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Comment by slowmotiony | Hacker News Reader

Electronics prices in the EU are simply crazy. Recently i wanted to get a small mini-PC that would be energy efficient and I could run some AI experiments on. Reading online forums, everyone's like "just get a mac mini, couple hundred bucks and you're golden". I check the apple website and turns out they actually cost almost a thousand euro for the 16GB/256GB model.

But its the same with a lot of other electronics too - people online will tell you something like "just get a raspberry for $40" but then you look at the European ebay and you're in for at least a 100 euro and that's for a used one.

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Rasbpis are expensive because people started using them for products (why make a board to flash these lights when I can put a cheap Pi in there with a program to do it?) and during the chip shortage they started prioritizing businesses -- which is against their self-described mission, but whatever.

They still haven't caught up production enough to stifle the price increases.

Yeah they really caused some bad blood with this business prioritisation.. Not just with us in the community but also with Broadcom who now view them as competitors as opposed to a friendly outreach project.

They should have stuck with their core IMO.

I'm not very deep in the raspberry PI world, mostly because it's been hard getting a hold of one. Are there alternatives that the community has gravitated towards?

Check out Pine64:

* https://pine64.com/product-category/single-board-computers/

The Rock64 fits in a Pi3 case and is roughly equiv. and runs DietPi (makes a good Pihole).

The RockPro64 is a great media machine.

The A64 doesn't really do it for me but I am sure it has applications.

My one big complaint about the Rock64 design is that the tiny barrel power plug (the same size and voltage used for USB powered hubs) is right next to the 3.5mm audio jack and fits inside and if you mistakenly put it in it will fry the board (ask me how I know). I have taken to popping the connector off shitty headphones and putting it in the audio jack so that can't happen.

For the original hobby niche of small electronic projects where a microcrontroller with wifi will suffice, the ESP8266 / ESP32 have been quickly overtaking the pi zero. Of course it's not really comparable and there is the Rpi Pico as a competitor but I find the ESP32 much easier to work with. It's also much cheaper (not to mention the 8266)

For heavier usecases that really there isn't as much of an alternative. Many other boards like the pine64, beagle and orangepi, but their ecosystem lacks sophistication.

Electronics prices in the EU are simply crazy.

I did these calculations a while back on various Mac models and the price difference was actually not that large. The US prices are without VAT. Add the 19 or 21% of VAT that is typical for EU countries and it's almost the same. The difference grew a bit, because the Euro became a bit stronger relative to the USD since Apple made their last announcements.

mini-PC that would be energy efficient and I could run some AI experiments on

Don't do that, an M2 has very limited compute. A cheap RTX2060 Super from some years back will be many many times faster when you use Tensor Cores.

> Add the 19 or 21% of VAT that is typical for EU countries and it's almost the same.

These taxes seem punitive. For essential goods such as computers, that seems way too high.

Seems completely fair to me? A good computer lasts many years, the cost (outside Macs) has gone down a lot and you can get a second hand computer at very low prices. Also a lot of other tech-related costs are much lower here than compared to e.g. the US, like much more affordable broadband internet.

Electronics prices in the EU are simply crazy

This has been true for Europe for a long time.

In the early 90's, I had a particular Sony Walkman that I was very fond of. I paid about US$100 for it.

A couple of months later, I accidentally left it on the plane as I was transferring in Paris. When I got to Vienna, I was delighted to discover that it was also available there, so I bought a replacement. I was not delighted to find out that it cost nearly double what I paid for it in the U.S.

There's something about Europe and electronics that always seems to equal higher prices. It's been going on for at least a half a century.

Is it tariffs or something?

Everything in Canada is usually 10-25% more expensive than the US, besides stuff covered under NAFTA. Consumer things like clothes/electronics are usually the biggest victims.

But I just compared the Apple stores and the base Macbook = $999USD vs $1299CAD, doing pure currency conversion $1299CAD = $965.96USD, so it's technically ~$32USD cheaper in Canada? Probably just out-of-step with currency markets/inflation.

Sales tax is a lot higher in EU, so that accounts for 15-20% (at least) of the end consumer price difference.

And that sales tax (maybe other taxes too) aren't shown in US product displays, but they are basically everywhere else.

It’s mostly the Euro having weakened vis-à-vis the USD, plus some very minor components like private-copying levy. European prices are usually listed including sales tax, which can make them appear higher compared to the US list prices which don’t include tax.

The euro is above the dollar again so that point doesn't really fly anymore.

Price increases tend to be sticky.

Apple only adjusts the prices once per year per product, at most.

