System76 Teases Their “Virgo” In-House Manufactured Laptop | Hacker News Reader

System76 Teases Their “Virgo” In-House Manufactured Laptop

phoronix.com

95 pointskungfudoi40 comments

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System76 is still collecting laptop design suggestions here:

https://github.com/system76/laptop-suggestions

The most popular suggestion (by number of upvotes) is to add a TrackPoint-style pointer:

https://github.com/system76/laptop-suggestions/issues/25

I hope they deliver.

Does anyone actually think the trackpoint is superior to a modern trackpad like what apple is using? This seems like a fetish object with a vocal following.

I’ve used one a long time ago and I did like it. The fact that you don’t have to move your hands off the keyboard is it’s main selling point. Though I’ve adjusted to not having one.

At one point my work mouse had a track point instead of a scroll wheel. That was amazing. To be able to scroll around at different speeds.

I have a laptop with both a trackpoint and a touchpad with physical buttons. I bought it specifically for those buttons, but that's another story. I never use a mouse except once every few years, if I have to try some game. Move and click does not work on a touchpad.

So, I attempted to learn to use the trackpoint but it's too difficult. My hands are already close to the touchpad and very far from the mouse, that's why I don't use a mouse anymore. The incremental benefit to switch from touchpad to trackpoint is very small IMHO. Moving from mouse to trackpoint is probably huge.

If you are doing a lot of typing, why move your hand off the keys? Scrolling by holding the middle mouse button with your thumb and just slightly moving the TrackPoint is also a much a nicer experience thank scrolling with any touchpad. Using laptops with only touchpads is always an uncomfortable and inefficient experience to me.

Having more manufacturers of decent laptops with TrackPoints would be great instead of mostly just being beholding to Lenovo.

You can't really say one is "superior" or even objectively better. Apple's touchpads are <unspecified amount> better than others but I still hate them and would always use a trackpoint (if I can't have a mouse).

Some people swear that trackballs are better than a mouse, can you argue the mouse is superior? It's a question of preference and discussion on this level is kinda pointless.

To me it's a superior concept with an inferior execution. Perhaps because nobody else does it, so no competition or innovation, like Apple came out with a much better trackpad, were ahead a while, and now it seems mostly levelled.

> fetish object

A tool that I use productively every day is not something I would describe as a "fetish object". I've put years of use into mice, trackpads, and pointing sticks, and I've found pointing sticks to be the most comfortable and efficient tool for me. There are other people who feel differently for any number of reasons, but TrackPoint users are entitled to their preferences just as other people are entitled to theirs. Nobody needs to prove that their preference is "superior" before they buy the product they want.

The only remaining laptop maker that puts a serious effort into implementing pointing sticks into their devices is Lenovo with their ThinkPad lines. Unfortunately, Lenovo has been making negative changes to ThinkPads over the years, such as soldering memory and reducing key travel. This opens up an opportunity for other laptop makers (such as System76) to claim the TrackPoint users who only are only buying ThinkPads because the TrackPoint makes up for the other disadvantages.

Yes.

Between System 76 and Framework, it's clear there's demand for open and not bullshit hardware. Linux really is getting better by the second (spoken as a NixOS daily driver on 4 machines - Windows gives me an ulcer. Thank god for Wine!)

I'm a long long time Linux user but I'm not ready to use Nix. I don't know that I ever will. I'm 47, and the only new tech I learn is "on the job". I seem to be able to do anything required of me between the hours of 9 and 5, but as soon as work ends I just can't muster the motivation to tinker any more. And if I do it's likely something that's relevant to my work.

So basically, I need Nix to be required for my job. And since 99% of what I do these days is cloud / Kubernetes, I don't think it'll happen.

Sad, because I like the concept of Nix. I just know that it's a huge frustrating learning curve that I don't really need.

Having said all of that, I am a 100% Linux user and I agree that it's getting better by the second. With one exception: if you're a graphic artist like my wife, it sucks. The FOSS software is awful, Adobe products are "for rent" and the Affinity products suck badly on wine.

I've been lucky enough to use Nix and NixOS at work. It's kind of coupled with Haskell nowadays (every Haskell shop I've even interviewed at has used Nix)

I agree about the art software. Krita is getting better I guess as is Blender (and Grease Pencil for 2D). But my wife loves Clip Studio Paint and it doesn't play nice with wine either. Apparently Krita is very deliberately cribbing from CSP so maybe someday it'll leapfrog it. But for now, macOS for art.

Well, MacOS or Windows, since most decent graphic software works on both.

My first thought was that I hope they mimic Framework and basically makes a competitor that is compatible with the form factor and add-ons.

