Comment by philonoist | Hacker News Reader

Comment by philonoist | Hacker News Reader

I will not tolerate what @Zurrrrr writes

"It's baffling to me that India is putting so much money into being part of the next space race, when they still have such vast and prominent problems on the ground.

You could say that for many countries, but there is a difference in degree IMO."

Said every racist and ignorant ever. You think we don't have people who make cost benefit analysis before investing in such projects? We don't have parliament and budget sessions?

The payloads we deploy immensely help us socially and technologically advance. Do you know that?

Ed tech itself got eGyanKosh, Swayam, NPTEL, private teachings on govt. platforms so cheap that by next year about a quarter million adults will be uplifted out of poverty. That funding is given to satellites launched by ISRO. Did you know that?

Had it not been for ISRO, we wouldn't have had larger outreach of instant cash transfers and payments. Did you know that?

Had it not been for ISRO we wouldn't be able to fight societal superstitions or bring in public health education drives let alone dumb down power play of society by caste and gender. Do you know that?

That also includes targeted courses for farmers about endemic genetic problems, weather, pests to Artists about film-making. Did you know that?

Even the money we get to deploy other western country's payloads makes people lift out of poverties in a single digit of percentage of populations in a city for every year! Do you know that?

But no. A random pompous clueless stranger on the internet comes to an sweet intelligent discussion site and declares he is baffled and India should now hold a inter-ministerial meeting to stop space projects.

These people have been everywhere from NYTIMES cartoonists to HN unfortunately. I don't understand how should one ban from this site either.

You are not contributing to the intended discussion of this site relating to the link posted, but yourself. You just want to throw around how baffled you are and sleep back in your mother's basement.

You posted well over a dozen flamewar comments to this thread and broke the site guidelines egregiously. We ban accounts that do that. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and avoid this kind of thing in the future—regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are—we'd appreciate it.

I understand how provocative nationalistic flamebait can be, but that's a reason to take a step back and consciously not take the bait. Otherwise we end up in a downward spiral, as happened here.

I completely support India’s decision to develop a space program, and I’m a huge fan of the achievements of ISRO, it’s contribution to Indian society and the advances it’s made on a very constrained budget. The fact is though that any science or technology programme must be prepared to justify its existence and contribution to society. I’m right behind you in supporting that case, but it is entirely reasonable for that case to be questioned.

The US space programme has been questioned in almost exactly the same terms since its inception, without any hint of a racist motive. If it’s reasonable to expect NASA to justify its existence on a cost benefit basis, I think it’s reasonable to question any space programme on that basis. I don't think it’s reasonable to infer racism in this case when there was no specifically racist content in the comment.

If we’re going to convert skeptics into supporters, the way to do that is respectful reasoned argument, not impugning their motives for even asking the question.

You don't question an answer-to-the-same-question without bothering to read the said answer first, right?

That is what is happening with @Zurrrrr guy. In fact, he is not questioning. He is just implying inefficiency and opinionating on inferior problem solving skills of India on things he won't cite his research on. That is what makes it racist.

When US was cross questioned about cost benefit analysis and comparative budge analysis, it was promptly done so by NGOs and UN backing up with how that strategy is flawed. But US was hell bent on prestige of being first in space and that reply was apparent and open to criticism.

There was no deeper prodding/questioning into the specifics or support of arguments by @Zurrrrr here. There was just a quick judgmental attitude which made me claim prejudice in him. I urge you read his comment again.

Making someone specifically racist comment is not the bar to judge. Why would someone educated make it so blatant in 2023? Racists will always incorporate euphemisms and innuendos among many other tools to crystallize their thought of racism.

Yeah reading his other comments you have a point. How stopping the space programme would help solve ‘rape culture’ isn’t exactly obvious to me. Are there any countries that solved a sociological problem by not having a space programme? Seems daft, and quite possibly maliciously so.

You know, I was too spaced out to think, but after reading your comment, I looked at the bigger picture. I had a good laugh, thanks man.

Thank you! It's ridiculous to accuse anyone who does so of being racist or ignorant IMO.

The one who you are thanking also wrote this comment just below - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35409316

I'd like to shift the tone of this discussion from vitriolic to something more captivating.