Yup, at most. They're still selling my 2019 Mac Pro configured the way I have it (12 core, 192GB, 8TB, W5700X 16GB) for $13,000, just as it was in 2019...

... and if I go to trade it in, they'll give me $850 for it ...

> ... and if I go to trade it in, they'll give me $850 for it ...

Lol, that's a joke :D

I'm really surprised how they let the Pro range suffer though. Every 5-6 years there is a major release bringing it up to spec but in between nothing happens at all, not even a minor redesign for the latest CPUs.

This is what I don't get - the Pro is specifically aimed at those needing the maximum performance out of their machine. But after the first year this has been overtaken by the rest of the market and the remaining years until the next redesign it's a pityful excuse for a high-end workstation. Not to mention they won't even drop the price (ok for the trash can model they actually did that once.)

So, to whom is this still an appealing offer? Who invests top dollar into apple workstations when it's almost guaranteed they're going to be left in an awkward spot with nowhere to upgrade every few years? What's the point of this whole product line this way?

> private-copying levy

What's that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy

Private copy levy is so insignificant that it's just weird to mention it. We're talking about a tenth of a percent of the price of a MB here.

> so it's technically ~$32USD cheaper in Canada?

I've noticed this as well, but having lived through 2011-2013 when the CAD = USD, Apple has 3-6 month lead times on pricing changes, almost always tied to product releases/store updates.

Maybe it'll get more expensive the next time they release a product, maybe it won't because the difference is currently negligible.

Yeah they probably want to avoid headlines about price increases for $30 and it would probably go in $49 increments.

The EU also has strong consumer protection regulations, such as a minimum 2 year warranty, that are factored into the price. Also, prices from Apple resellers can be lower than what you get from Apple themselves, usually similar to Apple with an education discount.

They should have said: "Just get a used Mac Mini". You can literally get them from macsales.com for less than $100. The intel machines have not gotten much faster, but their prices have dropped dramatically.

You can't.

There is only 1 Mac Mini available with M1 CPU and it only has 8GB RAM - that's for $499 and if you add shipping to Europe and tax, probably it will work out closer to $1000 than $499.

Ain't no way shipping and taxes equal 100% of the product's price

Why? Shipping, VAT and all the customs fees will easily double the price of the product by the time it reaches your door.

VAT is 15-20%, customs 5-10%, shipping ~50€, fees for custom handling 10-20€.

It's pricy, but it's not going to double the price.

Even better - some countries have 0% import tax on computers (just VAT). I am not sure if this is an EU-wide regulation (I would expect so, because it is a single market), but in The Netherlands it's 0%.

I recently ordered a keyboard from Taiwan. I got charged the 21% VAT plus a few euro administration costs by the shipper. Mind you, I would have paid the same 21% VAT if I had purchased a similarly priced product in The Netherlands. So, you are down to shipping cost, many companies have different options. Sure, if you want something on your doorstep in 2-3 days, they are going to charge 80-90 USD/Euro shipping, that's simply what it costs.

So once upon a time my parents in the states sent me, a newly minted ex-pat living in the EU, a package for my birthday. It was mostly cheap plastic kitchen things, a couple of oven mitts and stuff like that. It went to customs. Not only did I have to haul my ass out to the airport, I was charged 120Euro for a box who's entire cost couldn't have been more than 30USD (and I'm being generous). I was informed that if i refused the package, my parents would be charged the full amount. So yes, it's easy to imagine that by the time you get the package in your hands, it costs more than 100% the products price.

That seems an expensive lesson in filling in the customs declaration. Gifts are exempt from customs duties and VAT if they're worth €45 or less, and exempt from duties but not VAT up to €150.

If you ignore a parcel or reject it, it should be returned to the sender.

Two years ago, I paid around €300 for a pair of original Haori from Japan. The shipping costs where around €60, which was expected, but the taxes and import fees added another €170 to the total expenditure. That's not 100% of the product's price, but it's damn close.

Customs duty on men's/boy's clothes is 12%, VAT is e.g. 24% in Finland.

  €360 * 1.12 * 1.24 = €500

Add on some sort of handling fee for the parcel company, e.g. €10, so it could easily be €150.

So you're telling me you've never shipped things internationally before? It happens way more than you, especially, would think

I have, countless times. I've shipped everything from small boxes to containers. If you're paying $500 on taxes on top of your $500 product, you're doing something wrong

You can't.

There is only 1 Mac Mini available with M1 CPU

He stated specifically Intel machines. The M1 isn't an Intel processor.

When I was commisioning El Camino Hospital in Mtn View, CA - we had a bunch of digital art that we paid ~$1,000,000 for for the campus... but the digital signage solution was still behind in delivery...

