[1] https://truthout.org/articles/us-provides-military-assistanc...
This comment gets thrown around a lot but oversimplifies things.
First, in the 90s, 2000s, and some of the 2010s ‘the US’ was China’s biggest cheerleader, investor, and supporter. Most US elites knew China would eventually become a bigger economy due to their 4x larger population, and were ok with it as long as they got to share in the wealth creation. To the extent those folks were the decision makers and thus ‘the US’, they didn’t dislike the idea of being the #2 economy.
Second, sure the US doesn’t want to lose control of the mostly peaceful, prosperous, and free rules-based order it created after the disastrous first half of the 20th century. And rightly so. There is zero chance that a cult of personality totalitarian dictator like Xi Jinping is ever going to make anything broadly better for the entire world than what the US created, despite its mistakes and flaws along the way. None. It’s completely legitimate for the US to not want to lose control of that, which would mean losing some or all of it to something worse.
I don’t agree with everything the US govt does - Iraq was a travesty, and I have no idea what went on with Libya, or what is going on with Syria, for example. But there’s a 0% chance that a world dominated by Xi Jinping and the CCP would be better.
Which has been the justification every hegemonic power has offered when working to undermine a rising power.
Whose rules are they, and who do they benefit? Who has most egregiously exempted themselves from the rules without consequence?
I agree that 'a world dominated by Xi Xinping' would be worse - though it's not clear they have any aspiration to global primacy, like the US did post-WW2 - but that's no reason to peddle myths about American exceptionalism.
- Have you ever considered how much of your stuff comes via shipping lanes protected by the US Navy? Somali pirates got to FAFO what the USN thinks of pirates and we all see how that money making scheme has resonated around the globe.
- No US support = no Ukraine today (full stop)
- Is Taiwan still an independent country?
Ask what’s left of the US middle class that, then ask the new Chinese middle class the same question. In terms of pure quantity of people benefiting, China wins - beneficiaries were hundreds of millions of Chinese who rose out of poverty, the capital owners in both China and US, and the CCP. Losers were the US middle class, which was one of the main reasons for the rise of Trump, and the US political system as a result of that.
> US doesn’t want to lose control of the mostly peaceful, prosperous, and free rules-based order it created after the disastrous first half of the 20th century.
> despite its mistakes and flaws along the way
"Mistakes and flaws" is one hell of an understatement.
The global suppression of any leftist or communist leaning/related movements (operation CONDOR et al. ). The funding of guerilla and other violent groups in order to install US-friendly governments, or simply exterminate leftists (Contras, Indonesia in 1965). The installation or support of many dictators who massacred and sacked their own people (Noriega, Pinochet, throughout South America). The outright invasion of a few countries who didn't play ball.
The modern US is relatively harmless, and yes, a world dominated by the CCP would probably be worse. But let's please not forget what the US did to achieve its current world order.
Beautifully spoken. Yet you still speak of peaceful, free and rules-based order.
The US likes dealing with democracies because the US has so much know how in how to influence elections. The government and CIA has a long history of meddling in elections to get the outcome that is most beneficial for the US.
Ultimately, this has built up many dictatorships around the world that violently suppress political opinions that are detrimental to the US national security.
If you don't know what was going on the middle east with iraq, libya, and syria, read this[1]. After 9/11, before the dust settled, the US wanted to force a regime change in 7 countries that they had no proof was related to 9/11. The US decimated an entire region and sent them back to the stone age for unstated reasons. Please note, all of those countries were not democracies, so they couldn't meddle in elections for more favorable leaders.
China and Xi have been smart enough to avoid a revolution/coup to become an American colony.
Foreign elections only though. They would never steer or nudge the people here that would end up being their supervisors. We know that doesn't happen.
Sounds a bit revisionist. Maybe you don't remember what Clinton called Bush Sr during his campaign. Back then the normal trade tariff was called "Most Favored Nation" status, a concept developed by the US in the 19th century and brought to Japan and China with gunboat diplomacy. China's status was reviewed annually by Congress and some members perennially threatened to take it away. So there was an annual wave of lobby effort on show to keep the status coupled with sweeteners from China like deals to buy Boeings etc. So they renamed MFN to PNTR to make it sound more innocuous, which it was. Only with Chinese accession to the WTO did the practice end. When Bush Jr. got into office, everyone was expecting him to get tougher on China, when Chinese GDP was one tenth of US. But then 9/11 happened.
What rules are those?
China has made no move to dominate the world as the West has continued to do throughout history. Even the Belt and Road Initiative is a trade initiative to benefit all participating nations. China isn't going to build military bases around the world, or force countries to adopt their political proclivities, unlike the US.
As a communist country, China inherently believes that if all grow rich, all will benefit. This is completely unlike capitalism in which "there can be only one."
The US and other Western countries are far far far from perfect. They suck in many ways. But I much prefer the West's values over that of the Chinese government's, as flawed as they might be.
Certainly another potential global hegemon could be better for the world than the US (or, perhaps, no hegemon at all). But IMO China ain't it.
What exactly does China dictate about your lives?
I see people treat this like a fact, but there doesn't seem to be an incentive for China to instill its "way of life" outside of it, does there? So far this seems like a totally western outlook on external politics.
Extra-territorial policing might be a good start to the list.
