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Comment by tectonic | Hacker News Reader

Just. Stop. Putting. Teflon. On. Everything.

Figuring out what does and does not have PFAS on it to protect my family is exhausting and infuriating. I’ve emailed with manufacturers, sent stuff to labs; basically, no one seems to know how much materials like this are used on every day products.

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It's not just teflon. It's most likely also going to be it's successors.

Its going to deemed safe for a while till it's not.

Most properties desired while at the same time being cheap and durable will leak and will not play nice and with our cells or hormone system.

Especially because the goal of most of these chemical is to be cheaper the cheap. (Otherwise we would just use glass)

Yes agreed. Teflon is shorthand for all of the fluorinated hydrocarbons in my mind. I know they’re not identical but they’re close enough and most if not all will end up being found to be toxic.

The problem is a lack of a precautionary principle— manufacturers can change one molecule and re-market their product and groups like the EPA have to do extensive research on each new variant to show danger. Molecules are assumed safe and marketable until shown otherwise by underfunded agencies. It’s insane.

>The problem is a lack of a precautionary principle— manufacturers can change one molecule and re-market their product and groups like the EPA have to do extensive research on each new variant to show danger. Molecules are assumed safe and marketable until shown otherwise by underfunded agencies. It’s insane.

I'm skeptical that would have made a difference. According to wikipedia teflon pans were introduced in the 1950s, and it was only until the last decade or so that the real dangers (ie. not just the fumes from it overheating) were known.

They are not close enough! You are destroying your messaging and activism by combining them in this way.

Tell a manufacturer "stop adding Teflon it's not safe" and they will laugh at you. Tell them "stop adding PFAS it's not safe" and they might actually listen.

> Teflon is shorthand for all of the fluorinated hydrocarbons in my mind.

That's a VERY un-smart thing to do!

Saying they are the same because of the molecule is like complaining salt is unsafe before it has chlorine in it.

This is what I said to my wife. She got some new pans that called themselves green and healthy because they weren't teflon. They made our food taste like plastic chemicals. I said to her that the way this works is that teflon was proven to be bad, so they just move onto some other compound that hasn't yet proven to be bad. At a certain point I'd rather say better the devil we know, or stainless steel and cast iron.

I switched to stainless steel pans and literally have no idea why I ever used "anti stick" (that always ends up sticking after a few uses).

The dishwasher has no problem cleaning my pans, no matter how sticky stuff gets.

I have been saying this for far too long. Surprisingly, after many legal battles the big chems like DuPont still grows every year. Guess that most people pay no attention to these subtle killers.

Simple clay and glass would work better but cost more and require more careful handling. Both of those prevent cost optimizers from considering them

Yeah and most ceramic solutions you have to be careful with the paint they use. There have been cases of issues in slow cookers.

Glass is safest and extremely long lasting but indeed more difficult to work with.

Honestly I have no idea why people think we're going to find a safe and equally effective alternative. Most of the PFAS in use are powerful surfactants that change the surface tension of water, break up the lipids in cell membranes, and otherwise interfere with almost all the chemical processes that make life life. Everything from cell walls to capillary action are directly effected by these molecules. The same features that cause them to bioaccumulate so well give them their incredible industrial properties.

> I’ve ... sent stuff to labs;

I really want more details here! Sounds super interesting.

Teflon. Is. Not. PFAS.

Stop lumping them into the same category, they are NOT the same.

Teflon is completely safe, PFAS is completely unsafe. It doesn't get more different than that!

What do you use to store food? I obviously need to go find some alternatives now.

Glass, metal, ceramic, old fashioned plastic. The problem is generally packaging materials not things like Tupperware or glassware.

See this site: https://www.foodpackagingforum.org/fccmigex

Yeah that's what I use as well, but I only use plastic for storing cold things like salad.

Glass containers are fantastic and usually cheap enough. Whether it's spice jars or leftover food containers, it all works great. Make sure the lids are also either glass, wood, or stainless steel.

The one "downside" is you do need adequate cushion if you're taking it on the go say for lunch or to a dinner gathering, but even a towel wrapped around suffice.

If you want recommendations, the Ikea 365+ glass containers are fantastic and very cheap. Again avoiding the "plastic lid" variant they have for extra measure.

I got glass containers with plastic lids because I figure the lid rarely contacts the food, and I always take it off to microwave... although now that I'm thinking about it, I usually put that plastic splatter guard thing over the container in the microwave which probably isn't much better.

Used to do the same. Thankfully there are glass splatter guards out there, some of them with plastic handles on the outside. More expensive than you would hope though, I suppose because it's such a niche use, but it's not as if you're going to be buying many glass microwave covers in one's lifetime!

I usually put a saucer or plate over the top!

I put a paper towel on food in the microwave to stop splatter. As a bonus, I've found a moist paper towel helps when microwaving leftovers that got dehydrated in the fridge.

> Make sure the lids are also either glass, wood, or stainless steel

Plastic lid is normally fine, plastics leech at high temperatures, you arent normally heating food with the lid on. .Even eith a fully steel container you need a bit of soft material lile silicone to ensure waterproof seal

Good point. I also generally dislike plastic lids because the "snap lock" mechanic always tend to go wonky. The bamboo lids with silicone edges tend to be the least hassle.

> If you want recommendations, the Ikea 365+ glass containers are fantastic and very cheap.

