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Comment by PragmaticPulp | Hacker News Reader

What we describe colloquially as burnout has a lot of parallels to mild to moderate clinical depression. So much so that they both respond similarly to the most effective treatments. There is no singular cure, but a consistent regimen of exercise, bright light exposure, and social activity can produce incremental improvements over time.

What definitely does not help is using stimulants to try to push through. I feel like I’m seeing more and more social media posts from people who deepen their burnout by trying to use excessive caffeine intake (or stronger prescription stimulants) to try to ignore the warning signs and push on.

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Coffee and "energy drinks" like Red Bull does not give you energy. They borrow energy from you.

It is like overclocking your brain. Sometimes it is what you want, but it comes at a cost.

Caffeine easily creates a negative feedback loop where you consume it, then get less and lower quality sleep, and therefore need more caffeine to function at the same level, so you sleep even worse, and so on.

The main fixes I’ve found for myself are:

- Get a lot of exercise and sunlight (if possible) to counteract the caffeine’s effect on sleep.

- Resist the urge to have more caffeine than usual when tired. It works well as an enhancer to a well-rested brain, but when used to compensate for sleep deprivation, it’s counter-productive.

Second point is a great call out. I used to keep shoveling caffeine when I was younger and ended up having huge sleep problems (surprise) and a 26+ circadian rhythm. I’d quit for a month, then be back on it.

Eventually I figured out that a solid blast of cold brew in the morning and none the rest of the day worked better —- almost like medicine. Like you say, if I feel I need more then it’s a lifestyle problem.

i sometimes drink a single cup of tea in the morning now, but back when i was pushing hard, i would just buy cold brew concentrate and drink an espresso-sized amount in the morning. it was very effective at jump-starting the day and was strong enough that i didn't ever feel the need to keep consuming. it wore off by noon and that's when i would break fast and get some lunch. then i'd do non-demanding tasks in the afternoon.

i think a lot of people drink cups and cups of coffee because the first one just isn't strong enough. get a strong buzz first, get your shit done, and then let it coast down. probably why many europeans start with a strong espresso and asians drink less-caffeinated tea throughout the day. drinking coffee all day long seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Only having 1-2 cups of coffee between 10am and noon have been a very helpful personal rule

I love coffee, but I've determined that consuming caffeine negatively affects my sleep even 6-8 hours later. I agree with your fixes, though my own rule is simply to not consume anything caffeinated after 15:00.

How do you determine whether you have been burnt out?

Because for me stimulants have helped against the symptoms that are described for burn out. By that I mean things like lack of motivation, helplessness, frustration, anxiety, incapability to feel pleasure, cynicism, sense of failure, self-doubt, etc.

While stimulants have a withdrawal period, I prefer to have an option to be productive and motivated for a certain amount of time and then when I don't have to do anything, it's fine to comedown as opposed to being constantly in that depressive state of mind.

Because stimulants remind me that it's possible to feel motivated, essentially. Otherwise I would never feel motivated. It would be a constant grayness.

And I can learn from the mindset I was able to have while being under the effect.

I also do few weeks of breaks to reduce tolerance and dependency when times are easier.

For me it was serious black-outs and lots of migraines. The ones where you start seeing scintillating scotoma [0].

On top of that both anger and anxiety attacks, you know all the fun stuff.

Of course this is different for almost anyone but I’ve spoken with some folks who’ve had similar-ish symptoms.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma

Not everyone is equal. For what you say , talking everything at face value , you may have something that stimulates treat such as add/adhd and that may also mean more prone to depression or it’s slower burn dysthymia.

There are many confounders. To the extent the problem is caused by depression, the negative feedback loop of stimulants leading to poor sleep can actually have net positive effect (possibly only short to mid term, IANADoctor, this is not medical advice), because sleep deprivation seems to (in my experience, anecdotally confirmed from various sources) shut off depression symptoms faster than it shuts down your cognitive power.

Related: see also Ballmer Peak[0], which is particularly funny because the effect is, to a degree, real.

[0] - https://xkcd.com/323/

I'd say though that not all stimulants necessarily mess with sleep. I've been mostly using methylphenidate and it only messes with ability to fall asleep for the few first days when I'm back after a break. I do not have ADHD however, at least according to diagnostic tests. I have had depression and anxiety diagnosis though.

I do, and I'm prescribed methylphenidate (though I'm currently on a break). I agree, they don't mess with ability to fall asleep except early on (for me, it was literally on the first day, but man I was losing it after trying and failing to fall asleep the whole night). But they do let you get away with sustained 3-4h/day of sleep. Which eventually comes back to bite you.

How do you decide on your breaks? I have prescription too, but I usually use everything up within 70% of the time period and then 30% I have a break, which was not intended, but this is what I've been doing anyway. In a way it's good to have these breaks at least to understand dependence and tolerance.

So each month I have a period of a little over a week of break.

I didn't say the break was intentional :). I run out, but I figured I'll just wait until the next appointment and see how I take a prolonged break, because it's been years since I did a break longer than a day. The problem is, as a father of two small kids, my family life and professional life are in fierce competition for my mental faculties, so I never feel like I can "afford" a break. I do recognize it's an irrational and self-defeating thought, but if that realization could impact my behavior, I wouldn't be on stimulants in the first place ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

RE my break, I maybe had only a day of "withdrawal" that was more of a little panic mode, that lasted until I realized I'm really managing just fine, only maybe slightly less so. Week later, I was still managing fine - though everything was noticeably harder, and I was only compensating with habits developed since starting the treatment (and perhaps novelty of such long break itself).

I can vouch for the sunlight, exercise, and social interacfion. a week on a cruise in the carribean and I was BRIMMING with energy.

Counterpoint: honeymoon in Turkey and while I was brimming with energy on my way back, the moment I sat down to work again, I crashed to even lower level than I was before leaving for the vacation.

Strong agreement. Thermonuclear burnout is a medium weight depression Episode

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