more than dates they worked here), but is that never challenged for defamation?

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The coded nature of German employer references is to make them lawsuit-proof. “But it said you ‘performed your duties to their satisfaction’ - what’s libelous about that?”

(“Performed duties to our satisfaction” = yeah, they showed up and generally attempted to do what they were told, but that’s about it)

Is there a motivating factor for providing a reference in Germany?

My experience in the US is not necessarily that people are worried they're going to be sued, or that they couldn't make an objective reference, but that the effort and risk are both non-zero -- and the benefit to the company is ~zero.

The motivating factor is that the employee simply has a right to a reference when leaving.

Sometimes an employee might ask for an interim report (for example when changing departments, etc.) but that's something that is provided on a voluntarily basis.

I thought employers had to provide a Zwischenzeugnis if you requested one. Maybe not…

I just researched it a bit more. So while you don't have an entitlement to a Zwischenzeugnis per se, you are entitled if you have a "good reason" to request one. According to some judgements a "good reason" is for example a change of your superiors or if you want to apply for a job elsewhere.

In my career I've requested quite a few Zwischenzeugnisse and never been denied. Probably a place where you have to fight to get one is not a place where you want to be employed anyways.

Employers are legally required to give you a reference letter (“Zeugnis”) when you leave, and also whenever you request one or are about to take a long leave (“Zwischenzeugnis”) - I received one before I left for my year of maternity leave. Your prospective employers absolutely expect to see at least your most recent one, and I had a bit of fun explaining to the boss who hired me that all you’ll ever get out of an American employer is dates of employment and job title.

If you work here, keep up with them as carefully as you do your employment contracts.

I have colleagues who habitually request a Zwischenzeugnis every 3-5 years, even if they’re not currently looking for a new job.

Yet I've seen HR documents which directly map the code to the rating. I can't imagine this stuff holds up in court when I remember reading about it online years ago and anyone working in HR in the country will immediately confirm it.

I think the main difference is that the German system revolves around freedom of opinion and not freedom of speech. If you assert a negative fact about someone, you have to be able to proof it. You are however free to express your opinion about anyone and anything.

Section 186 and 187 are probably relevant for that: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...

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