I beg to differ. The IKEA 365+ non-glass containers are fantastic. The glass ones don’t stack properly and tend to have little glass shards break off when unstacking them. I can imagine a v2 being better.

I don't think the glass containers stack well if you stack them separately from their lids, but I have the bamboo and glass ones and they stack flawlessly closed. I have high shelf space though so I know that's not an option for everyone.

I have a set of glass containers with tight sealing lids. A little heaver and doesn't pack together as small as plastic does when not in use, but it's a lot easier to clean

Not OP, but: glass with metal lids and silicon seals, or glass... with hard plastic lids. :|

I also keep my rices and legumes in bamboo boxes.

“ metal lids and silicon seals”

Are you in the US? I don’t think I’ve seen these around.

'ere ya go, mate:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0874HWG4Z

Ah, mason jars. I was mistaken and thought the comment was referring to larger, 1-2L food containers (which I’ve only seen with plastic/rubber lids).

I frequently order too much in restaurants on purpose to have leftovers. I'm gonna start bringing reusable glass containers.

Mailing manufacturers is a drop in the ocean. The only way to shut it all down is to implement a comprehensive ban on PFAS in all food-related products. In order to achieve this, several regulatory and legislative actions would likely need to take place.

can someone recommend a pan to make eggs in the morning without sticking or having to put tons of grease.

You don't need tons of grease, you just need the correct technique.

To make fried eggs in a non-nonstick pan? Of course you do. You need enough so it doesn't stick. There no technique that can rescue egg stuck to a pan.

The thing is, any more oil than that just stays in the pan. Fried eggs don't absorb oil.

So put plenty of oil in the pan, because it won't wind up on your plate. There's zero reason to skimp, otherwise you'll just get eggs that stick.

cast iron

Cast iron you can scramble and end up with a clean pan afterwards. Just have to let it heat up all the way first.

Cast iron works great for me. Another popular option is carbon steel. Both options require a bit of a learning curve as far as care/cleaning goes, but once you have a well-seasoned pan, eggs are easy.

You have the added bonus of being able to put them into the oven, and you can get a much better sear than on teflon.

Poach them or boil them if you don't want to add fat to fry them in. But are you sure that frying them in butter or lard is actually bad for you?

Just put tons of grease, cut excess elsewhere.

I use a stainless steel baking pan, line the insides with a foil square, and spray it with a little PAM. Put it in an air fryer for 10 minutes at 178C flip it and do the other side for 2 minutes at 160C.

We use one cast iron pan and just leave it on the stove. It's basically self-cleaning if you use cooking oil, just a wipe with a paper towel will get the burnt bits out from the previous meal.

You can create a perfect non-sticky surface on cast iron pans like this:

- clean well with strong soap and a metal sponge until it's one smooth silver surface

- put a few drops of flax oil on a paper and rub the pan with it (also inner sides)

- take off all excessive oil with a dry kitchen paper

- remove any non-metal handles from the pan

- open your windows

- heat your oven to the max and put the pan in for about 20 minutes

- repeat about 5 times

After using the pan, wipe with a kitchen paper. Maybe a little bit of warm water, better not. Never any soap.

Flax oil had been debunked over and over again. Just use canola.

If you don't want a non-stick pan?

Just use a stainless steel pan and a pat of butter.

There's no option to not use fat/oil if you don't want non-stick.

Cast-iron is not a great choice for eggs because it holds too much heat, so if your temperature goes too high up you can't bring it back down quick enough and your eggs will crisp/burn. And both cast-iron and carbon steel are a pain to maintain (keep seasoned and avoid rust). (Cast iron is ideal for other uses though, particularly searing meat, where holding heat is the main feature.)

Also, the idea that a cast-iron (or carbon steel) patina is somehow non-stick is a myth that keeps getting repeated. It's better than the raw metal (and therefore quite necessary for those materials) but it's nothing like an actual non-stick pan. Nowhere even close. And you still always need a normal amount of oil for cooking in them, in fact just for maintaining the patina.

The other day I tried making scrambled eggs in my cast iron pan for the first time in years. Turns out that years of use had finally got it to the point where the eggs actually cooked beautifully without sticking at all! I used butter, of course, but I'd have used the same amount of butter in any pan.

I recently switched to this guy: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000K9FKC4 and, after seasoning, I can still cook my eggs in a normal-amount of butter. It's not quite as easy as non-stick but getting better with use.

Last year I tried switching to stainless but it was just too much trouble for my daily egg cooking. I just never figured it out.

I use cast iron for many/most dinners but I wanted the sloped sides and reduced weight for flipping eggs.

I still use the non-stick occasionally for things like crepes but moving from daily use to weekly or less seems like a win.

Carbon steel is much better than cast iron! It takes some time to build up a nonstick coating (seasoning), but once you do fried eggs will glide around like they’re on ice.

I have a Mauviel that I love, but the Matfer Bourgeat is better for eggs because it doesn’t have the steel rivets on the inside of the pan. Both are made in France and cost like $70.

This is a solid explainer on carbon steel pans: https://youtu.be/-suTmUX4Vbk

Ceramic pans.

A well used cast iron pan with the proper technique will be just as non stick as teflon, and much more versatile.

If you version of cooking is "put anything in the pan at whatever temperature and expect it to not stick" then stay with teflon because nothing will save you

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