Hacker News Reader

People in Finland bike everyday during winter in the snow, there's nothing really stopping you from doing the same except for winterproofing your bike (proper winter tyres basically).

I don't get that argument, if an e-bike can replace 60-70% of the trips people would use a car for, it's a very compelling car alternative.

> replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices that I don't see the averge American being willing to make.

Maybe the issue is the American lifestyle, not e-bikes.

> People in Finland bike everyday during winter in the snow, there's nothing really stopping you from doing the same

Finland gets significantly less snowfall than we do here in winter (Oulu gets like 1/6 the snow that we get less in January, for example), and it is much colder and drier there which makes for better cycling conditions.

> “Sure, it is easier here than in the south," he said. "-15℃ is much better to cycle in than sleet.” From November to the beginning of April, temperatures usually stay below freezing, with average temperatures in January and February below -10℃.“ This makes for pretty good circumstances,” Vaarala noted, adding that salt is not used on Oulu's streets. Instead, ploughs only clear away the uppermost layer of snow. “The thin layer of remaining snow on the ground gets packed when people cycle on it, and thanks to the snow, you will get a quite good grip.” Simola, who cycles daily, agreed, saying that pedalling on the snow can be even more comfortable than on the bare asphalt.[1]

They also spend a sigificant amount to keep bike lanes clear of snow, which my city does not (they spend a significant portion of their budget already just trying to keep roads passable for cars/trucks). And even then, cycling rates in Finland drop significantly in the winter (from 20% of all trips to 10%), so a lot of people must be choosing not to cycle in the winter.

Basically Finland benefits from a rather unique set of geographical and cultural circumstances, and I don't think what works for them would work everywhere.

[1] https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-...

This reminded me of a video I saw recently about the Bahamas, whose capital (Nassau) is a small island (~1 hour across via a bike), with near-perfect weather (all-year sunshine, but not too hot, rainfall mostly in the summer), no hills, perfect conditions for biking, right?

In spite of the above almost everyone has a car. Public transport is almost non-existent, and bicycles are rare (and of course, there is no bike infrastructure).

It is really not about the weather, it is about the mindset.

Probably this video, on the Not Just Bikes channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdz6FeQLuHQ

Are the jitneys gone? That was as close to public transit as they had in Nassau when I was there ages ago.

For a couple Bahamian dollars, you could get almost anywhere. Granted, you got to see how the poor people lived, but it was certainly interesting. And it was fun yelling "bus stop" when you wanted to get off.

>[Finland] also spends a sigificant amount to keep bike lanes clear of snow

Lol, I wish. They just sprinkle some gravel down over the snow and call it a day. Also, I disagree with the parent comment that a lot of people bike here during the winter. It's maybe 1% of the amount of people who bike during the rest of the year.

I was thinking more specifically about Oulu, which was featured recently in a viral YouTube video about winter cycling [1]. They do seem to have a pretty well-maintained network of bike paths in winter (though admittedly I have never been so I am only going by things I have seen or read). Apologies for generalizing about all of Finland!

[1] https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU

> proper winter tyres basically

(insert obligatory Nokia reference here)

I would recommend you come and visit the US in one of our lovely suburbs where simple trips to the grocery store often have you driving 70 mph on a four lane highway loaded with large SUVS, pickup trucks, and 18-wheelers.

so what you’re saying is that the american lifestyle is the issue

You may not agree with it, but when people realize they can have an extra 10 grant a year post-tax by using a cargo bike instead of a car they might be persuaded. We'd need to fix the car-choked misery of American cities though.

I'm American and I intend to do this, but it's only made feasible by moving to the Netherlands, which is much better designed.

> when people realize they can have an extra 10 grant a year post-tax by using a cargo bike instead of a car they might be persuaded.

Sure, some people might. And every little bit helps.

But car ownership rates in the US are actually increasing in recent years, despite the fact that cars are getting more expensive to own. And cars keep getting bigger, too. I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect large numbers of Americans to trade in their SUVs and pickup trucks for tiny little e-bikes.

We need to quit thinking trade the car for a bike and start thinking use the bike for a few trips.

I live near a major bike path. Every bar along it has a lot of bike parking ,but none of the other stores and restaurants have any at all, not even the bike shop. Many people drive their bike to the bike trail instead of riding.

How do we get people to ride their bikes to get groceries? They could also ride to church on Sunday, or other similar activities. These little trips need to be tackled before we think about getting rid of cars.

How expensive is it to live where you don't need a car?

> when people realize they can have an extra 10 grant a year post-tax by using a cargo bike instead of a car

The only people spending $10K/year on their car want to. The kind of folks who would be most swayed by a financial argument manage to spend much less. On top of that, your analysis is one-sided. What would be the going rate for additional daylight hours if I could sell them on the open market?

Once you account for the initial purchase price, insurance, fuel, maintenance, and parking, $10K/year on average is probably an underestimate.

That doesn't even account for increased costs created by auto-centric development, which incentivizes sprawl and makes housing more expensive (eliminating parking minimums can cut monthly rents by $250 per unit because you can fit in a lot more units), roads more expensive, and even simple things like eating out at a restaurant more expensive because you're still paying for all that parking, even if it's baked into the purchase price.

It is certainly possible to have a car for only a few grand a year by buying used cars and doing your own maintenance and repairs on your own, but that comes with the compromise of decreased reliability, and most Americans need a reliable car. My own costs are probably around $5K a year because I drive a 20-year-old diesel VW Jetta, but I also don't need a car on a day-to-day basis because I bike to work.

>Cars are faster, can ...

>For the three months of the year when it snows

>replacing a car with an e-bike would require a lot of sacrifices

I never got that argument. And some drivers are really passionate about what their cars can do that bikes can't.

It's not about replacing cars, but just about having an additional vehicle that you can choose in the morning.

Boeing's most popular plane was the 737, a lightweight and operationally convenient plane.

But airlines were never told to replace their 747s or 777s with 737s ! And they never replaced 737s with the 787 because the Dreamliner can do more !

You can own an ebike to go to work or to the bakery, and still have a car to go across the state, to go shopping, or to drive when you don't want to ride your bike.

It still saves money, fuel, and the environment, in the end.

> It's not about replacing cars

I agree, but was responding to a quote from the article saying that e-cargo bikes are “car replacers”.

> It still saves money, fuel, and the environment, in the end.

Only if you actually use it, though. Sadly I see a lot of people buy bikes with aspirations to ride them every day, but they end up not being used.

A 737 is to a 747 as a Honda Civic is to a full size SUV.

If you want the aviation comparison to work, the e-bike would be an ultralight.

The e-bike would be a four seater Cessna.

A normal bike would be the ultralight :)

I considered that, but decided the regular bike would be an unpowered glider and therefore the e-bike should at least be an ultralight. ;-)

Yes there is a bit more discomfort in rain or snow, but it gives you a workout, is trivial to park, and is practically free to own/operate.

I service my own bike and it costs me maaaaybe 150$ a year if I’m being generous. The bicycle cost around 2000$ to put together (ebike) counting all the tools I didn’t have.

A car otoh would easily cost 200–300$/month just for existing (parking at home, taxes, and insurance). Never mind gas, traffic fines, parking at destination, maintenance, and the lack of exercise using one involves. Or the pollution and space it takes up.

I also got a 300$ trailer that can haul 90 lbs (iirc), I’ve used it for Costco style groceries, ikea furniture transport and the hill to go back home is about 8% grade. No sweat with the torque sensing ebike.