So I went an bout a bunch of mac minis with remote desktop and just looped the digital signage videos via VLC.

I had to do this in some of the salesforce offices I built - like 50 Fremont, Chicago, NYC...

Mac minis were great for the 'bandaid' -- but even then were over priced and a pain to manage...

But I personally do not think Ill be buying another mac object due to appl fking me when my machine was under recall for catching fire, and my machine..... caught fire....

And appl held the machine for two month while 'investigating' and refused to honor the recall because it took them two months to find a moisture sensor that had been set off at some point.

The machine caught fire in my bed while I was watching netflix.

Appls solution was "well you can buy a new machine to replace it at full price" (this was LITERALLY what they said to me in the Union Sq, SF flagship store.

In the past i've done the hackintosh thing with NUCs over mac minis. They are generally cheaper, faster and you can actually replace the ram/storage. With the advent of M1/2 though that will no longer be an option.

Looking there, what do you do with a 10yo Intel Mac Mini when Apple drops support for them (serious question)? If the answer is "load linux", then there are probably better intel based options.

You can use Open Core Legacy Patcher [0] to gain modern support for "unsupported" Macs.

[0] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/

Until they drop Intel support, presumedly. But looks interesting. Hopefully less painful than a Hackintosh.

$800 + tax (don't forget thats included in EU prices already) isn't exactly just "a couple hundred dollars" either. Stuff is more expensive, yes, sales tax is usually higher, but the example doesn't seem that extreme? Also depends a bit on how the exchange rate has wobbled right now.

And the RPi prices are through the roof everywhere. "Just get a Pi, they are cheap" is basically a pre-2020 sentiment.

> Electronics prices in the EU are simply crazy.

I remember being upset that the same laptop cost more in Australia than it did in the US, then I realized that it had a lot more to do with Australia's corporate tax rates. Turns out... companies do pass on taxes to the end purchasers.

It feels, and I don't mean offense here, that if the EU wants to tell companies which power plugs they can use, and stay heavy-handed with corporate tax rates, that people in the EU will need to just accept higher prices as the outcome of their leaders' actions.

Currency fluctuations, and corporate taxes explain all the price differences. Someone said "Oh it costs 7% more now than it did 2 years ago!" Gosh, compared to the rest of everything a price hike of only 7% seems like a really good deal over the last 3 years. =P (But I get we aren't used to tech prices ever going up over time.)

No company is in the business of giving things away, y'know? Anyway Apple just wants a profit of $X per unit. If your country adds a bunch of rules and costs, that's fine it's your right to self-govern and set whatever laws you want, but Apple is still going to get a profit of $X per unit.

Edit: Later today I'm picking up a laptop for a colleague who is coming in to town next week from an EU country. He wanted to buy it in the US since it was so much cheaper. Good timing on this post. (=

Exactly right. This assumption that physical goods can cost about same all across the world is hilarious. Tax policies, interest rates, inflation, exchange rates, local laws etc..etc cause so many things make items priced differently across geographies.

Funny how it happens to be the cheapest in the US, huh

That's because the US doesn't have VAT and lists prices without sales tax.

As the other posted mentioned, but also the US works damn hard to make sure we get our fill of cheap shit to keep us content and happy. There are tons of things that we literally tarrif at 0% that other countries hit much higher.

Add into that things like shipping costs in various areas, and it can all add up.

> He wanted to buy it in the US since it was so much cheaper.

He needs to declare it when he returns to the EU, and pay the same taxes. (Assuming it costs more than €430, which is the limit for bringing personal goods into the EU by plane.)

I understand that receipts are required by law, but in my experience, no one checks for them unless you leave your laptop in the box (or declare it). If you put it in a laptop bag or simply say that it's a work laptop, you will likely not be questioned. I have traveled to over 25 countries with a laptop and have never had any issues.

It seems that everyone buys laptops in the US and brings them home this way; whether they are in Australia, Costa Rica -- or even the EU -- on a personal level, nobody wants to pay more, especially not more taxes.

The only time I have paid import taxes was when I sent a used phone and laptop to a person on Reddit who needed them in Canada. Even though the devices were over five years old, the Canadian tax authorities wanted me to pay new retail prices for them. I paid the taxes so that the kid could receive the devices. I'm pretty sure I could have just declared them as having a value of $100, but by the time I got involved the kid had already said it was an "Apple Laptop" and the Postal Mounties just assumed a new sticker price. Frustrating.

The 16/512 M2 model lists in the US website for $1300, not sure about the previous model but doesn't look the prices are that different

It's not just EU it's anything beside US. Canada / Australia UK don't get US prices either.

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