Why Explore Space? - https://lettersofnote.com/2012/08/06/why-explore-space/

Here is an interesting letter by Ernst Stuhlinger, then an associate director of science at NASA's MSFC, written to a nun in the 1970s. He explains the crucial role of space exploration in a country's growth. This topic sparked some engaging conversations on HN in 2012 and 2015:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8917045

When I see people make comments like that, I always wonder if they've done the maths of dividing the cost of whatever programme by the number of people in the country. Given India's population, it probably wouldn't amount to much per person, even if you could magically give it out.

It's 1.9 billion USD divided by 1.4 billion people or 1.35 dollars per person.

The international poverty line is $2.15 per day. The GDP per capita in India is $2.2k which means the program costs the average Indian 0.06% of their wages or less than a day at the poverty line and this doesn't even account for progressive taxation where mostly middle class and above Indians pay the taxes that fund the space program.

> racist and ignorant

> random pompous clueless stranger

> sleep back in your mother's basement

> sweet intelligent discussion site

You're certainly not acting like you're interested in keeping this space "sweet and intelligent"

Well, my apologies. I became testy and had to blow off the steam. I felt like exploding.

I can't be fighting a fellow bully and simultaneously be a student participating in group discussions in classroom when it comes to arseholes like the above.

This one was the first or maybe second from my side since 2014. You see, I couldn't have imagined this rude surprise of racism at HN. It felt so personal, even though there is no abnormal attachment to my country, I felt I had to give him a good earfull.

I have nothing against comments of criticism like these, even though coming from a fellow Indian, you see - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35407658

It doesn't feel like I got blew by my own people reading that comment. It didn't knock the wind out of me. It didn't make me insecure.

Not to mention the skills and industrial development that comes with these mega projects. That sort of stimulation benefits other industries for generat.

The cost effectiveness of these kind of programs is really interesting. It is normal to assume that space is super difficult and this plays into the geeky pride we all have. It is literally rocket science! And then we all get depressed when they go a little over budget or are late. We compare the program to an idealised view of excellence that only exists in our heads. But compared to other human endeavours science and engineering is unreasonably effective. It can break through the mess of human conflict and pettiness that holds us back. It is a great mechanism for getting people to work together for a common cause and we desperately need that. The mission objective is secondary to that.

I agree with your rational conclusion, India should continue to invest in science, technology and space. It's the way to go, more players in space the better.

That said, the sentiment isn't unique to India, and NASA is questioned the same since forever. "Will not tolerate" isn't something that one should feel or write against an opinion, even when presented in a sarcastic way. Make fun of it, argue against it, or ignore it, after all India isn't going to stop its space program because someone in NYT published a cartoon.

Ugh, yeah. I will take your suggestion to heart man. Thanks.

Make fun of it. Argue against it. Ignore it.

You make good points. And regardless of how the person you're replying to commented, IMHO you should reduce the amount of snark in your reply.

Otherwise, you're really stooping down to the same level.

I heard this exactly how most Americans reacted to black people fighting for their rights.

Thanks man. It is because of people like you I grow matured. I will remember this to by heart.

US wants to go back to the moon to put the first woman and PoC on it lol. Talk about spending billions of dollars for a token image.

Somehow when Murica does it we should all cheer for it as a great ray of hope for all humanity. Anyone else, there's a long line of "umm, actually..." guys. They just can't accept that a non communist, democratic country can compete with them

> US wants to go back to the moon

... meanwhile there are people shitting on the streets of San Francisco (seen with my own eyes), and people OD-ing (as in dying from drugs) on the streets of San Francisco, and homeless people camped on the sidewalks by the 1000s in cities like San Francisco and LA.

And yet nobody bats an eye when America "wastes" money on going back to the moon.

People have been complaining about NASA for decades.In The decade of the apollo missions many people in the civil rights movement were against spending 20b to send someone to the moon and today those same arguments still stand and many people still voice them. Maybe your circle is to small and you haven’t been exposed to diverse opinions.

Space program has been taken over by DEI administrator class, just like every other institution.

you don't ban people for their opinions in free democracies, how so ever absurd and outrageous they may be. Probably you come from a country where people are banned for their views and opinions. But that is not what a free society does.

No world leader is going to read any racist rant on internet and make decision out of it, so chill.

Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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