(Posted from Hong Kong)
And? Do you want Xi Xinping in charge of global culture, security, finance? How is that working out for your average Chinese these days (and I’m not talking about the previous freeer era).
You want social credit scores? One man basically in charge of the global military?
You paint a picture of America as an evil empire, but what do the alternatives look like?
The nice alternatives don't have big enough militaries to be considered seriously, one could point at some European nations for a more measured approach, but it's hard to do it seriously when we only exist because the US saved us and continues to do so, as Europe pretty much has no military power if push comes to shove.
Yes that's whatabouttism but the world actually does suffer from the current state as well
China doesn't seem to try to enforce global policies (right now) nether do they claim the moral right for OUR society.
Being able to publicly censor foreigners who dislike your policies is a useful power.
When you control economic access to a billion people, you don't always need guns to get others to do that you want. (China does have plenty of those guns, though, if and when they decide they need them.)
In Europe nudity definitely is more normal than violence. America is forcing their different moral view on our media, normalizing violence and ashaming the youth with oldschool sexual views.
And so far I haven't seen any signs that china is trying to change that.
While visa and master banning all related to sex has real life consequences. Same with social media showing a skewed censored view on sexuality because of morality views that do not fit the society I live in. Until a few years ago you couldn't watch TV without something exploding and the US military somehow saving the day in every second movie.
We have to comply to rules that do not apply to our society.
Today we have several real time payment methods "better" than credit card. I still can't sell a dildo with paypal, but I do have options now (if I don't care about us customers who expect credit card payments)
Social media ist lost cause anyway.
Maybe that should be my point. America is losing its influence, and it's obviously afraid. I am afraid when America is afraid because history has shown in might react wildly.
Why not? Granted, I'm not an American. I haven't heard any Chinese Foreign minister goading of having killed hundreds of thousands of kids the same way as the US did [1], so why shouldn't the rest of the world give China a chance instead of the US?
As such, I'd need other sources than Western media to tell me what to think about what happens to the Uighurs (whom I'm sure do not have an easy life, far from it).
Chinese sources will be devoid of any information which can put a bad face on the party even in the second order effects.
Maybe go ahead and find those alternate news sources, explain why you believe they are accurate, and present a conclusion?
If the choice is between the US or China running the world, I'll pick the US, every. single. time.
Objectively speaking, the US history of genocide, slavery and global warfare and terrorist sponsorship even before becoming an uncontested hegemony hardly makes it look better.
> If the choice is between the US or China running the world, I'll pick the US, every. single. time.
Sure, but I would bet that you might just be privileged enough to live nearby the US inner economic circle.
This is your daily reminder that social credit scores don't actually exist. They're a myth, a meme.
That said, I disagree the US doesn't like China because it will be the #2 economy. The US doesn't care about that. What it cares about is a potentially hostile power.
To claim that these representatives don't make their decisions based on morality, or any other value that individuals have, is strictly false.
One might argue that only individuals who have opinions in line with national interests are electable, but that would be bullshit. If there's anything to truly be internalized about the elections of Barack Obama followed by Donald Trump, it's that individuals have a profound influence on American policy. If there were national interests that were solely responsible for US policy, they why was both foreign and domestic policy profoundly different across presidencies?
I'm genuinely curious how your worldview has an answer to this.
Consider the Twitterfiles, the government is actively censoring speech critical of the FBI and politicians. Think of the Hunter Biden laptop story, do you think that if that speech was not censored that different policies would be supported by the masses and that they would elect different representatives?
People need to know information to make good decisions. If they don't know the information, obviously, they won't consider that in the decision making process
Thus it's perfectly valid to say that it's never about whether it's morally right to support dictatorships. China is disliked by the US because it's a threat to America being #1 economically, not because it's a dictatorship. The same is true for human rights abuses, of course.
Individual politicians might have certain morals or values. I really believe Obama wanted to close Gitmo but if you look at the results, they're absolutely predictable and not at all based on any morals the US claims to have.
The US will work with one-party countries as long as they're not a threat economically. How else do you think that Americans cheer when factories get moved to Vietnam, which is significantly worse in human rights?
Both of these things can't be true at the same time:
1. The US is concerned for Chinese citizens economically because there is only one government party in China.
2. The US thinks that CCP's policies are too effective economically that it might overtake the US as the #1 economy.
The US and China have the same amount of morals. It's basic human instincts. What's at stake here is purely socioeconomics.
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/vietnam/vietnams-human-righ...
Also China doesn’t let you go where the real human rights abuses are in Xinjiang.
Our morals in international politics are always just applied selectively, and there are few examples of where our best interest and moral considerations clash - because morality is immediately ignored or downplayed when interest is involved.
>Based on Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, it was established by the US International Broadcasting Act of 1994 with the stated aim of "promoting democratic values and human rights", and countering the narrative of the Chinese Communist Party, as well as providing media reports about the North Korean government.[12] It is funded and supervised by the U.S. Agency for Global Media[13] (formerly Broadcasting Board of Governors), an independent agency of the United States government.
Also, it may be worth dropping by much of the Middle East to get another reality check on this question.
The only thing economic development seems to consistently result in is a higher demand for imports.
[1] Well, the nice parts of it are much wealthier than they used to be. The provincial towns are dying, and all the productive industries have been pushed out by oil and services.
Please don't preach on hackernews. Instead try and communicate what you know and how you know it.