I frequently see folks complain that System76 are just "resellers," or that their machines are "just Clevo rebrands." Here's a rebuttal to that sentiment from one of the S76 developers:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5umefi/system76_refr...

I have 2 and the label gives a Clevo#. This number was useful when used to buy spare parts when my fan went . As a consumer we can't buy a machine from Clevo, only resellers can. I mean Clevo makes what system76 wants and there is no doubt that there is some back and forth. Its not like system76 machines are really unique in terms of laptops. (though they have Mat screens which is great)

but my work machine according to the label is a NL50NU. If you google search, you'll see some other makers selling a similar machine (same model# but some have a different suffix.). Its a solid machine, great for developing on.

I think system76s value proposition is they'll sell you a laptop and it will work with Linux out of the box without being a linux expert. No issues setting up wifi drivers, the machines with NVidia graphic will work, and the sound will work. They provide updates (very frequently..) and a repo of applications that work. Sleep and wake usually work..

I'm not sure what the cost differential between a barebones Clevo machine is but over the course of 4 years, not having to have to think about OS stability is worth money to me. For a desktop its a little different as that hardware is much better supported.

I've found it hard to get too excited about System76 stuff for a long time, since seeing that they make binding arbitration a requirement in their purchase agreement:

https://system76.com/terms

Seems somewhat antithetical to the brand of "we're not like those other megacorp hw/sw monopolies".

The crowd that system76 wants to court has a good overlap with the crowd that dislikes binding arbitration clauses.

Qs:

- Given the de facto technology wars, are there now additional USG benefits flowing to, or able to flow to System76 due to this being a native-US hardware product? Grant money? Tax benefits?

- Why does the aluminum look ridged or corrugated like that? It's flat, right?

It was milled. This means it was shaped by a small rotating rod cutting it down to the right size/shape[1]. My guess is that it hasn't gone through finishing yet (or is an internal part is fine being roughed, though the logo belies that).

1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPPCTKl_-lY

I think "teases" is a bit of a stretch given that there is no information provided about the system.

They tweeted an unfinished sheet of aluminum. This is not by itself related to a laptop at all.

It's a very thin client

It's at the least definitive proof that they're delivering an in-house laptop soon, rather than a Clevo rebrand. That's something.

I think saying “soon” might be a bit optimistic.

2024?

I cannot fathom how much optimism and blind trust it would take to call an unfinished sheet of aluminum "definitive proof that they're delivering an in-house laptop soon".

Because that unfinished sheet of aluminum is the culmination of business decisions that required a future-looking investment, which you don't do on a whim.

It's not even what I give a crap about when I complain about clevo rebrands.

Give me a plastic chassis, it's lighter handles bumps and insulates heat from my legs better.

This seems promising. Combined with pop!_os, this should make for a very nice linux machine.

Manufactured in Denver? Nice.

US made? Damn, by the time it reaches the EU, it will probably have a huge markup.

What grinds my gears is that although there's enough industry in Europe there's nobody manufacturing laptops or phones here.

MNT Reform (Berlin) looks very interesting. I like their focus on open hardware.

Tuxedo computers? They are assembled in Germany, which is a step below manufacturing I assume, but at least they design their computers themselves, as opposed to re-branding a white label product like System76 does/did.

Tuxedo designed in Germany? No, they're just rebranded Clevo/Tongfang chassis like e everyone else with slight changes based on tuxedo's specs, that's it.

It's ironic that despite US wages and manufacturing being more expensive than Germany's, System76 can design and manufacturer PCs and laptops in US, and Germany doesn't.

We've been sold this lie that we can't make computers and phones in Europe anymore because it's too expensive compared to China and now US goes ahead and does it.

It seems you are right! Well, I hope System76 smashes it and inspires someone in Europe to give it a go.

I doubt anyone or any VC in EU would fund a company designing and building our own laptops. With Philips being the latest European consumer electronics giant to go down I doubt many are hopeful for a resurgence of European electronics.

Starlabs, based in england. They make their own laptops, not based on clevo. https://starlabs.systems/pages/about-us

Based on the crap they have been reselling thus far, I don't believe system76 can deliver quality hardware. I hope I'm wrong.

How is that related to their in-house hardware? You're looking to blame Clevo, not system76.

Well, they signed off on it. They said "Yep, this is good. Let's put our name on it and sell it our customers". So yes, blame them for the quality of their products that they are selling.

I've had a System76 happily since 2019 -- I really love my Oryx Pro.

The start was rocky (dead cooling unit on delivery), but since then it's been purring along just great.

What issues have you been seeing? At this point they've shipped a lot of hardware and software and I haven't seen the alarm raised so much.

After using all Apple from the ][+ to the M1 MacBook Air I switched to a System76 Darter Pro a few months ago and I am very happy with it.

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